How are these Great Beings explained?

InvestigateTruth said:

But why would not you use Wisdom of God? His wisdom is higher than others. No?

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Who says Hindus of my school and others aren't using wisdom of God? In Hinduism, it's all God. God permeates everything. Wise men are of God, and so are you and me. It's just that we don't believe in manifestations, prophets, and most especially, infallibility. There are hundreds of saints and sages that were at least as wise or wiser than your so called 'manifestations'. Why pick 9 select ones and call them special? Besides that, from their own writings, some of the stuff some of them said certainly didn't make them very special, let alone infallible.

RoaringSilence said:

welcome to hinduism !! you are finally hindu . it took you long but this is what we say from day 1 ... happy birthday !!

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See the wonder when one looks for what unites us God is all good.

May you always be very happy, regards Tony

Carlita said:

My question earlier that you completely bull dozed is, how do you think I'm making you compromising your beliefs by asking you to learn from other people without comparing their differences to your beliefs?

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Carlita, rest assured that I do not feel you are compromising my beleifs, it is only I that does that, too often unfortunately.

All our thoughts spring from a source. The source is our own self, or the source is from a higher purpose.

We all learn when we pursue thoughts generated from the later.

What a great day to arise to!

May you always be happy, regards Tony

Vinayaka said:

So, one of the bigger problems I have with Baha'i' and your observations about other faiths, is that you look at all the wars and rightly criticise, but these wars are almost entirely by the two Abrahamic faiths directly preceding yours, according to Baha''i teachings. In other words, there is a massive generalistion going on.

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Vinayaka said:

You totally missed my whole point, or ignored it. The world's major disunity was caused by Christianity and Islam, which were more recent. Progressive revelation does not explain that.

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This may be of interest

"Is Religion the Cause of Most Wars?

By Rabbi Alan Lurie
There are many common misconceptions about religion that are often taken as unquestioned facts, such as the idea that religious people are inherently anti-science, that a literal reading of holy texts is the “true” religious stance, that faith is incompatible with reason, and that all religions claim to posses sole and absolute truth.

While all these ideas are true for a minority of the population, they do not describe normative religious beliefs and practices for the majority of believers. It is understandable that these misconceptions persist, though, because they come from the loudest voices on the extremes, and like other polarizing positions in politics and culture are simplistic ideas that promote easy “us vs. them” thinking. But there is one common misconception about religion that is voiced often and consistently as an obvious truth — often by educated, thoughtful people —that is just not factually true: The idea that religion has been the cause of most wars.

In his hilarious analysis of The 10 Commandments, George Carlin said to loud applause, “More people have been killed in the name of God than for any other reason,” and many take this idea as an historical fact. When I hear someone state that religion has caused most wars, though, I will often and ask the person to name these wars. The response is typically, “Come on! The Crusades, The Inquisition, Northern Ireland, the Middle East, 9/11. Need I name more?”

Well, yes, we do need to name more, because while clearly there were wars that had religion as the prime cause, an objective look at history reveals that those killed in the name of religion have, in fact, been a tiny fraction in the bloody history of human conflict. In their recently published book, “Encyclopedia of Wars,” authors Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod document the history of recorded warfare, and from their list of 1763 wars only 123 have been classified to involve a religious cause, accounting for less than 7 percent of all wars and less than 2 percent of all people killed in warfare. While, for example, it is estimated that approximately one to three million people were tragically killed in the Crusades, and perhaps 3,000 in the Inquisition, nearly 35 million soldiers and civilians died in the senseless, and secular, slaughter of World War 1 alone.

History simply does not support the hypothesis that religion is the major cause of conflict. The wars of the ancient world were rarely, if ever, based on religion. These wars were for territorial conquest, to control borders, secure trade routes, or respond to an internal challenge to political authority. In fact, the ancient conquerors, whether Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, or Roman, openly welcomed the religious beliefs of those they conquered, and often added the new gods to their own pantheon....."

Regards Tony

Vinayaka said:

There are hundreds of saints and sages that were at least as wise or wiser than your so called 'manifestations'. Why pick 9 select ones and call them special?

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History has proved they have a timeless Message that penetrates and attracts hearts on a worldly scale. They are the great beings that all other saints and sages draw their Wisdom from, even if they do not attribute that Wisdom to a Mesenger of God.

The true and elightened Saints and Sages will all bow and submit to the Greater Wisdom.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

History simply does not support the hypothesis that religion is the major cause of conflict. The wars of the ancient world were rarely, if ever, based on religion. These wars were for territorial conquest, to control borders, secure trade routes, or respond to an internal challenge to political authority. In fact, the ancient conquerors, whether Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, or Roman, openly welcomed the religious beliefs of those they conquered, and often added the new gods to their own pantheon....."

Regards Tony

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Yes, I agree with you, Tony. Religion isn't the cause of most wars. Greed and ego, and the instinctive strata of mind is. I was just responding to this part of IT's post, and I'll quote it, (from 10592)

"Notice that how many wars, and conflicts there has been, and still there is among people of the world, only because of religious fanaticism. Look how many are still killing others because they see them as different, and belonging to a different religion."

In this he seems to generalise religions, when it was really just Islam and Christianity. There have been no comparable religious wars in Hindu or Buddhist history. Wars, yes, but not at the scale of the Crusades, or Islamic genocide in India. So your argument is with IT, not me.

But you're right. Most wars aren't primarily religious in nature, more likely the acting of single misguided despots, or two of them in competition. The solutions lie in sincere dialogue, and a commitment to ahimsa, in my opinion. That commitment can come form any faith, any culture, any man or woman, any human. We certainly don't need a single guiding light, and it starts with individuals like you and me.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

History has proved they have a timeless Message that penetrates and attracts hearts on a worldly scale.

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That's just false information. The last 3 in your selected 9 certainly aren't on any worldly scale. Gandhi, Reverend King, lots of sages are far better known than those three.

Vinayaka said:

That's just false information. The last 3 in your selected 9 certainly aren't on any worldly scale. Gandhi, Reverend King, lots of sages are far better known than those three.

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Vinayaka, what is being said here is, that if you look at the highest ideals of any people on any continent on earth in the time these great beings lived, they would only reflect what was offered by Gods Messenger. It is they that set the standard, all others thoughts are fed by these standards.

Holy books talk of New Heavens and New Earths and stars falling from the heavens when God gives His Message. This is what happens Spiritually.

In this age all elevated thought that can unite humanity, will but reflect what is in the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

This is testable. (People have and still win great aculades and noble awards and noble peace prizes for repeating and doing what is already found in the writings of Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Vinayaka, what is being said here is, that if you look at the highest ideals of any people on any continent on earth in the time these great beings lived, they would only reflect what was offered by Gods Messenger. It is they that set the standard, all others thoughts are fed by these standards.

Holy books talk of New Heavens and New Earths and stars falling from the heavens when God gives His Message. This is what happens Spiritually.

In this age all elevated thought that can unite humanity, will but reflect what is in the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

This is testable. (People have and still win great aculades and noble awards and noble peace prizes for repeating and doing what is already found in the writings of Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

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Yes, these are the Baha'i' beliefs, Tony. But they don't logically hold.

There were lots of times on this planet when no so called 'manifestation' was alive when people followed ideals of ahimsa. It's not limited to these 9. In fact, at any given time for the last 10 000 years probably, there would be peaceful people somewhere on the planet. History is incredibly diverse, so that's just highly likely. The earlier scripture I linked to, called the Tirukkural, an ancient Tamil ethical scripture dated around 200 BC is a great example. The weaver sage Tiruvalluvar wrote stuff that is applicable today. He was way before his time on many things. An example is his highly recommended lifestyle of vegetarianism. (Baha'i' still haven't done that with the same force as Tiruvalluvar did. I got invited fishing the other day, something unthinkable to me.) His stuff on families, politics, and lots more is far ahead than many people are today.

So my original answer to LH's query still stands. This is a debate forum, he posed a question, and I answered it, as did others. What you call 'manifestations' are wise men (that might be debatable, but I'll give it to you) among hundreds of wise men and women that have inhabited this planet throughout history. The 'manifestations' 'popularity' has nothing to do with their spirituality, but is due to circumstances, like how many people they convinced, how much those guys proselytised, and many other factors. Currently on this planet today there are many such wise individuals, some even making the same claims as your prophet did: infallibilty, avatar, etc.

Yes, those 'manifestations' are needed for a certain type of person living in a certain strata of consciousness. But that's not the same consciousness we all live in. Most of us don't live there, but in equally inhabitable cities of the mind.

CG Didymus said:

How many times is 1260 years or something that equals 1260 years mentioned? And every time it means how long Islam lasted?

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Did some homework List of 1260 years

First in Daniel 7:25, "time, times and a half". (3 ½ years = 42 months x 30 days = 1260 days = 1260 years), Then in Daniel 12:7, "time, times and a half".

Both these are a reference to the end times and the events that will transpire at the end of the Ages and foretell the Dispensation of Muhammad and the Kingdoms that exist at that time.

Daniel 12 all about the end times, why this was not clear is recorded in this same chapter in verses 8 & 9; 8 “I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be”? 9He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end....” (Revelation Opens the Seals)

Then the Prophecy to which Christ refers us back to is given; 11“From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

This is something adapted from the net to show these 3 Prophecies

Revelation 11:2, "42 months". (42 x 30 days =1260days =1260 Years)

Verse 3 tells us who “3And I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for a thousand two hundred sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

The Two Witnesses being Muhammad and Ali. Sackcloth is old clothing, or the religion will resemble the old religion of the Jews, which is a Law Based Religion.

Revelation 11:3, "1260 days". (=1260 years as above)

Revelation 12:6, "1260 days". (=1260 years)

Verse 5 tells us; “5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

This is the Message of Muhammad, Nation Building on Justice and Discipline.

Revelation 12:14, "time, times and a half". (3 ½ years = 42 months....1260 years)

Given again after more reference to the events of that time

Revelation 13:5, "42 months". (42 x 30 days =1260days =1260 Years)

This Chapter is the Revelation of Muhammad and the Kingdoms that existed at the time.

Personally I see one aspect of ‘The Beast out of the Sea’ in this chapter, is the Covenant of God given by Muhammad verbally, being disobeyed. Muhammad Appointed Ali as His Successor, but on His Death bed the elders decided He was too young and seized control. The Faith was split immediately. It is in this chapter the Beast 666 is mentioned, which we now know was the year 666.

Many are the explanations yet unexplored in the above passages

Regards Tony

InvestigateTruth said:

You know, in Zoroastrianism, there is a famous belief, that all it takes to be in the right path, is to have three things:
Good words, Good thoughts, Good deeds.
Thus, many say, this is all we need. We do not need prophets, religions, God,...etc.
But what is missed, is, 'How' to have good words, thoughts and deeds. We cannot just oversimplify things.
It is like saying, we need to be healthy, happy, and strong. True, but how?
It is really the details of the practices that can achieve the goal.
So, we all agree, peace and unity is an ideal goal. We should set aside religious fanaticism, believe in One Loving God. The big question is 'how'.
Bahais believe, for all these to happen, they need to practice a new way of life. As this age has its own conditions, thus we need a new way of life for this age. The problems and conditions of this age, are different than the older ages. The best guidance is from the All-knowing, most kind God.
He had given a new way of life in each Age. Once He gave this guidance through Krishna, another time through Moses, another time through Buddha, another time through Zoroaster.....all had come with a Guidance suitable for Their own Age. For this Age, Bahaullah has given all that is required for or guidance. The religious practices of each age is only suitable for its own time. When a new Time comes, a part of those guidance are no longer applicable. We need a new Law, a new Standard.

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Was the guidance really for an age, or for a region? Lots of people and cultures had religions that varied a little to a lot. For centuries most of them overlapped chronologically.

Baha'is talk about the "Adamic Cycle", but what does that have to do with all the other religions in the world that aren't part of the Abrahamic line of religions? Religions of India, China, Japan, all the tribal religions... the myth-based religions of the Greeks and Romans and others?

Take Christianity for instance, by the time it was known by all the people in the world, it didn't have a unified standard of laws and beliefs. What other religion except maybe Islam, spread to most all people of the world? And when they did, according to Baha'is beliefs, they didn't have the true teachings of the manifestation any way. And the worst of it, both those religions used force to convert people from other lands and cultures to their religion. They even outlawed the practice of the people's former religion.

Vinayaka said:

1) I definitely agree that it's not black and white. That's been one of my pints all along, after all.
2, 3) This does not make sense. If you look at the two main perpetrators of violence (Christianity and Islam) over the last 2000 years, each of those faiths adamantly claimed belief in one true God. It obviously didn't help. So many people killed for that one true God.

So, one of the bigger problems I have with Baha'i' and your observations about other faiths, is that you look at all the wars and rightly criticise, but these wars are almost entirely by the two Abrahamic faiths directly preceding yours, according to Baha''i teachings. In other words, there is a massive generalistion going on. This 'progressive' manifestation thing you have isn't progressive at all. It's regressive. Following your idea, Hinduism and Buddhism would have been even more violent than Christianity and Islam were, and if the pattern continues as you suggest, Baha'i' will be more violent yet. I'm not saying it will be, but you see the pattern. As we progressed through your so called manifestation, the world got worse, not better.

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The Bible talks about peace all the time and even has a command not to kill. But then the one true God orders his people to kill. Christianity doesn't have anything about fighting and killing in it that I remember, yet Christians fought holy, or unholy wars, and had the Inquisition torturing people and had witch hunts. Islam? Who knows? I suppose they get it from the Quran that if's okay to kill infidels, but I'm not sure.

So what was God doing all this time? Jews to told them to kill. Christians killed regardless of what God said in their NT. And Muslims kill. And now, finally, God comes up with a new plan... that it is time to announce that all religions are from him and not to kill each other? But... to also announce that all the religions have lost the true message... that all of them have gone off the true path... that now, one religion has the truth... and all the others have to surrender themselves to this new religion.

CG Didymus said:

The Bible talks about peace all the time and even has a command not to kill. But then the one true God orders his people to kill. Christianity doesn't have anything about fighting and killing in it that I remember, yet Christians fought holy, or unholy wars, and had the Inquisition torturing people and had witch hunts. Islam? Who knows? I suppose they get it from the Quran that if's okay to kill infidels, but I'm not sure.

So what was God doing all this time? Jews to told them to kill. Christians killed regardless of what God said in their NT. And Muslims kill. And now, finally, God comes up with a new plan... that it is time to announce that all religions are from him and not to kill each other? But... to also announce that all the religions have lost the true message... that all of them have gone off the true path... that now, one religion has the truth... and all the others have to surrender themselves to this new religion.

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The Abrahamic paradigm excludes the dharmic paradigm in its history. It's a mindset of denying that other people existed.

Unity in Diversity in Ancient India

(I personally disagree with much of this article, and much of Indian history is up for debate, but suffice it to say some of the social and religious ideas far outweighed anything that came from the west.) Ahimsa is just one example: Ahimsa - Wikipedia

Vinayaka said:

You don't need prophets, you just need wisdom. It is all over the place, if you look.

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Where's Zoroastrianism today? They probably didn't win enough wars and force people to convert to get big enough to have an impact on the world.

But actually, in a basic "Intro to the World Religions" course, I was taught that Zoroastrians believed in a good God and and evil god and the Good God would win in the end. That's very similar to Christians that believe that Satan is warring with God but will lose in the end. But why does God allow the evil god and Satan to exist in the first place? But that's how they explain why there is evil in the world.

Baha'is don't have a Satan or an evil god. All the bad stuff that happens is from the nice, benevolent, all-loving God. I guess blasting people with earthquakes and tsunamis and hurricanes is only a test to see how we do under adverse conditions. But it's kind of hard to grow spiritually when you're dead. And it's almost like these things are somewhat random on who they kill... except I guess God knows who and why.

InvestigateTruth said:

You are bringing up two concepts or subjects here.
One subject is the progressive revelation, and its effect, as Bahais believe. You are saying, if these Revelations were truly from God, and progressive, then why the world got worst, instead of getting better.
My reply: since the Progressive revelation is a Bahai belief, I have to state how Bahai Scriptures seem to explain this: Basically, in my view, it says that, the earlier revelations focused on unity at a lower level, and as time passed, it were progressed; meaning the early religions caused the units of families to be established, then the groups or tribes were appeared, and later on nations or countries. Bahais see all these , as the effect of progressive revelations. In another words, God taught first, Families to be generated through marriages. This is the lower level of unity. In the same way, when groups of families became united, tribes were created. In this age, it is time for a greater unity of mankind. So, Bahaullah has come to cause the earth be like one country and all mankind its citizens. In another words, Bahais see, all revelations has been successful to achieve its goal. The goal of previous revelations were not To unite all mankind, because its time had not arrived yet. In this age, it is time for unity of mankind.
You also bring up another subject, and that is the war between followers of religions. You attribute these wars to the teachings of the Prophets, whereas in Bahai view, the teachings of Prophets were not the cause of war. It was the actions of religion adherents which were opposite to the teachings of their Prophet. This however requires an investigation into the teachings of Prophets, and see how the behaviour of some of the religious people are contrary to the teachings of Prophets. In another words, the religions has been abused by many, who were the cause of war, not that the Religion itself were the cause.

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How many manifestations has there been? And how many years have people been on Earth? And it took all this time to get the unity of families, the unity of tribes, the unity of nation/states and now, finally, the planet?

Unfortunately, there has been massive civilizations that controlled large portions of the Earth. It wasn't so much their religions that brought unity... it was a large army. An army to conquer, an army to maintain control and power within, and an army to fight off other people trying to conquer them. What role did religion play in these great civilizations?

InvestigateTruth said:

But why would not you use Wisdom of God? His wisdom is higher than others. No?
This seems like when it is said to children they need a wise teacher. Some of them say, we don't need to go to school.

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Are there wise teachers in schools? As for God, that's what we are doing. Everyone says they have the real word of God. Baha'is say they have the latest one. Sorry, nice concepts to bring peace to the world, but a lot of the back story on how we got here has some holes in it.

Vinayaka said:

...The 'manifestations' 'popularity' has nothing to do with their spirituality, but is due to circumstances, like how many people they convinced, how much those guys proselytised, and many other factors...

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Exactly, where would Christianity be without Constantine. He ruled Rome, I think it was. He had a vision of a cross in the sky and won a battle. He made Christianity the State Religion. But what did Christianity believe and look like in those days? A little confused. Constantine made the leaders get their act together and decide what the truth was. Things like Jesus is God and the Pope is infallible and Jesus is the one and only way to God. That's the Christianity that got spread.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Did some homework List of 1260 years

First in Daniel 7:25, "time, times and a half". (3 ½ years = 42 months x 30 days = 1260 days = 1260 years), Then in Daniel 12:7, "time, times and a half".

Both these are a reference to the end times and the events that will transpire at the end of the Ages and foretell the Dispensation of Muhammad and the Kingdoms that exist at that time.

Daniel 12 all about the end times, why this was not clear is recorded in this same chapter in verses 8 & 9; 8 “I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be”? 9He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end....” (Revelation Opens the Seals)

Then the Prophecy to which Christ refers us back to is given; 11“From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

This is something adapted from the net to show these 3 Prophecies

View attachment 18772 Revelation 11:2, "42 months". (42 x 30 days =1260days =1260 Years)

Verse 3 tells us who “3And I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for a thousand two hundred sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

The Two Witnesses being Muhammad and Ali. Sackcloth is old clothing, or the religion will resemble the old religion of the Jews, which is a Law Based Religion.

Revelation 11:3, "1260 days". (=1260 years as above)

Revelation 12:6, "1260 days". (=1260 years)

Verse 5 tells us; “5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

This is the Message of Muhammad, Nation Building on Justice and Discipline.

Revelation 12:14, "time, times and a half". (3 ½ years = 42 months....1260 years)

Given again after more reference to the events of that time

Revelation 13:5, "42 months". (42 x 30 days =1260days =1260 Years)

This Chapter is the Revelation of Muhammad and the Kingdoms that existed at the time.

Personally I see one aspect of ‘The Beast out of the Sea’ in this chapter, is the Covenant of God given by Muhammad verbally, being disobeyed. Muhammad Appointed Ali as His Successor, but on His Death bed the elders decided He was too young and seized control. The Faith was split immediately. It is in this chapter the Beast 666 is mentioned, which we now know was the year 666.

Many are the explanations yet unexplored in the above passages

Regards Tony

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Thanks Tony, But you know I'm going to find something in there to question. Are you up to it?

Vinayaka said:

The Abrahamic paradigm excludes the dharmic paradigm in its history. It's a mindset of denying that other people existed.

Unity in Diversity in Ancient India

(I personally disagree with much of this article, and much of Indian history is up for debate, but suffice it to say some of the social and religious ideas far outweighed anything that came from the west.) Ahimsa is just one example: Ahimsa - Wikipedia

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I think you and I have said that the Baha'i Faith has a lot of similarities with Islam. Do you see any similarities with Hinduism? And even if there is one sect that you could point to that is based on a bunch of God-given laws, what do you do with the other sects? Just say that they are wrong? So to be progressive from one religion to another has to have some continuity. They don't have it and none of the Abrahamic religions have that continuity with Hinduism.

Vinayaka said:

Who says Hindus of my school and others aren't using wisdom of God? In Hinduism, it's all God. God permeates everything. Wise men are of God, and so are you and me. It's just that we don't believe in manifestations, prophets, and most especially, infallibility. There are hundreds of saints and sages that were at least as wise or wiser than your so called 'manifestations'. Why pick 9 select ones and call them special? Besides that, from their own writings, some of the stuff some of them said certainly didn't make them very special, let along infallible.

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9 is a special number to Baha'is. So they had to stop there. Actually, I think they had 8 and upgraded The Bab to get to 9.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

History has proved they have a timeless Message that penetrates and attracts hearts on a worldly scale. They are the great beings that all other saints and sages draw their Wisdom from, even if they do not attribute that Wisdom to a Mesenger of God.

The true and elightened Saints and Sages will all bow and submit to the Greater Wisdom.

Regards Tony

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Yeah, Great Beings like Adam. Everyone looks up to him... Not.