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The Bible declares that Jesus is God

Oeste

Well-Known Member
Hi again.........
Really!
Weight of evidence?
I tried to start at the beginning and got nowhere...... I suggested that we simply start with accurate names for disciples and Yeshua........... Nada.

Nada???

Here was Rick's response to your assertion, given days ago. Doesn't look like like "nada" to me:

This is a most ridiculous statement. You claim umbridge because we English speaking Christians use the English translation of the Bible that employs the English rendition of the Hebrew names.

"Some people claim that our Lord should not be referred to as “Jesus.” Instead, we should only use the name “Yeshua.” Some even go so far as to say that calling Him “Jesus” is blasphemous. Others go into great detail about how the name “Jesus” is unbiblical because the letter J is a modern invention and there was no letter J in Greek or Hebrew.

Yeshua is the Hebrew name, and its English spelling is “Joshua.” Iesous is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew name, and its English spelling is “Jesus.” Thus, the names “Joshua” and “Jesus” are essentially the same; both are English pronunciations of the Hebrew and Greek names for our Lord. (For examples of how the two names are interchangeable, see Acts 7:45 and Hebrews 4:8 in the KJV. In both cases, the word Jesus refers to the Old Testament character Joshua.)

As for the controversy over the letter J, it is much ado about nothing. It is true that the languages in which the Bible was written had no letter J. But that doesn’t mean the Bible never refers to “Jerusalem.” And it doesn’t mean we cannot use the spelling “Jesus.” If a person speaks and reads English, it is acceptable for him to spell things in an English fashion. Spellings can change even within a language: Americans write “Savior,” while the British write “Saviour.” The addition of a u (or its subtraction, depending on your point of view) has nothing to do with whom we’re talking about. Jesus is the Savior, and He is the Saviour. Jesus and Yeshuah and Iesus are all referring to the same Person.

The Bible nowhere commands us to only speak or write His name in Hebrew or Greek. It never even hints at such an idea. Rather, when the message of the gospel was being proclaimed on the Day of Pentecost, the apostles spoke in the languages of the “Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene” (Acts 2:9–10). In the power of the Holy Spirit, Jesus was made known to every language group in a way they could readily understand. Spelling did not matter.

We refer to Him as “Jesus” because, as English-speaking people, we know of Him through English translations of the Greek New Testament. Scripture does not value one language over another, and it gives no indication that we must resort to Hebrew when addressing the Lord. The command is to “call on the name of the Lord,” with the promise that we “shall be saved” (Acts 2:21; Joel 2:32). Whether we call on Him in English, Korean, Hindi, or Hebrew, the result is the same: the Lord is salvation.

You could start with the nativity story but I haven't seen a proposed birth date or explanation for the differing accounts.

You could explain why G-Mark describes an 11-12 month mission and G-John a 3 year mission?

You could explain why G-John's last passover week is totally different to G-Mark's.

You could explain how the resurrection is proved when the tomb was left for over a day?

Focus, Old Badger. We started with the assertion that the bible declares Jesus is God.

You see........ splurging the pages with waffle is not a scholarly approach to provenance. Short sharp bite-sized chunks win the day, but sadly these tend to show that Jesus was an insurrectionist would-be Meshiah rather than a Greek Christ!

This sounds like unsupported waffle that is totally unrelated to thread theme to me.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Nada???

Here was Rick's response to your assertion, given days ago. Doesn't look like like "nada" to me:





Focus, Old Badger. We started with the assertion that the bible declares Jesus is God.



This sounds like unsupported waffle that is totally unrelated to thread theme to me.
Look.....
Let us keep it simple.
Read the first line of the 'Lords' prayer....
Our Father, who art in heaven.......

Our Father, you see? That was a prayer for the followers of Yeshia BarYosef, Jews every one.
God was the father of the Jews, they were all the children of God.

Jesus never once claimed to be God.
And the Old Testament cannot help you either.
:shrug:
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
Nada???

Here was Rick's response to your assertion, given days ago. Doesn't look like like "nada" to me:

Focus, Old Badger. We started with the assertion that the bible declares Jesus is God.

This sounds like unsupported waffle that is totally unrelated to thread theme to me.

I am constantly amused at the majority of Unitarian, or Atheistic or other non-Christian responses that joined this debate. Amused and lamenting their hard-hearted blindness. While the title "The Bible Declares that Jesus is God" is a simple statement and the great many Scriptural quotations, joined with scholarly exegesis and sound syllogisms, no one, to the man, has directly interacted with them. Oh, they have expressed their feelings and repeated their echo-chamber objections but meaningful interaction is entirely absent. Did anyone refute any of the presentations with a reasoned, exegetical response? No. We watched them present rabbit-trails, red-herrings, misrepresentations, non-sequiturs, ad-hominems and just plain dishonest nonsense. Even going to the extent of refusing our own historic Trinitarian definition of the Trinity etc. One frequent Unitarian poster who, when constantly invited to go to the text, refused direct interaction. Instead chose only to regurgitate the errant, even heretical teachings of his cult. He finally just quietly disappeared because of his obvious, self-evident inability to refute or even directly engage the texts. So sad. Another poster who read the thesis of the debate: "The Bible Declares that Jesus is God", chose to post, not to undertake an attempt to disprove the thesis, but to change the debate topic entirely. Instead of being willing to undertake the proposed debate he diverted to a more self-manageable discussion for him.

Instead of "The Bible" he insisted on rejecting 65 out of the 66 books to an unspecified portion of 1Gospel, leaving it unspecified to enable him to dismiss any portion that does not agree with his personal, restrictive preference of course. He also dislikes any depth of truth or big words that may require some critical thinking, preferring, instead, to keep it simple with shallow musings, snippets or sound-bytes or perhaps acronyms in lieu of detailed, thought out arguments. Because, well, he has no appetite for acumen in serious subjects.

By constantly refusing to engage the Biblical texts presented as affirming the Deity of Christ and insisting that Jesus, Himself, must state that He is God in those words in the Gospel of Mark exclusively (which, of course, it doesn't so he'd claim victory never realizing that he committed the word-concept fallacy) he completely removes himself from the stated debate. To make matters worse he doesn't even realize his absurd position but continues to disparage us for being consistent, Biblical Christians adhering to logically offered, pertinent, Scriptural evidence coupled with scholarly support. Because he rejects the debate thesis and wanders off into his own non-Christian belief system and because of never actually engaging with a direct, reasoned response like the rest who opposed, he has self-inflicted his own demise in losing the debate.

I am not so naive to hope (without the direct intervention of the third Person of the trinity - the Holy Spirit - and prayer) that those who so strenuously "suppress the knowledge of the truth in unrighteousness" "professing to be wise, they became fools" (Rom.1:18-32) that such observably hostile men and women to the Person and work of Christ, as recorded in His written revelation, will be convinced because of the efforts exercised in a debate. It is for the questioning viewers - for those who compare the opposing rejoinders and honestly determine who gives the most rational, compelling, even persuasive argument in this debate which is focused on logical reasoning applied to the Biblical record that affirms Christ's divine nature.
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
Any one who cares about entering Gods kingdom will check facts--like the ones I presented--they are fact.
It has 0 to do with what the JWs do.. Its Hebrew language fact. Your scholars know its fact--they do 0. It exposes their religions as false blind guides. Those religions are pulling in billions.

I believe calling your beliefs fact when you haven't proven them doesn't hold any water with me.

I believe I am already in God's Kingdom and I believe what can be proven and what God says. You should try it.

I believe every group falls short just some like the JWs shorter than others.
 

Mister Silver

Faith's Nightmare
The conclusion is obvious throughout these few verses

The circular reasoning of using biblical scripture proves nothing in relation to jesus being god or divine. The bible only has any merit if someone chooses to have religious faith in what is written in it, because reasonable minds know the difference between fiction and reality. The fact of the matter is that there is no way any religious individual can provide evidence for his religious faith, for if there was any evidence outside of a primitive book of fairy tales one would not need to rely upon religious faith to believe in its contents. The truth is that the bible is no more evidence for the divine than creationism is evidence of science.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
The circular reasoning of using biblical scripture proves nothing in relation to jesus being god or divine. The bible only has any merit if someone chooses to have religious faith in what is written in it, because reasonable minds know the difference between fiction and reality. The fact of the matter is that there is no way any religious individual can provide evidence for his religious faith, for if there was any evidence outside of a primitive book of fairy tales one would not need to rely upon religious faith to believe in its contents. The truth is that the bible is no more evidence for the divine than creationism is evidence of science.

Everyone begins their argument from a circular position. Everyone begins with their ultimate authority. For Christians that is the self-attesting Word of God. To what do you rest upon as your final authority to truth claims?
 

Mister Silver

Faith's Nightmare
Everyone begins their argument from a circular position. Everyone begins with their ultimate authority. For Christians that is the self-attesting Word of God. To what do you rest upon as your final authority to truth claims?

The circular reasoning position is a fallacy; and, therefore, illogical. Not everyone begins their arguments with it, or else they'd immediately be called out on it. The word of god is not an ultimate authority because the bible was written by men; there is no evidence that it was divinely inspired. Theists claim many things in accordance with the bible, yet they can never provide the empirical evidence to back their claims because the bible is not evidence of anything except that men had imaginations even back then. As for what I consider the final authority on something being true, it has to be scientifically backed through an empirical process.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
The circular reasoning position is a fallacy; and, therefore, illogical. Not everyone begins their arguments with it, or else they'd immediately be called out on it. The word of god is not an ultimate authority because the bible was written by men; there is no evidence that it was divinely inspired. Theists claim many things in accordance with the bible, yet they can never provide the empirical evidence to back their claims because the bible is not evidence of anything except that men had imaginations even back then. As for what I consider the final authority on something being true, it has to be scientifically backed through an empirical process.

You must distinguish between a circular position and a viscous circle being a fallacy. More tomorrow.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
The circular reasoning position is a fallacy; and, therefore, illogical. Not everyone begins their arguments with it, or else they'd immediately be called out on it.

You are correct circular reasoning is a logical fallacy. However when you attempt to justify your allegation with:

"The circular reasoning of using biblical scripture proves nothing in relation to jesus being god or divine. The bible only has any merit if someone chooses to have religious faith in what is written in it, because reasonable minds know the difference between fiction and reality. The fact of the matter is that there is no way any religious individual can provide evidence for his religious faith, for if there was any evidence outside of a primitive book of fairy tales one would not need to rely upon religious faith to believe in its contents. The truth is that the bible is no more evidence for the divine than creationism is evidence of science."

You offer no demonstration of a circular argument. The circular argument would have to look something like:

The Bible says that God exists. God exists therefore the Bible is true.

The word of god is not an ultimate authority because the bible was written by men; there is no evidence that it was divinely inspired.

This is an A Priori argument which violates your stated ultimate standard of truth. A Priori - "based on theoretical deduction rather than empirical observation. relating to what can be known through an understanding of how certain things work rather than by observation"

The Word of God absolutely can be and is the final authority of knowledgeable Christians just as science can be and is your stated final authority.
There is internal evidence: "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;" 2 Timothy 3:16

If there cannot be an ultimate authority because "written by men" then where does that leave science which is wholly undertaken by men?

Theists claim many things in accordance with the bible, yet they can never provide the empirical evidence to back their claims because the bible is not evidence of anything except that men had imaginations even back then.

You have overlooked the entire fields of Archeology in excavations and manuscript evidence:

"There is more evidence for the Bible’s authenticity than for any literature of antiquity. Textual analysis begins with historical investigation, beginning with the latest documents and working backward. As evidence develops, the data is evaluated against other sources. The record is then checked for consistency of information, and the claims are analyzed as if it were a legal case, looking for credible testimony with cross-examination. There is an enormous amount of evidence for authenticity of the biblical manuscripts.

The New Testament was written in first century A.D. There are some 25,000 early manuscripts in existence, almost 6,000 of which (many being only recognizable fragments) are Greek texts and the others being early translations of the Greek New Testament. The earliest textual evidence we have was copied not long after the original. In contrast:

Caesar’s Gallic Wars was written in the first century B.C. There are only 10 manuscripts in existence. The earliest textual evidence we have was copied 1,000 years after the original.
Aristotle’s Poetics was written in the fourth century B.C. There are only 5 manuscripts in existence. The earliest textual evidence we have was copied 1,400 years after the original.
There are many more writings of the Church Fathers quoting sections of Scripture; we could reconstruct the entire New Testament from their writings alone. There were millions of man-hours spent in cross-checking the manuscripts. There remains only 1 percent of all New Testament words about which questions still exist; no questionable passage contradicts any Bible teaching." icr.org

Let's not forget that science, your final standard of truth, once determined as fact that leeches and bloodletting healed sickness by balancing "humours". Lobotomies cured mental illness. Phrenology was a science. The earth was the center of the universe. The sun revolved around the earth. The earth was flat. On this last one it must be noted that in the book of Isaiah ch.40 v.22 verifies that the earth was round:
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

And this was written 8th century B.C.

"And then come engineers. Thomas Edison (1847-1931), one of the greatest inventors of all time (electric light, phonograph, etc), reportedly insisted that alternating current would never work for the distribution of electricity (he was working on his own "dynamo" direct current system of electricity distribution). Turns out, this incredibly bright man was also incredibly wrong.

And who could ever forget the engineers of the early 1900s who confidently insisted that not even God Himself could sink the Titanic? And then sinking on its very first voyage.

Finally, the miscalculations of scientists would not be complete without a brief mention of evolutionists, who have—in their feverish efforts to fill in the cavernous Fossil Record—provided us a seemingly endless "Error Record" of frauds and embarrassments.

One of the latest incidents was the shameful case of so-called "Piltdown Chicken." The "chicken fossil"—proudly displayed by the National Geographic Society in 1999 as the elusive missing link between birds and dinosaurs—had been concocted by an enterprising Chinese farmer who, using all-too-familiar evolutionary reconstructive imagination, simply glued a bird fossil together with the remains of a nearby lizard tail.

Of course, the find was later revealed to be fraudulent, but not before experts had already dubbed the "chicken" Archaeoraptor liaoningensis, purchased it for $80,000, and insured it for an astounding $1.6 million." Numerous bloopers have yet to teach scientists "lessons"—ReligiouslyIncorrect.org

Talk about imagination and fairy tales!

The process of science, according to the Christian worldview, is the discovery of the facts of the universe which verify that it was formed with the governing laws of nature. Laws, by the way, are immaterial, universal, transcendent, and unchanging. Including the Laws of Physics and the Laws of Logic - which we both try to keep. Laws cannot be accounted for in neither the "Scientific" explanation of the "Big Bang" or the "God Particle" beginning of the universe nor in Materialistic, Naturalistic, Darwinian Evolutionary theory of the existence of life.

Only the Christian worldview gives a rational account of what exists including moral absolutes.

To use the Word of God to support truth claims because Scripture is the Christian's final authority is no more fallacious than for an Atheist to use scientific evidence to support his truth claims because his final authority is science. No circular reasoning fallacy here. Funny thing is you offered no scientific evidence to support any of your assertions.

Science:
1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences. 2. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.

As an Atheist this is your stated ultimate authority and the method used for obtaining knowledge. For you to go outside of what you can observe and reproduce in the lab regarding what lies beyond the material universe you must borrow from my worldview to engage in a debate using the immaterial, universal, transcendent, and unchanging laws of logic. By necessarily borrowing from the Christian worldview you, unwittingly, confirm its validity.
 
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Oeste

Well-Known Member
upload_2017-9-8_20-32-31.png


I just felt tagging it as another "Winner" wouldn't be enough. This was very well stated and this
has been a thoroughly enjoyable thread.

Thank you!
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
This post is intended to address a subject which has been argued a number of times. I have read some and briefly engaged some of those who reject the deity of Christ because they say that the Bible does not state the words “Jesus is God”. I believe this argument is fallacious, violating the word-concept fallacy. Also it demonstrates a presupposed bias when so many Scriptures identify Christ as divine, attributing to Him many of the divine names given to God. I do not intend to deal with the many New Testament texts ascribing Old Testament references of Jehovah to Jesus Christ. Nor the many references equating Him as Lord in the N.T. with Kurios (Lord) in the Septuagint. I will only use the Apostle John in this post in whose writings reveal the Deity of Christ.



Revelation 19:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

everything is created from the word of god; including Jesus. Christ is eternal. We see the word of God as things are being created in Genesis 1

jesus is not called god in the bible for a reason. he's an aspect of God. God is eternal. Jesus the person is not eternal.

Romans 8:11
11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

that Spirit is the Holy Spirit, or Christ's Spirit.

Romans 8:10
But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.


This section in Revelation is dealing with the coming of Christ. The Apostle John assigns a descriptive name to Jesus “The Word of God” (Gr. ho logos ho theos). This identifying Christ as “Logos”, the “Word”, is also used by John in the Prologue to his Gospel: John 1:1-18
a revelation doesn't occur outside/apart from self. it occurs within self. just as jesus said it would.

Matthew 24:27
For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. a flash of insight.

Son of Man is self because all are the son's of God. Colossians 3:11

the kingdom of God is within us, or comes from within us. it is a state of mind.
 
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Oeste

Well-Known Member
everything is created from the word of god; including Jesus. Christ is eternal. We see the word of God as things are being created in Genesis 1

Apparently I'm not seeing Colossians 3:16, as shown in the hyperlink, quite like you do. Can you explain how this verse indicates Jesus is created, and how you separated Jesus from the Word?
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Apparently I'm not seeing Colossians 3:16, as shown in the hyperlink, quite like you do. Can you explain how this verse indicates Jesus is created, and how you separated Jesus from the Word?


i didn't indicate anything as being separate from the Word. I indicated that everything manifested is the WORD of God.

Colossians 1:16
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

lest you forget, genesis 1:2 indicates how everything is made by the movement of the Holy Spirit upon the waters.

jesus was begotten/created like heaven and earth, you and me, sun and moon, male and female, et al.

christ wasn't.

christianity is a cult of personality. jesus wasn't attempting to create a new religion. he was attempting to return those, who had wondered to far and to wide, back through the narrow WAY. which is based on action and not on appearances. God is not a respecter of persons. that doesn't excuse Jesus, or anyone.
 
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Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
I am constantly amused at the majority of Unitarian, or Atheistic or other non-Christian responses that joined this debate. Amused and lamenting their hard-hearted blindness. While the title "The Bible Declares that Jesus is God" is a simple statement and the great many Scriptural quotations, joined with scholarly exegesis and sound syllogisms, no one, to the man, has directly interacted with them. Oh, they have expressed their feelings and repeated their echo-chamber objections but meaningful interaction is entirely absent. Did anyone refute any of the presentations with a reasoned, exegetical response? No. We watched them present rabbit-trails, red-herrings, misrepresentations, non-sequiturs, ad-hominems and just plain dishonest nonsense. Even going to the extent of refusing our own historic Trinitarian definition of the Trinity etc. One frequent Unitarian poster who, when constantly invited to go to the text, refused direct interaction. Instead chose only to regurgitate the errant, even heretical teachings of his cult. He finally just quietly disappeared because of his obvious, self-evident inability to refute or even directly engage the texts. So sad. Another poster who read the thesis of the debate: "The Bible Declares that Jesus is God", chose to post, not to undertake an attempt to disprove the thesis, but to change the debate topic entirely. Instead of being willing to undertake the proposed debate he diverted to a more self-manageable discussion for him.

Instead of "The Bible" he insisted on rejecting 65 out of the 66 books to an unspecified portion of 1Gospel, leaving it unspecified to enable him to dismiss any portion that does not agree with his personal, restrictive preference of course. He also dislikes any depth of truth or big words that may require some critical thinking, preferring, instead, to keep it simple with shallow musings, snippets or sound-bytes or perhaps acronyms in lieu of detailed, thought out arguments. Because, well, he has no appetite for acumen in serious subjects.

By constantly refusing to engage the Biblical texts presented as affirming the Deity of Christ and insisting that Jesus, Himself, must state that He is God in those words in the Gospel of Mark exclusively (which, of course, it doesn't so he'd claim victory never realizing that he committed the word-concept fallacy) he completely removes himself from the stated debate. To make matters worse he doesn't even realize his absurd position but continues to disparage us for being consistent, Biblical Christians adhering to logically offered, pertinent, Scriptural evidence coupled with scholarly support. Because he rejects the debate thesis and wanders off into his own non-Christian belief system and because of never actually engaging with a direct, reasoned response like the rest who opposed, he has self-inflicted his own demise in losing the debate.

I am not so naive to hope (without the direct intervention of the third Person of the trinity - the Holy Spirit - and prayer) that those who so strenuously "suppress the knowledge of the truth in unrighteousness" "professing to be wise, they became fools" (Rom.1:18-32) that such observably hostile men and women to the Person and work of Christ, as recorded in His written revelation, will be convinced because of the efforts exercised in a debate. It is for the questioning viewers - for those who compare the opposing rejoinders and honestly determine who gives the most rational, compelling, even persuasive argument in this debate which is focused on logical reasoning applied to the Biblical record that affirms Christ's divine nature.

For Unitarians like @kjw47, other non-Christian adherents like @oldbadger, and Atheists like @Evangelicalhumanist who wish to actually participate in debates with direct material interactions and not just offer subjective opinions based upon emotionally driven reactions that offend their sensibilities, post 1126 should help to steer you in a direction that is actually a relevant method of argumentation.
 
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Riders

Well-Known Member
The real truth of this thread seems to be this.This thread was started with th announcement that the bible declares Jesus is God.

It seems to be taken to the level of well if the bible declares it it must be true.

Then you guys who started just seems to want to declare yourselves the winner the whole time without a lot of debate just declare yourselves winner upfront .

There maybe passages that do say Jesus is God I know of one or 2. But the problem here is this.

It matters little to nothing what the bible says at all if the bible has not been proven true.



There's more proof that the bible is false not translated right. Without that belief in the bible your thread is nothing.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
I believe calling your beliefs fact when you haven't proven them doesn't hold any water with me.

I believe I am already in God's Kingdom and I believe what can be proven and what God says. You should try it.

I believe every group falls short just some like the JWs shorter than others.


Yes ALL mortals make errors, the wise look for them and make correction. The ones making correction will prove right in the end.
When one sits and watches their human brothers suffering daily, its hard to call that--being in Gods kingdom. Gods kingdom is a cure all, you aint seen nothing yet.( BTO) God only rested from creating as well. I am positive he has wonderful new things in store for mortals in his kingdom. He requires one to learn and apply--TRUTH( John 4:22-24)--it is now abundant( Daniel 12:4)--the ones who made correction have it.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
What does Jesus mean when He said in John 8:56--"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad"

In the book of Genesis we'll get a clear picture how Abraham saw the day of Jesus and was glad.

Note that as Jesus carried the cross on his back and God the Father gave Jesus his Son on the cross.

Note that in Genesis 22:6--13.
That here we find Abraham would give his son Isaac as did God the Father gave his Son Christ Jesus on the cross. And Isaac carrying the wood on his back, as did Jesus carrying the cross on his back.

This is how Abraham saw Jesus day and was glad.

Note that on the mount to where Abraham went to make Isaac as an offering, is the same mount where Christ Jesus would be offered upon the Cross.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member

Apparently I'm not seeing Colossians 3:16, as shown in the hyperlink, quite like you do. Can you explain how this verse indicates Jesus is created, and how you separated Jesus from the Word?

i didn't indicate anything as being separate from the Word. I indicated that everything manifested is the WORD of God.

Actually you did…you stated Jesus was created from the Word of God. Jesus is the Word and not a creation of it:

Let's look at the verse you quoted:

Colossians 1:16
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Notice it states ALL things were created, and yes, this includes the visible and invisible. If Jesus were created he would have had to create himself. If Jesus is a “manifestation” then the manifestation created itself.

It's important to reconcile this verse before we jump to other verses. All means all. Not some things were created, not most things created, and certainly not all [other] things created as Organizations like the Watchtower spuriously claim.

jesus was begotten/created like heaven and earth, you and me, sun and moon, male and female, et al.

christ wasn't.

Again you appear to split Jesus, first from his identity as the Word and now his identity as the Christ. Jesus is the Word and he is also the Christ.

"but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." John 20:31​

Granted the Greek monogenes has been translated as begotten in English, but it doesn't carry the same connotation as the Greek.

Jerome translated monogenes as unigenitus (one begotten) in the Latin Vulgate which was later translated as begotten in English. In the original Koine Greek, monogenes meant “unique”, “without peer” or “one of a kind”. You’re taking a Greek word which was later translated into Latin and now translated as “begotten” in English, then inserting our English meaning back into the Koine Greek text. This is where good exegesis comes in.

christianity is a cult of personality. jesus wasn't attempting to create a new religion. he was attempting to return those, who had wondered to far and to wide, back through the narrow WAY. which is based on action and not on appearances. God is not a respecter of persons. that doesn't excuse Jesus, or anyone.

I'd have to disagree with this. Jesus IS the way, not a pointer or herder to the way.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
Actually you did…you stated Jesus was created from the Word of God. Jesus is the Word and not a creation of it:

Let's look at the verse you quoted:


Notice it states ALL things were created, and yes, this includes the visible and invisible. If Jesus were created he would have had to create himself. If Jesus is a “manifestation” then the manifestation created itself.

It's important to reconcile this verse before we jump to other verses. All means all. Not some things were created, not most things created, and certainly not all [other] things created as Organizations like the Watchtower spuriously claim.



Again you appear to split Jesus, first from his identity as the Word and now his identity as the Christ. Jesus is the Word and he is also the Christ.

"but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." John 20:31​

Granted the Greek monogenes has been translated as begotten in English, but it doesn't carry the same connotation as the Greek.

Jerome translated monogenes as unigenitus (one begotten) in the Latin Vulgate which was later translated as begotten in English. In the original Koine Greek, monogenes meant “unique”, “without peer” or “one of a kind”. You’re taking a Greek word which was later translated into Latin and now translated as “begotten” in English, then inserting our English meaning back into the Koine Greek text. This is where good exegesis comes in.



I'd have to disagree with this. Jesus IS the way, not a pointer or herder to the way.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12
 
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Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Actually you did…you stated Jesus was created from the Word of God. Jesus is the Word and not a creation of it:

Let's look at the verse you quoted:
sorry but the bible disagrees with you.

the holy spirit moved upon the water in genesis 1:2 and created everything in heaven and earth. thats how it works for everything; including Jesus.

Luke 1:35
The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

again works the same for everyone and everything.

John 3:8
The wind(spirit) blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit(Wind)."

Notice it states ALL things were created, and yes, this includes the visible and invisible. If Jesus were created he would have had to create himself. If Jesus is a “manifestation” then the manifestation created itself.

It's important to reconcile this verse before we jump to other verses. All means all. Not some things were created, not most things created, and certainly not all [other] things created as Organizations like the Watchtower spuriously claim.

begotten means created; it the past tense of beget.



Again you appear to split Jesus, first from his identity as the Word and now his identity as the Christ. Jesus is the Word and he is also the Christ.

"but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." John 20:31​

Granted the Greek monogenes has been translated as begotten in English, but it doesn't carry the same connotation as the Greek.

Jerome translated monogenes as unigenitus (one begotten) in the Latin Vulgate which was later translated as begotten in English. In the original Koine Greek, monogenes meant “unique”, “without peer” or “one of a kind”. You’re taking a Greek word which was later translated into Latin and now translated as “begotten” in English, then inserting our English meaning back into the Koine Greek text. This is where good exegesis comes in.
jesus taught "Our Father" and paul said:

Acts 17:28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

God created everything through it's Spirit.



I'd have to disagree with this. Jesus IS the way, not a pointer or herder to the way.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

The Father is the ultimate goal. Jesus isn't. Being a pattern, or an example, is a facet, aspect, of the ALL.

Jesus was patterned after melchizedek.

The bible, nor Jesus, condoned idolatry to a begotten thing. This is the downfall of all who eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.


I AM is everything seen and unseen. not just Jesus seen and unseen.

Jeremiah 23:24
Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
 
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