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Antifa's end.

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Really? So you aren't worried about the group that wants to slaughter Jews and black people, but the group who wants to confront them has you shaking in your boots?

Sheer insanity.

These Nazi's are not innocent protesters. They have a history of destroying property and even killing people and are largely comprised of ex-cons and the mentally ill. If that doesn't concern you then I can't help you.

The alt-right does have neo-nazis and KKK. A very small %. But as I said they will never get traction or gain any power. So they are not a threat.

Antifa is actively attempting to shut down free speech at every turn. So yes they are a threat.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
The alt-right does have neo-nazis and KKK. A very small %. But as I said they will never get traction or gain any power. So they are not a threat.

Antifa is actively attempting to shut down free speech at every turn. So yes they are a threat.

No they really aren't. They are shouting down Nazi's. At every turn implies they are against free speech in general which is silly.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
Berkeley Free Speech Rally, April 15th.
Toronto Free Speech Rally, May 6
Boston Free Speech Rally, May 13th (No violence that I'm aware of)
Portland Free Speech Rally, June 4th.

I could probably find more, but you get the point

So, I am curious. What is the point of these Free Speech Rallies? Is someone out there inhibiting free speech somewhere? Or is it cover for something else?

And before you say Antifa, nope, I don't buy that. They are a relatively new problem. So where did these rallies come from?

Because when I poke around, I find stories like this...

White supremacists among those arrested after ‘Free Speech’ Rally - The Boston Globe
 

9Westy9

Sceptic, Libertarian, Egalitarian
Premium Member
So, I am curious. What is the point of these Free Speech Rallies?

To support free speech

Is someone out there inhibiting free speech somewhere?

Yes. Universities are banning "controversial" speakers, Social media sites are clamping down on controversial opinions, and people are being arrested over stupid jokes (at least here in the UK)
YouTuber Count Dankula could face year in jail for Nazi dog video

Or is it cover for something else?

Nope. Although I assume you'd disagree?

And before you say Antifa, nope, I don't buy that. They are a relatively new problem. So where did these rallies come from?

I don't think antifa are entirely to blame, or even the main reason why these rallies started happening. Although the fact that they're violently trying to shut these rallies down isn't helping their cause and is only going to increase the number of these rallies.


Are you trying to argue that because a few "white supremacists" (if they even are white supremacists) get arrested at these rallies, that antifa are justified in violent counter protest? Or that these events aren't actually about free speech? because either of those claims will require an awful lot more evidence than you've provided.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
To support free speech



Yes. Universities are banning "controversial" speakers, Social media sites are clamping down on controversial opinions, and people are being arrested over stupid jokes (at least here in the UK)
YouTuber Count Dankula could face year in jail for Nazi dog video
http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/enter...uld-face-year-in-jail-for-nazi-dog-video.html

Okay but those things are not about free speech. Social media sites can clamp down on whatever they like. They are owned and operated by private companies. Universities, again, are private institutions who can ban whomever they like. And the UK is not where these are happening.

Nope. Although I assume you'd disagree?

I have my suspicions, as do many others. Free speech is alive and well here in the states, so whenever I hear about these kinds of things it strikes me as either a) a play on the fear that some big brother is coming for people or b) cover for something more insidious.



I don't think antifa are entirely to blame, or even the main reason why these rallies started happening. Although the fact that they're violently trying to shut these rallies down isn't helping their cause and is only going to increase the number of these rallies.

I know at least in some of these cases, antifa was a minuscule percentage of the people attending the counter rallies. Boston had thousands of protesters from "the left" and the information I found who mentioned antifa said they were less than 2 dozen.

Are you trying to argue that because a few "white supremacists" (if they even are white supremacists) get arrested at these rallies, that antifa are justified in violent counter protest? Or that these events aren't actually about free speech? because either of those claims will require an awful lot more evidence than you've provided.

We shall see. But at the very least these rallies are fear-mongering campaigns by the alt right, with virtually no basis in reality.
 

9Westy9

Sceptic, Libertarian, Egalitarian
Premium Member
Okay but those things are not about free speech. Social media sites can clamp down on whatever they like. They are owned and operated by private companies. Universities, again, are private institutions who can ban whomever they like. And the UK is not where these are happening.

Personally I disagree, Social Media sites claim to be in support of free speech whilst actively suppressing it. In principle, universities are places to explore and debate ideas. Banning certain speakers and "controversial" issues is counter productive. You defeat bad ideas with more speech, not less.

I have my suspicions, as do many others. Free speech is alive and well here in the states, so whenever I hear about these kinds of things it strikes me as either a) a play on the fear that some big brother is coming for people or b) cover for something more insidious.

For now. If the silencing of people on American universities is anything to go by though, for how much longer?

I know at least in some of these cases, antifa was a minuscule percentage of the people attending the counter rallies. Boston had thousands of protesters from "the left" and the information I found who mentioned antifa said they were less than 2 dozen.

and at most of these rallies Antifa were violently attacking protesters on the other side. Their numbers are more or less irrelevant.

We shall see. But at the very least these rallies are fear-mongering campaigns by the alt right, with virtually no basis in reality.

Personally I disagree. The stifling of free speech on College campuses and social media is just the start in my opinion, although I guess time will tell.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
Personally I disagree, Social Media sites claim to be in support of free speech whilst actively suppressing it. In principle, universities are places to explore and debate ideas. Banning certain speakers and "controversial" issues is counter productive. You defeat bad ideas with more speech, not less.

Maybe so, but constitutional free speech is not about private companies allowing people to do whatever they like on their property. It is about government not suppressing speech.

For now. If the silencing of people on American universities is anything to go by though, for how much longer?

Schools have been doing this for decades. I remember the same stuff going on when I was in school. There is nothing new under the sun.

and at most of these rallies Antifa were violently attacking protesters on the other side. Their numbers are more or less irrelevant.

Are they? If anything I would say the fact that Antifa is vastly outnumbered by reasonable people makes them an outlier and largely irrelevant. Only the media has made them part of the story.

As for their violence, again, I would want to see evidence that they were the ones inciting violence. When a group is counter protesting nazis, I certainly am not going to give the nazis the benefit of the doubt.

Personally I disagree. The stifling of free speech on College campuses and social media is just the start in my opinion, although I guess time will tell.

The slippery slope argument. I'm sorry but history tells a different story. Historically a college cancels a speech by a controversial figure, the media has a tizzy, the fans make a fuss, and nothing happens.

Social Media I will reserve judgement for. If they can do as promised and simply promote honesty and dismiss hate, I am perfectly okay with that. It is no different than any other company where lies and hatemongering will get you reprimanded or dismissed.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
Untitled.jpg
Hmmm, guess one of the major leaders of the Democratic party then are out of step with most of you.
Pelosi condemns ‘violent actions’ of antifa protesters

Then your favorite media source might be out of step with most of you.
Unmasking the leftist Antifa movement - CNN
You think that's equivalent to the KKK and white nationalists? You guys all get your information from the same places.
 

9Westy9

Sceptic, Libertarian, Egalitarian
Premium Member
Schools have been doing this for decades. I remember the same stuff going on when I was in school. There is nothing new under the sun.

Seems a hell of a lot worse now. It's certainly worse than when I first went to university a few years ago.

Are they? If anything I would say the fact that Antifa is vastly outnumbered by reasonable people makes them an outlier and largely irrelevant. Only the media has made them part of the story.

Do you apply the same logic to Nazi's, white supremacists, etc? Also, hard to exclude them from the story when they're acting violently.

As for their violence, again, I would want to see evidence that they were the ones inciting violence. When a group is counter protesting nazis, I certainly am not going to give the nazis the benefit of the doubt.

Stop demonising everyone at these rallies as nazis. It makes you look stupid. For proof of antifa inciting violence, a simple youtube search will give you plenty of evidence.


This might also be of interest to you


The slippery slope argument. I'm sorry but history tells a different story. Historically a college cancels a speech by a controversial figure, the media has a tizzy, the fans make a fuss, and nothing happens.

Social Media I will reserve judgement for. If they can do as promised and simply promote honesty and dismiss hate, I am perfectly okay with that. It is no different than any other company where lies and hatemongering will get you reprimanded or dismissed.

Time will tell. I'm not as optimistic though.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
Seems a hell of a lot worse now. It's certainly worse than when I first went to university a few years ago.

Do you apply the same logic to Nazi's, white supremacists, etc? Also, hard to exclude them from the story when they're acting violently.

Sure I do. But here is the difference. Antifa is there but they are not carrying hate mongering banners.

When people claim they simply happened to be at the same march with Nazi's, I cry foul. You do not get to march next to guys carrying the nazi flags and claim you are innocent. If Nazi's are there, you should go home.

Antifa, right or not, sees themselves as a response from the left to the violent right wing extremist. An eye for an eye if you will. But they do not espouse hateful rhetoric in and of itself.

Stop demonising everyone at these rallies as nazis. It makes you look stupid. For proof of antifa inciting violence, a simple youtube search will give you plenty of evidence.


This might also be of interest to you


Inciting violence or being involved in violence? The two are distinct. If a nazi came at me, you better believe I would get violent. As would many people. There is a difference between being prepared for violence and inciting it.

As for demonizing everyone, I don't do that. I'm simply pointing out that Nazi's were at these rallies as a minority (the exception being Charlottesville) just as antifa was. Antifa was there as a response to the hatemongers.

The problem is it is a dangerous group because they have no controls, no leadership and are simply a label people affix to themselves. So they range from those simply looking to pick a fight, to legitimate counter protesters. Talking about them like a coherent group is silly. They just aren't.

Time will tell. I'm not as optimistic though.

I think the much bigger issue than the nonsense about free speech is the danger of continued escalation between hardline groups in this country. That is what people should be taking from these stories.
 

9Westy9

Sceptic, Libertarian, Egalitarian
Premium Member
Sure I do. But here is the difference. Antifa is there but they are not carrying hate mongering banners.

You clearly haven't seen much footage then.

1463811732258.jpg

unite_the_right_rally_9_gi.jpg


When people claim they simply happened to be at the same march with Nazi's, I cry foul. You do not get to march next to guys carrying the nazi flags and claim you are innocent. If Nazi's are there, you should go home.

In Charlottesville you might have a point. I don't remember seeing any nazi flags at other rallies though, and even then they're in the vast minority.

Antifa, right or not, sees themselves as a response from the left to the violent right wing extremist. An eye for an eye if you will. But they do not espouse hateful rhetoric in and of itself.

1) Debatable that antifa are a response to violent ring wing extremists.
2) They attack pretty much everyone on the right, regardless of how extreme they are.

Inciting violence or being involved in violence? The two are distinct. If a nazi came at me, you better believe I would get violent. As would many people. There is a difference between being prepared for violence and inciting it.

Did you watch any of the videos I posted? There were plenty of examples of antifa starting violence. Also, antifa go to "counter-protest" whilst wielding weapons and covering their faces. Doesn't sound very peaceful to me.

As for demonizing everyone, I don't do that. I'm simply pointing out that Nazi's were at these rallies as a minority (the exception being Charlottesville) just as antifa was. Antifa was there as a response to the hatemongers.

Then why did you say "When a group is counter protesting nazis, I certainly am not going to give the nazis the benefit of the doubt." when you agree that most of them aren't nazis? (except perhaps for Charlottesville)

The problem is it is a dangerous group because they have no controls, no leadership and are simply a label people affix to themselves. So they range from those simply looking to pick a fight, to legitimate counter protesters. Talking about them like a coherent group is silly. They just aren't.

Are you referring to antifa? Because they're definitely a coherent group.

I think the much bigger issue than the nonsense about free speech is the danger of continued escalation between hardline groups in this country. That is what people should be taking from these stories.

I agree there. At this rate the violence between extreme left and right is only going to get worse. Hence why the police should do a better job in keeping the two groups apart.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
You clearly haven't seen much footage then.

1463811732258.jpg

unite_the_right_rally_9_gi.jpg




In Charlottesville you might have a point. I don't remember seeing any nazi flags at other rallies though, and even then they're in the vast minority.

There was at the first one. After that the group leading it banned them.

1) Debatable that antifa are a response to violent ring wing extremists.
2) They attack pretty much everyone on the right, regardless of how extreme they are.

Did you watch any of the videos I posted? There were plenty of examples of antifa starting violence. Also, antifa go to "counter-protest" whilst wielding weapons and covering their faces. Doesn't sound very peaceful to me.

They sound like Nazis. And I've made it clear I don't agree with their methods. The reasoning behind those methods (at least among those I've heard interviewed) is understandable however.

Then why did you say "When a group is counter protesting nazis, I certainly am not going to give the nazis the benefit of the doubt." when you agree that most of them aren't nazis? (except perhaps for Charlottesville)

I was referring to nazis specifically. In other words, Charlottesville.

If what you say is true and antifa is starting fights then I am against that. I've said that from the beginning. But those I have heard interviewed (admittedly probably the best face of the group) has publicly said they were there to fill a defensive roll.

Are you referring to antifa? Because they're definitely a coherent group.

Not so far as anything I have read. They have no leadership, no website, no headquarters. They are a bunch of people who self identify as antifa. I suspect they will become organized at some point, but as of the last reports I read, they were not yet.

I agree there. At this rate the violence between extreme left and right is only going to get worse. Hence why the police should do a better job in keeping the two groups apart.

Keeping them apart is the least of the problem. At the rate this is escalating, we could see this become a problem on a scale the police would struggle to handle.

Part of the problem is we have a president who is slow to act, and who has shown very little desire to calm the waters. That leaves it to states and local governments to handle the situation.
 

9Westy9

Sceptic, Libertarian, Egalitarian
Premium Member
They sound like Nazis. And I've made it clear I don't agree with their methods. The reasoning behind those methods (at least among those I've heard interviewed) is understandable however.

Most of the protestors don't "sound like nazis" with the exception of Chalottesville, where there were a large number of nazis

Not so far as anything I have read. They have no leadership, no website, no headquarters. They are a bunch of people who self identify as antifa. I suspect they will become organized at some point, but as of the last reports I read, they were not yet.

It's more social media pages than websites/ headquarters.

Keeping them apart is the least of the problem. At the rate this is escalating, we could see this become a problem on a scale the police would struggle to handle.

Part of the problem is we have a president who is slow to act, and who has shown very little desire to calm the waters. That leaves it to states and local governments to handle the situation.

What would you reasonably expect the president to do to stop the violent conflicts? Also, I'm not sure Obama or Hillary would've done any better on this front.
 
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