Hell is not eternal

PopeADope said:

Zechariah 13:9 ►
This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.'"

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So my religion explicitly states it is not eternal. Nor is it even literal. So basically I agree with you.

But Zechariah 13:9 does not have anything to do with the afterlife when put into its Scriptural context. While mischaracterizing that could be used to support the conclusion both you or I agree on, doing so is fundamentally erroneous. Context is key to any and every scriptural interpretation.

My friends, it is unfortunate that the concept of "conscious eternal punishment in hell" ever got started. It was started by Augustine of Hippo, and became a doctrine in the RC church. Augustine borrowed it from Platonic-Greek philosophy.
There is no such place as a "hell," maybe some where in the center of the earth.

The truth is seen in the Scriptures, in the most literal translations, if possible.
The 7 places rendered "hell' which Jesus warned of, is "Geheena," a literal place in Jesus' earthly ministry, outside the S.E. walls of Jerusalem, where the city offal, and trash were thrown, as well as dead bodies of animals and humans. Fires were kept burning to help cover the stench and to burn up the offal and the bodies. Humans who broke the law bad enough would be sentenced to "the fires of Geheena" by the Sanhedren, the highest Jewish court.

Paul tells us in Rom. 6:23, "The wages of sin is death..."

The cure for death is resurrection. As for being judged: the Bible declares in many places, that we must all be judged for our deeds, and this will be done, but with different groups at different times, and at different places.

The message now is that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"
(Rom. 3:23), and that Christ died for all mankind to take away their sins.

Saint Frankenstein said:

Well, death and hell are supposed to be thrown into the lake of fire. Make of that what you will. I lean towards universal reconciliation.

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I agree with you, SF, and Col. 1:20 verifies it. In the KJV, we read: "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."

Another comment that might clear up things: so often, the word "Hades" is rendered "hell" by many, yet "Hades" literal means "unseen," and is rightly translated "the grave" in the appropriate places.

So often in the O.T. one reads of "death and Sheol (grave)" a number of times, and that is what is meant in Rev. 20:14; "death and the grave" were cast into the lake of fire, because, they are destroyed. In the new heavens and earth following, there is no death/grave. (Rev.21:4).

PopeADope said:

I could never love a God who would have people tortured for all eternity just for not believing in him. That is just wicked, depressing, epitome of unjust, cruel, ugly, and sickening! It is the worst, most horrifying and depressing thing I've ever heard!

I don't believe Hell is eternal. I know a lot of unbelievers and wicked people and wouldn't want any of them to suffer for eternity, not even if they killed my whole family.

Scripture does mention a lake of fire for those whose names weren't written in the book of life. Fire is often used in Scripture symbolically to symbolize purification. God said he would purify his people as gold is purified in fire. So, I think that the lake of fire is symbolic to mean a painful place of being punished, purified, and perfected.

I wouldn't burn anyone in hell forever. I told that to God, and God said I'm not more merciful than him. if he is more merciful than me, then there is no eternal hell.

1 Corinthians 3:15 "will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." These are fires of purification.

Zechariah 13:9 ►
This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.'"

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I liked your scriptures but not your conclusions. I'm also out of steam - so how much I can give you is a question.

I will give you an addition one or two scriptures:
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Without scriptural evidence that would make it too long, let me just state that there is no hell of torment; if you want to use the word hell, there is only hell of sleep. The dead sleep, are no more. If you want some scriptures about the condition of the dead, please look at this link: >Truth Seeker - Judgment & Sheol<.

The Refining Fire
Christian disagreement:
Unfortunately, our internal disagreement is vast. So, before continuing, for the sake of understanding the above, let me put down a few lines that you may or may not agree with:
The Fire
The fire has nothing to do with death or hell. It has to do with refining those among Christians who get selected to be saints. These get anointed with Holy Spirit, specifically, the Helper, Christ's spirit. These also shall be tested as through fire until they die. If they die true, they will receive the heavenly resurrection to become co-rulers with Christ and be his priest, Christ being the High Priest.

Again, this fire has nothing to do with hell as in death, though it is going to be hell for those who go through it. If they get refined they become approved; if they do not get refined, but so to say, burn up in these fires of the trials, they become disapproved as the son of destruction did.

PopeADope said:

I could never love a God who would have people tortured for all eternity just for not believing in him. That is just wicked, depressing, epitome of unjust, cruel, ugly, and sickening! It is the worst, most horrifying and depressing thing I've ever heard!

I don't believe Hell is eternal. I know a lot of unbelievers and wicked people and wouldn't want any of them to suffer for eternity, not even if they killed my whole family.

Scripture does mention a lake of fire for those whose names weren't written in the book of life. Fire is often used in Scripture symbolically to symbolize purification. God said he would purify his people as gold is purified in fire. So, I think that the lake of fire is symbolic to mean a painful place of being punished, purified, and perfected.

I wouldn't burn anyone in hell forever. I told that to God, and God said I'm not more merciful than him. if he is more merciful than me, then there is no eternal hell.

1 Corinthians 3:15 "will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." These are fires of purification.

Zechariah 13:9 ►
This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.'"

Click to expand...

The picture you've posted does not reflect the man in perdition in Luke 16, who carries on a very normal type of conversation with Abraham, but says he is thirsty in perdition.

Also, people aren't cast into Hell for "disbelief" or "distrust". They enter Hell for these reasons:

1. They are imperfect

2. They cannot thus live in a perfect place without being transformed

3. Of their free will, they rejected the perfect God who offered them transformation through the blood of Christ

4. They reject the love of Jesus, the vehicle for this transformation

Please actually read what the Bible says about Hell before posting inflammatory musings.

This is the exact reason why Eastern religions are philosophically/logically BETTER than Abrahamic religions

PopeADope said:

I could never love a God who would have people tortured for all eternity just for not believing in him. That is just wicked, depressing, epitome of unjust, cruel, ugly, and sickening! It is the worst, most horrifying and depressing thing I've ever heard!

I don't believe Hell is eternal. I know a lot of unbelievers and wicked people and wouldn't want any of them to suffer for eternity, not even if they killed my whole family.

Scripture does mention a lake of fire for those whose names weren't written in the book of life. Fire is often used in Scripture symbolically to symbolize purification. God said he would purify his people as gold is purified in fire. So, I think that the lake of fire is symbolic to mean a painful place of being punished, purified, and perfected.

I wouldn't burn anyone in hell forever. I told that to God, and God said I'm not more merciful than him. if he is more merciful than me, then there is no eternal hell.

1 Corinthians 3:15 "will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." These are fires of purification.

Zechariah 13:9 ►
This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.'"

Click to expand...

BilliardsBall said:

The picture you've posted does not reflect the man in perdition in Luke 16, who carries on a very normal type of conversation with Abraham, but says he is thirsty in perdition.

Also, people aren't cast into Hell for "disbelief" or "distrust". They enter Hell for these reasons:

1. They are imperfect

2. They cannot thus live in a perfect place without being transformed

3. Of their free will, they rejected the perfect God who offered them transformation through the blood of Christ

4. They reject the love of Jesus, the vehicle for this transformation

Please actually read what the Bible says about Hell before posting inflammatory musings.

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An offer has to be made before it can be rejected.

Stevicus said:

An offer has to be made before it can be rejected.

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The offer is documented in the entire New Testament!

BilliardsBall said:

The offer is documented in the entire New Testament!

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You stated that God made the offer. The New Testament is written by human beings who claim to speak for God, but they can't prove that they're speaking for God. There's no way to verify whether the writers of the New Testament have the qualifications or the authorization to make offers on God's behalf.

So, if it's not a valid offer - directly and verifiably from God - then it doesn't count.

Stevicus said:

You stated that God made the offer. The New Testament is written by human beings who claim to speak for God, but they can't prove that they're speaking for God. There's no way to verify whether the writers of the New Testament have the qualifications or the authorization to make offers on God's behalf.

So, if it's not a valid offer - directly and verifiably from God - then it doesn't count.

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Good point!

We can verify the NT for ourselves in various ways:

1) Read the text and see for yourself if the writers are honest or dishonest.

2) Read to see if the writers have insights on human behaviors/divine wisdom.

3) Explore the prophecies to see which NT predictions have come true in history.

4) Challenge yourself: has someone loved you more than Christ who died for you?

5) Ask God for a personal touch, a confirmatory touch, so you can make an informed decision to trust Him.

Thanks.

BilliardsBall said:

Good point!

We can verify the NT for ourselves in various ways:

1) Read the text and see for yourself if the writers are honest or dishonest.

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I have, although there's still no way to independently verify any of it. It's often difficult to tell if someone is honest or dishonest when you're even in the same room with them and have the opportunity to question them. Trying to discern that from reading ancient texts translated and retranslated multiple times written by people who have been dead for thousands of years is next to impossible.

2) Read to see if the writers have insights on human behaviors/divine wisdom.

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Any good writer with an understanding of the human condition can do that, but it doesn't mean they possess divine wisdom.

3) Explore the prophecies to see which NT predictions have come true in history.

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Prophecies have as much value as daily horoscopes or messages from fortune cookies. They might say things like "You will meet a stranger today" or some generalized, vague statement which can be applied in any number of circumstances.

4) Challenge yourself: has someone loved you more than Christ who died for you?

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Those who have loved me make the attempt to communicate once in a while. Christ has never done that.

As for the idea that Christ died for "me," that's what makes the entire story rather implausible. It wasn't a real, permanent "death," since the story indicates that he was resurrected and that it was what God had intended all along. Moreover, the same result could have been accomplished by God in any number of ways without making Jesus' death a necessity.

5) Ask God for a personal touch, a confirmatory touch, so you can make an informed decision to trust Him.

Thanks.

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I have done so in the past.

I think hell is eternal but I'm not sure people will actually burn there for eternity without ever dying or disintegrating.

Stevicus said:

I have, although there's still no way to independently verify any of it. It's often difficult to tell if someone is honest or dishonest when you're even in the same room with them and have the opportunity to question them. Trying to discern that from reading ancient texts translated and retranslated multiple times written by people who have been dead for thousands of years is next to impossible.



Any good writer with an understanding of the human condition can do that, but it doesn't mean they possess divine wisdom.



Prophecies have as much value as daily horoscopes or messages from fortune cookies. They might say things like "You will meet a stranger today" or some generalized, vague statement which can be applied in any number of circumstances.



Those who have loved me make the attempt to communicate once in a while. Christ has never done that.

As for the idea that Christ died for "me," that's what makes the entire story rather implausible. It wasn't a real, permanent "death," since the story indicates that he was resurrected and that it was what God had intended all along. Moreover, the same result could have been accomplished by God in any number of ways without making Jesus' death a necessity.



I have done so in the past.

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Glad you have reached out to God in the past. Did you give him a suggested time to reach you? Perhaps today is the day.

Fortunately, prophecies of the Bible are neither vague nor lacking dates for verification. Daniel predicts the Messiah will die for human sin on Passover 30 AD!

BilliardsBall said:

Glad you have reached out to God in the past. Did you give him a suggested time to reach you? Perhaps today is the day.

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We'll see, but I'm not holding my breath.

Fortunately, prophecies of the Bible are neither vague nor lacking dates for verification. Daniel predicts the Messiah will die for human sin on Passover 30 AD!

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Does it actually say that? I'd like to see the quote you're referring to.

As far as "dying for human sin" is concerned, that's always been difficult to swallow. For one thing, at least back when I was religious, it was said that if one confesses one's sins and asks God for forgiveness, then one will be forgiven. That idea seems pretty straightforward and simple, but it doesn't seem logical that someone has to actually die for that. I never could understand the reasoning behind the idea of a "sacrificial lamb." I can't see the reason an all-powerful deity would require some "blood sacrifice" in order to make a decision as to whether someone should be forgiven or not.

PopeADope said:

I could never love a God who would have people tortured for all eternity just for not believing in him. That is just wicked, depressing, epitome of unjust, cruel, ugly, and sickening! It is the worst, most horrifying and depressing thing I've ever heard!

I don't believe Hell is eternal. I know a lot of unbelievers and wicked people and wouldn't want any of them to suffer for eternity, not even if they killed my whole family.

Scripture does mention a lake of fire for those whose names weren't written in the book of life. Fire is often used in Scripture symbolically to symbolize purification. God said he would purify his people as gold is purified in fire. So, I think that the lake of fire is symbolic to mean a painful place of being punished, purified, and perfected.

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I agree.

The idea of eternal conscious torment is full of holes.

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Stevicus said:

We'll see, but I'm not holding my breath.



Does it actually say that? I'd like to see the quote you're referring to.

As far as "dying for human sin" is concerned, that's always been difficult to swallow. For one thing, at least back when I was religious, it was said that if one confesses one's sins and asks God for forgiveness, then one will be forgiven. That idea seems pretty straightforward and simple, but it doesn't seem logical that someone has to actually die for that. I never could understand the reasoning behind the idea of a "sacrificial lamb." I can't see the reason an all-powerful deity would require some "blood sacrifice" in order to make a decision as to whether someone should be forgiven or not.

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What are the seventy weeks of Daniel?

Sorrow is insufficient to pay for sin. If I kill someone in a car accident, my contrition will not raise the dead.

Sorrow is insufficient for utopia. Humans cannot create utopia without transformation. If I died today--and I'm a born again Christian--I'd ruin Heaven for you and vice versa. I need to be transformed. The atoning, divine power of Christ is the sufficiency for this extraordinary transformation--that I'll still be me in Heaven but without the propensity to sin.

In the end, a human can only has 2 states. He's with God or he's not. If he's not then he's put outside of God's realm. 'Outside of God's realm" is simply a place lacking God's maintenance. Hell is thus the most natural environment ever. If temperature there goes high eternally, then it is so.