How are these Great Beings explained?

CG Didymus · Sep 3, 2017

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The Religion becomes worship of mans Ideas of God, the all embracing spirit is forgotten. Those after power take hold.

All those questions have been answered in just one book of Baha'u'llah. It it the 'Book of Certitude' Kitab-i-iqan. It is worth taking the time to read this.

Also the 'Summons of the Lord of Hosts' by Baha'u'llah also is a valuable read. It contains many of the visions of the future and what Baha'u'llah has foretold.

Regards Tony

My point is that the answers in the NT that "corrected" Judaism are things that you call wrong. Of course once Christians started interpreting the teachings written in the NT, trying to make sense of them, they came up with other doctrines that Baha'is don't believe in either.

CG Didymus · Sep 3, 2017

InvestigateTruth said:
Who did say that?

Abdulbaha explained that, in Some Answered Questions.

So you don't have an answer that you can post to "Adam a manifestation? That's gotta be a mistake. If he was even a real, historical person, he couldn't even follow the one rule God gave him... "Don't eat the forbidden fruit."

Just tell me what the Baha'i definition of a manifestation is. If it includes not breaking God's laws and being infallible, then Adam doesn't make the cut. He's out.

CG Didymus · Sep 3, 2017

adrian009 said:
Your point is a reasonable one, in that the historical narrative is completely changed, yet the essential message of Christ remains.

The problem for the Christians and Mormons is their insistence on an historic narrative that lacks credibility in the light of modern science and scholarship.

Well, that's what I think too. We do agree. Only problem is... Baha'is say this "narrative that lacks credibility" is the very Word of God.

So if Jesus didn't rise from the dead and do all those miraculous things, the NT is stupid... a work of fiction. All we have is some guy that said be kind and love one another. Anybody could say that. Why would anybody give their life to some nice guy? But, the writers made him a virtual God incarnate. A virgin birth, walked on water, turned water into wine, cast out demons, conquered death and Satan by his resurrection... And he's coming again to destroy the Devil and all evil doers.

They believed it. They didn't think it was all symbolic. They gave their lives thinking Jesus is alive and it is him that will be coming back. If that's not true, then God didn't explain things very well.

Now the poor Mormons... Christianity had its problems. Joseph Smith is given a book that solves the problem. People try it and it works. Are the stories in the Book of Mormon true? If it works, does it matter? And that is how religions go. If a religions tells you, "Do good or the devil will get you" and if you believe that religion, you'll probably try and do good.

But is there a devil? Maybe, maybe not. For those that doubt the religion will they be prone to do good as taught by that religion? Probably not. So what is better? A good religious myth with threats of hell fire or to tell them that Jesus was a nice guy so you should be nice too?

But the Christian threat of doom continues. They say things like: There will be wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end. They say there will be horrible tribulations, then comes Jesus. They are still on track to fulfilling the prophecies the way they interpret them. Anyway, I'm learning a lot and am able to share a lot about my experiences with and around a few of the different religions. I hope you guys do see the good of all this and don't ever think it is a waste of time.

CG Didymus · Sep 3, 2017

Vinayaka said:
Here's the basics. Katzpur may beg to differ.

BBC - Religions - Mormon: Mormon attitudes to other faiths

Cool, but doesn't that contradict what Baha'is say? No, I'm sorry. There no such thing as a contradiction. I have to learn to see things in a spiritual way. (I still believe floppy flat snakes rule)

CG Didymus · Sep 3, 2017

InvestigateTruth said:
Bahais do not believe God only writes in symbolic language. Some verses are literal and some verses are to be interpreted symbolically.

God writes it? Or, speaks through the writer? Or, dictates it? Or, the writer gets inspired, like a feeling in his heart or something? But then what about the rejected books of the Bible? People made that decision. Were they inspired, or did they have an agenda and only accepted books that fit their beliefs?

CG Didymus · Sep 3, 2017

InvestigateTruth said:
I am not saying there is, or is not in Bahai Scriptures. But if you want to discuss it, you should find and quote it here with the source. Then we can look at it, and think about it.

Well then who do Baha'is say was the manifestation that brought God's teachings that came to be called Hinduism?

CG Didymus · Sep 3, 2017

Katzpur said:
I thought maybe I could find a quote from one of our past or present leaders about the Baha'i Faith, but I couldn't find anything that referred to them specifically. The following two quotes, however, are fairly representative of how we view other religions generally:

“The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.”

“While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is established for the instruction of men, it is ONE of God’s instrumentalities for making known the truth; yet God is not limited to that institution for such purposes, neither in time nor place. He raises up wise men and prophets here and there among all the children of men, of their own tongue and nationality, speaking to them through means that they can comprehend; not always giving a fulness of truth such as may be found in the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ; but always giving that measure of truth that the people are prepared to receive. Mormonism holds, then, that all the great teachers are servants of God among all nations and in all ages. They are inspired men, appointed to instruct God’s children according to the conditions in the midst of which he finds them… Whenever God finds a soul sufficiently enlightened and pure; one with whom His Spirit can communicate, lo! He makes of him a teacher of men.”

You asked what Baha'is do with Mormons and what Mormons do with Baha'is. I'm not 100% sure of what you meant by the word "with" unless you were just asking about attitudes, which is what my two quotes described.

Yes, we have prophesies about the return of Jesus Christ, but I really have no idea about how the Baha'is fit into those prophesies. We certainly don't believe that they'll all be cast into Hell or some other such nonsense, if that's what you were thinking.

That was fantastic. So on the prophecies, what's important about them is that the Baha'is believe their prophet is the return of Christ. So if Mormons don't think Jesus has returned yet, then what things do you expect to happen before he returns. Thanks.

loverofhumanity · Sep 3, 2017

Vinayaka said:
How do you explain religious wars, like the Crusades, or the Muslim invasions and attempted genocide of India?

Nothing to do with God at all. God only teaches things like compassion and non violence, peace, love and harmony.

CG Didymus · Sep 3, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
The one way to know if something is from God is by its fruits. If it is from God it will be good and bring about peace, harmony and love. If it is not from God it will cause hatred and war and prejudice.

But God told Joshua to go conquer and kill people.

CG Didymus · Sep 3, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
I think there is so much more to it than that. I don't think these Messengers went through horrendous suffering and torture just to correct people.

My understanding is They sacrificed Themselves out of compassion and love for the oppressed, the poor, those who were victims of cruelty and injustice or dominated by ruthless tyrants who made them slaves.

They gave up lives of comfort in exchange for cruelty, torture or crucifixion so we could all have things like freedom of religion, human rights, a good education, that everyone would be treated with dignity, that we would live in peace and become as a true family.

They sacrificed everything to these ends so that we may have it better. And we do. And They still suffer humiliation, exile and imprisonement ands torture when They come and try to free us from oppression ands injustice resulting in things like equal rights for all, education for all and medical care for all. Their concern is our wellbeing both material and spiritual. They are our True Friends. They could have lived out comfortable lives but they chose to do things like admonish kings, rebuke religious leaders for being unjust and They stood up always for the poor and needy and against all oppression and injustice and discrimination.

If anybody, we have Them to thank for all the benefits we enjoy today. The freedom we have in many countries, the human rights we have. But there is much more to be done to make all people free and that is why Baha'u'llah came.

That was beautiful, but... how did Christianity "correct" Judaism? And still, how did any of the Abrahamic religions "correct" Buddhism and Hinduism?

loverofhumanity · Sep 3, 2017

Vinayaka said:
There are tons of people to thank for our freedoms. Many weren't adherents of the Big Nine.

Absolutely. I was thinking about people like the Jews who were slaves before Moses intervened. That was a very significant moment in human history where oppressed slaves were taught to stand up for their rights which we have seen repeated numerous times with things like rejection of apartheid in South Africa and the black movement in the USA.

Moses set an example that is still being followed today by mostly non Jews demanding their rights.

CG Didymus · Sep 3, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
Nothing to do with God at all. God only teaches things like compassion and non violence, peace, love and harmony.

We've been through this before. Have you read the Book of Joshua? God tells Joshua to kill every man, woman and child in Jericho.

Dawnofhope · Sep 4, 2017

CG Didymus said:
I have a question for you. One of the Baha'i said that no where in their writings does it say Krishna founded Hinduism. But isn't that part of the problem you had with them? I thought one of them said something like that? Don't sweat it too much. I don't want or expect to go back through 500 pages of posts or anything. But, do you remember anything like that?

I said Krishna wasn't the founder of Hinduism. There is nothing in the Baha'i writings that said He was and any superficial analysis of Hinduism would clearly demonstrate this. Moojan Moomen, a Baha'i that has written about Hinduism is clear that Krishna did not found Hinduism. In the introduction of his book Hinduism and the Baha'i Faith he says:

Hinduism is not merely a religion; it is a collection of religious traditions. These various strands of Hinduism are linked together as far as their concepts and history are concerned. But they have evolved in such a manner that they now present a wide variety of views about most matters. The ideas of some groups even contradict those held by other groups. It is hard to find any concepts or doctrines about which all the strands of Hinduism are agreed.

CG Didymus said:
Regardless, if they didn't say Krishna started Hinduism, then they're still messed up.. because then they don't have any known manifestation that started it.

I think it is a subject of discussion amongst scholars of Hinduism and eventually Baha'is will contribute more meaningfully to that research. I don't think it matters at all that our writings don't specifically address that question.

oldbadger · Sep 4, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
Nothing to do with God at all. God only teaches things like compassion and non violence, peace, love and harmony.

Hi....
Where do you get these ideas from?
The Israelites were commanded to make war, kill and execute.

Jesus was an insurrectionist whose mission was to enforce the laws of Moses, especially the poor laws (imo) and he could not succeed with peace, harmony. Yes, he wanted his own supporters to bond, but..... peace?

Here's a short selection of quotes:-
A selection of the Laws of Moses.
Witches must die (Ex. 22:17) Canaanites musd all die (Deut. 20:16) A Court may sentence of death by decapitation (Ex. 21:20; Lev. 26:25, strangulation (Lev. 20:10), burning with fire (Lev. 20:14), stoning (Deut.22:24)
A selection of Christian prophecies:
Matthew {10:34} Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

oldbadger · Sep 4, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
Moses set an example that is still being followed today by mostly non Jews demanding their rights.

Sadly Christians were told that they could keep slaves...... this a typical example of how badness can creep into any religion:-

Colossians 4:1 "You masters, treat your slaves in a righteous and fair way, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven."
Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. (1 Peter 2:18)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear (Ephesians 6:5)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything (Colossians 3:22)

Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them (Titus 2:9)

Dawnofhope · Sep 4, 2017

CG Didymus said:
Well, that's what I think too. We do agree. Only problem is... Baha'is say this "narrative that lacks credibility" is the very Word of God.

So if Jesus didn't rise from the dead and do all those miraculous things, the NT is stupid... a work of fiction. All we have is some guy that said be kind and love one another. Anybody could say that. Why would anybody give their life to some nice guy? But, the writers made him a virtual God incarnate. A virgin birth, walked on water, turned water into wine, cast out demons, conquered death and Satan by his resurrection... And he's coming again to destroy the Devil and all evil doers.

They believed it. They didn't think it was all symbolic. They gave their lives thinking Jesus is alive and it is him that will be coming back. If that's not true, then God didn't explain things very well.

Now the poor Mormons... Christianity had its problems. Joseph Smith is given a book that solves the problem. People try it and it works. Are the stories in the Book of Mormon true? If it works, does it matter? And that is how religions go. If a religions tells you, "Do good or the devil will get you" and if you believe that religion, you'll probably try and do good.

But is there a devil? Maybe, maybe not. For those that doubt the religion will they be prone to do good as taught by that religion? Probably not. So what is better? A good religious myth with threats of hell fire or to tell them that Jesus was a nice guy so you should be nice too?

But the Christian threat of doom continues. They say things like: There will be wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end. They say there will be horrible tribulations, then comes Jesus. They are still on track to fulfilling the prophecies the way they interpret them. Anyway, I'm learning a lot and am able to share a lot about my experiences with and around a few of the different religions. I hope you guys do see the good of all this and don't ever think it is a waste of time.

I think it is really valuable having you and @oldbadger on this thread as you have both had personal experience with the Baha'i faith and have clearly thought about both the Christian and the Baha'i message a great deal. These exchanges I would hope are helpful for us all providing we keep it respectful and courteous which you do. Thank you for your contribution as one of the most prolific contributors to this thread.

Dawnofhope · Sep 4, 2017

oldbadger said:
Hi....
Where do you get these ideas from?
The Israelites were commanded to make war, kill and execute.

Jesus was an insurrectionist whose mission was to enforce the laws of Moses, especially the poor laws (imo) and he could not succeed with peace, harmony. Yes, he wanted his own supporters to bond, but..... peace?

Here's a short selection of quotes:-
A selection of the Laws of Moses.
Witches must die (Ex. 22:17) Canaanites musd all die (Deut. 20:16) A Court may sentence of death by decapitation (Ex. 21:20; Lev. 26:25, strangulation (Lev. 20:10), burning with fire (Lev. 20:14), stoning (Deut.22:24)
A selection of Christian prophecies:
Matthew {10:34} Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

If we are to take the stories of the OT at face value, God assisted the Hebrew people in a war against the Canaanites. We can not deny this. Nor can we deny the Mosaic law was very harsh by today's standards.

oldbadger · Sep 4, 2017

adrian009 said:
I think it is really valuable having you and @oldbadger on this thread as you have both had personal experience with the Baha'i faith and have clearly thought about both the Christian and the Baha'i message a great deal. These exchanges I would hope are helpful for us all providing we keep it respectful and courteous which you do. Thank you for your contribution as one of the most prolific contributors to this thread.

Thanks for that......
The value for me in being able to debate about Great Beings is that I don't feel so much anger as before. So there has been therapeutic benefit.......
I wandered the extreme Christian websites for several months (punishment?) and the result was a much better grasp of Mosiac and Christian guides and laws, because the only way to survive on such websites is to only quote the bible, thus requiring, and leading to better education.

It's not for me to propose values for you, to you, but I'm prepared to bet (Oops!) that the next time you stand on any platform at any public meeting, that you'll be much more prepared, practiced, sharp, refined and fast at offering answers to questions, attitudes and heckles.

oldbadger · Sep 4, 2017

adrian009 said:
If we are to take the stories of the OT at face value, God assisted the Hebrew people in a war against the Canaanites. We can not deny this. Nor can we deny the Mosaic law was very harsh by today's standards.

Yep.....
But also, somehow, the same vicious killing God insinuated his way into Christian tenets.
There are many examples but the Christ returning (Revs) with double-edged sword flicking from his mouth to bring death suffering is one.

loverofhumanity · Sep 4, 2017

CG Didymus said:
But God told Joshua to go conquer and kill people.

Not completely innocent people He didn't.

Besides their horrific religious practices including ritual prostitution and child-sacrifice, these people were involved in wickedness in their day-to-day lives. If Lv 18 reflects Canaanites practices, they were regularly involved in incest, adultery, child-sacrifice, sodomy, and bestiality (Lv 18:6-23). God calls these practices the most heinous sin. It cannot be demonstrated that these practices contribute anything positive to society. Israel was not to do any of these practices (Lv 18:24-30). They were to kill or to drive the Canaanites into exile (Dt 20:16-18).(Moody's Bible Commentary)

God seems to allow us to go so far and then intervenes. There is just so much time allotted to us to change our ways. I believe we are given a certain amount of time to become acceptable but if we persist being corrupt God will not turn a blind eye forever.

We have the story Sodom which God destroyed because of its wickedness & who knows but that our Sodom moment is fast approaching when God will purge this earth of its corruption? Could it be another war? Or a geological event? Who knows? But if the Holy Roman Empire could fall then so can our current materialistic society collapse in a heap just like Sodom.

The likeness between Sodom and current day society is strikingly similar.

How are these Great Beings explained?

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