How are these Great Beings explained?

Vinayaka · Sep 3, 2017

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Yes each of these statements on their own have valid explanations that do not compromise the whole, they do not contradict each other.

You are free to differ.

Regards Tony

Sure thing. God exists, and God doesn't exist, not contradictory at all, lol.

InvestigateTruth · Sep 3, 2017

CG Didymus said:
I said: "embellished religious myth and stories". You say the impossible, unscientific things described in the Bible didn't happen but are symbolic. I think it is more likely they are religious myth-making. Did David kill Goliath by slinging a rock at him? Who knows, but it's a great spiritual story that shows the Jewish people how their God will help them through all obstacles. So what is the Baha'i explanation? Goliath represents the giant problems we face but the rock, the Word of the Lord, kills or conquers all worldly problems?

Actually, aren't we saying the same thing? The event didn't happen, but it teaches a spiritual truth? Only difference is you pretend that you believe in the Bible. I believe it might be true as is, maybe in a very literal way. But I think that probably the stories were embellished.

You think God told these writers to say things, that people misunderstood and took as literal, when God meant them to be symbolic... but God didn't tell the people that... Not until God told Baha'u'llah to tell them. So hundreds, if not thousands, of years before God made it clear to the people what he, God, meant by all these stories.

Whereas I think, people had their ideas of what is true and right and possibly, they, not God, made up the stories describing their God... who he was and what he expected of them. Maybe, it's only my guess. Yours is not a guess. Yours is supposedly the absolute truth. And, so far, I'm seeing flaws in it. The worst being that you really don't believe in any of the other religions as they are practiced and believed today. You believe all of them are wrong.

One of the Baha'is said the other religions are like "spoiled food" or "withered trees". Where's the oneness? Where's the unity? Where's the acceptance? jBaha'is are expecting them to see the "light" and see the error of following their wrong religious traditions? And come to believe in Baha'u'llah? Which is fine, in a way, but expect a lot of arguments and people pointing out a lot of contradictions.

I think when we want to investigate bible, we need to be consistent in our position.
I see this as three possible position:

1. Bible is from God: if this is our position, then there is no falsehood in Bible. We cannot say, Bible is from God, but can have false ideas in it. It cannot have contradictions. So, if we see contradictions, it is our own misinterpretations.

2. Bible is not from God: in this case we must have evidence and reasons why Bible is not from God.

3. We do not know if it is from God or not, let's be neutral and find out.

I think we need to be consistent in our position. We cannot have a mixed position. Otherwise, we cannot come to any conclusion.

Vinayaka · Sep 3, 2017

CG Didymus said:
If it is not a snake, I refuse to believe it was a true animal. All animals are snakes. Some just look different on the outside.

You're starting to sound like a true Baha'i'. They're getting to you.

CG Didymus · Sep 3, 2017

InvestigateTruth said:
I believe most of the things you are saying here, I have already replied to in post:

How are these Great Beings explained?

New thing you are bringing up is why not say everything is symbolic and did not happen. Why choosing some to be symbolic and some literal.

For me, the reason is Bahaullah. I rely on Him. He has fulfilled the prophecies of Bible, Islam, and other religions.
To me He is Manifestation of God, promised in Bible in many ways, such as return of Christ.
His words and teachings are source of wisdom and guidance. He did not go to school and did not have any significant training in religion, history, science, yet whenever they asked Him any question, He wrote a tablet from His mind, without having any books to learn from or get references from. His works are numbered to more than 17000 works, some of them are a whole Book, written in a just a day or two, as witnessed several times. Despite all these, not even a single mistake or error could be proven to exist in His writings.

Not one mistake? Who said that Krishna founded Hinduism? Or is that a misquote? Still, Adam a manifestation? That's gotta be a mistake. If he was even a real, historical person, he couldn't even follow the one rule God gave him... "Don't eat the forbidden fruit."

Vinayaka · Sep 3, 2017

CG Didymus said:
Not one mistake? Who said that Krishna founded Hinduism? Or is that a misquote? Still, Adam a manifestation? That's gotta be a mistake. If he was even a real, historical person, he couldn't even follow the one rule God gave him... "Don't eat the forbidden fruit."

Not one mistake. Many mistakes. You misunderstood.

TransmutingSoul · Sep 3, 2017

CG Didymus said:
"Each came to correct the mistakes and misunderstanding that man had made with Gods previous Messages. To bring back unity of thought in God"? How did Moses correct the mistakes of the previous religions? So Jesus "corrected" Judaism? Since he didn't write a thing, it was left to his followers to write down his "corrections" for Judaism. Did they get it right? They wrote stuff down. Other believers had to sort through the writings and figure out which ones were "authentic". They then had to interpret what it all meant.

So the corrections to Judaism: Jesus is God. You are lost in your sins. The Law can't save from. You can't save yourself. You need Jesus or you will be cast into hell with the devil. There are many more, but this is a good start. So really, how did Christianity "correct" Judaism? And still, how did any of the Abrahamic religions "correct" Buddhism and Hinduism and that other, seldom mentioned main religion, Zoroastrianism? Did any of them even mention those other religions?

The Religion becomes worship of mans Ideas of God, the all embracing spirit is forgotten. Those after power take hold.

All those questions have been answered in just one book of Baha'u'llah. It it the 'Book of Certitude' Kitab-i-iqan. It is worth taking the time to read this.

Also the 'Summons of the Lord of Hosts' by Baha'u'llah also is a valuable read. It contains many of the visions of the future and what Baha'u'llah has foretold.

Regards Tony

InvestigateTruth · Sep 3, 2017

CG Didymus said:
Not one mistake? Who said that Krishna founded Hinduism?

Who did say that?

Or is that a misquote? Still, Adam a manifestation? That's gotta be a mistake. If he was even a real, historical person, he couldn't even follow the one rule God gave him... "Don't eat the forbidden fruit."

Abdulbaha explained that, in Some Answered Questions.

CG Didymus · Sep 3, 2017

InvestigateTruth said:
I think when we want to investigate bible, we need to be consistent in our position.
I see this as three possible position:

1. Bible is from God: if this is our position, then there is no falsehood in Bible. We cannot say, Bible is from God, but can have false ideas in it. It cannot have contradictions. So, if we see contradictions, it is our own misinterpretations.

2. Bible is not from God: in this case we must have evidence and reasons why Bible is not from God.

3. We do not know if it is from God or not, let's be neutral and find out.

I think we need to be consistent in our position. We cannot have a mixed position. Otherwise, we cannot come to any conclusion.

The first position: Is everything in the Bible from God? Did he dictate it to the writers? Or, does it contain some ideas and interpretations from the writers mixed in with "inspired" writings?

Position Two: Do some of the things in it sound like myths and legends similar to other "religious" writings that most people accept as being nothing more than myth?

Position Three: Yes, I don't know for sure. But I do know that people that believe it to be from God can take their beliefs too far. Like when God said to his people to draw their swords and kill the person next to them. Really? God said that? Did they all audibly hear that command? I guess except those that were going to get stabbed to death. Yeah, I don't know about this God being real or not. Not to mention obliterating everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah. Or drowning everybody but Noah and his family. Or killing all the men, woman and children in Jericho.

But, there are many stories related to the Bible that weren't accepted as Scripture. Who wrote those? God or men? Obviously, since they weren't included in the Bible, they must have been thought to be written by men. So some stories can sound like Bible stories but are not from God.

What about the books that are included in some Bibles but not in others? Are they from God or man? Some say God. Some say man? What do Baha'is say? What about the Talmud? God inspired or God written? Or no, man-made interpretations and traditions? I think some Jews accept them as being God inspired. What about what the Pope says? God inspired or from man?

CG Didymus · Sep 3, 2017

Vinayaka said:
You're starting to sound like a true Baha'i'. They're getting to you.

Yes my brother, I've been bitten by the Word of Truth, the grand snake that winds itself around the hearts of men and squeezes out the impurities. Come with me and see the truth of the light that dispels all darkness. Where we can all slither together into the effulgent places upon the rocks warmed by the sun of reality. There we can shed the dead skin of self and become one with our little forked tongues speaking only the words of the wise one.

Or not, It's up to you. No coercion. You won't see me try and twist your arm. I can't force you to see that what you believe is a pile of a... a pile of dried out leaves that has fallen from a tree that once was alive with truth, but alas, has since withered and is as dead as a door nail. I can't make you believe that your traditions have carried you a million miles away from the truth. I refuse to tell you that your beliefs are wrong.

No, I wouldn't do that, because I love you and God loves you just the way you are... all lost and everything. But, there is always hope that you will see the error of your way and come to believe. But never, nigh, never will I ever point out how wrong you are in all the crazy things you believe in. No, not from me. The snake maybe, but not me.

(Disclaimer: Not to be read by Baha'is. If it is, it is in no way insinuating this is how you sound sometimes. You guys have been very good sports and have a very nice religion. Really.)

Ingledsva · Sep 3, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
Yes I fully agree with you that God is against abominations. You have mentioned a few of them.

But one mentioned clearly in the Bible you failed to mention so I am quoting it here....

Leviticus 18:22

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Strongs cross reference to 'lie' in the above verse.

h7901. שָׁכַב šâḵaḇ; a primitive root; to lie down (for rest, sexual connection, decease or any other purpose): — x at all, cast down, ((lover-))lay (self) (down), (make to) lie (down, down to sleep, still with), lodge, ravish, take rest, sleep, stay.

Why would I mention it? We were discussing SODOM, and the "cross reference."

I gave you ALL of the Tanakh texts mentioning SODOM and SEX.

Leviticus 18:21 through 23 is not about SODOM, obviously. And IT IS about Sacred SEX worship, which is idolatry.

Note it changes to sex in connection to Molech at 21.

Lev 18:21 as for Thy seed/semen don't give in sex/copulation (abar is also to cover, copulate,) to Molech don't profane the name of Elohiym; I am YHVH.

The next line is usually started - and with man don't - however the word also means - and for man, don't. And there is NO - "as with a."

Lev 18:22 and for man, don't lie down (for sex) in the beds of the women, Idolatrous is he.

Lev 18:22 and with man, don't lie down (for sex) in the beds of the women, Idolatrous is he.

The next line continues on with the other things we know they also did in Sacred Sex worship.

Lev 18:23 And you shall not give your semen with any animal, for uncleanness with it. And a woman shall not stand before an animal to lie down with it; it is a shameful mixing.

So, - With either translation of 22 - it is still talking about the Qadesh - Sacred Prostitutes, and the sin of IDOLATRY, and NOT about homosexuals

*

CG Didymus · Sep 3, 2017

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The Religion becomes worship of mans Ideas of God, the all embracing spirit is forgotten. Those after power take hold.

All those questions have been answered in just one book of Baha'u'llah. It it the 'Book of Certitude' Kitab-i-iqan. It is worth taking the time to read this.

Also the 'Summons of the Lord of Hosts' by Baha'u'llah also is a valuable read. It contains many of the visions of the future and what Baha'u'llah has foretold.

Regards Tony

Oh man, more homework. This investigating truth is really cutting into my goofing around time. But thanks anyway. I'll check it out.

CG Didymus · Sep 3, 2017

InvestigateTruth said:
Who did say that?

Abdulbaha explained that, in Some Answered Questions.

So no where in the Baha'i writings does it say Krishna founded Hinduism? I know I've seen it somewhere. Somebody in the Baha'i Faith said that. If not Baha'u'llah then is someone adding traditions to the Faith?

CG Didymus · Sep 3, 2017

Vinayaka said:
Not one mistake. Many mistakes. You misunderstood.

Oh, okay, now I see. Yeah, that clear it up.

Dawnofhope · Sep 3, 2017

CG Didymus said:
That's my point. One Baha'i said that by their fruits you shall know them. This implies that a religious groups doing good things must be from God. Well Mormons have "good" fruit. But "most scholars" think that the Book of Mormon is fiction. So I say a good religious fiction book can work to help and change people for the better... if it is believed by them to be true.

Your books help you. Theirs helps them. But... are either of them really true? I don't know for sure. But what do you do with them, The Mormons? A true or false belief? Is the Book of Mormon a made up story? But the fantastic, myth-sounding stories in the Bible are true and from God?

Your point is a reasonable one, in that the historical narrative is completely changed, yet the essential message of Christ remains.

The problem for the Christians and Mormons is their insistence on an historic narrative that lacks credibility in the light of modern science and scholarship.

Ingledsva · Sep 3, 2017

InvestigateTruth said:
... The main purpose of sex is to have children. ... Marriage in younger age is the right way, specially when in Bahai Law, Parents must give permission for their children to marry. Unfortunately, in today's society, many start having boyfriend/girlfriend relationships, without even caring about parents opinions....

Baloney! It is patriarchy taking away the rights of female children. Marry them off to older males (before they have the brain capacity to know to object,) and then make laws against divorce.

*

Dawnofhope · Sep 3, 2017

Katzpur said:
Thank you!

Yeah, I know. It is what it is.

You seem like a very nice person and the Mormons I've come across, mostly from their missionary work, have been courteous, respectful, and well organised in their presentation.

The question I always ask them, and I will ask you if you don't mind, is how you view the other religions?

Vinayaka · Sep 3, 2017

adrian009 said:
You seem like a very nice person and the Mormons I've come across, mostly from their missionary work, have been courteous, respectful, and well organised in their presentation.

The question I always ask them, and I will ask you if you don't mind, is how you view the other religions?

Here's the basics. Katzpur may beg to differ.

BBC - Religions - Mormon: Mormon attitudes to other faiths

Unveiled Artist · Sep 3, 2017

InvestigateTruth said:
Yes. I understand that. That is just the issue of how one uses words. What matters is the concept. However generally it is accepted that interpretation of Scriptures is of two kinds. 'Literal interpretation', and 'Figurative/Symbolic interpretation'. The former is when, the meaning is the outward meaning. The latter is when, the outward meaning is not intended.

Many christians don't consider a lot of biblical scripture as symbolic because the literal nature both concept and fact is experienced and written by god. To say that god writes only symbolitry when he meant a literal fact would be questioning god based on our not wanting to accept that people then walked on water and parted the red sea.

It's a take it or leave it, really.

InvestigateTruth · Sep 3, 2017

Ingledsva said:
Baloney! It is patriarchy taking away the rights of female children. Marry them off to older males (before they have the brain capacity to know to object,) and then make laws against divorce.

*

I don't think you really believe in what you say here. How can you drive such a quick conclusion?!
Don't you think you actually need more evidence to make a conclusion like this?
The burden of proof is on the one who makes the accusation.

InvestigateTruth · Sep 3, 2017

Carlita said:
Many christians don't consider a lot of biblical scripture as symbolic because the literal nature both concept and fact is experienced and written by god. To say that god writes only symbolitry when he meant a literal fact would be questioning god based on our not wanting to accept that people then walked on water and parted the red sea.

It's a take it or leave it, really.

Bahais do not believe God only writes in symbolic language. Some verses are literal and some verses are to be interpreted symbolically.

How are these Great Beings explained?

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