Culpability and Hell

LuisDantas · Sep 1, 2017

Mister Silver said:
When I refer to theists, I'm usually referring to the monotheistic ones. I don't think I should have to specifically label it every time.

I would hope that you reconsider at some point. I like theists when they are not going out of their way to antagonize me.

Mister Silver · Sep 1, 2017

LuisDantas said:
I would hope that you reconsider at some point. I like theists when they are not going out of their way to antagonize me.

Anyone is more likable when they're less antagonizing.

Skwim · Sep 1, 2017

Rival said:
Believe. This is terrible archaic grammar lol. Not sure if it was intended to be bad grammar. Sorry it just irked me. Lol.

I repeats 'em as I sees 'em.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).
source

IOW, if you believeth not in him you'll go to hell.

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Grandliseur · Sep 1, 2017

Skwim said:
The evidence.

As I count them there are basically two sources.

1. The Bible

The claim that the Bible teaches a hell of torment is wrong. Your quote from Revelation is not evidence to this.
The teaching of a hell of torment can be shown to be a church dogma, not a Biblical teaching. Once you examine the material closely, with a harmonious inclusive teaching of both the OT and the NT, there can be no doubt that death is the return to non-existence, the not being.

If you belong to a church, you will not accept my claim above, even with a lot of scriptures.

Link to some scriptures: >Truth Seeker - Judgment & Sheol<

JesusBeliever · Sep 2, 2017

Skwim said:
Building on these scriptures and others like them Christians have developed a pretty firm idea about what happens to the unbeliever. In fact, they make it pretty clear that god has no compunctions about assigning the non-believer to hell.

Hi there,
Your OP is just another example to me of why believers and non-believers alike would benefit from reading the Bible for ourselves, without any accompanying Commentary to tell us what it says or means. Because more often than not Scriptures are being overlooked and omitted in order to develop this "firm idea about what happens to the unbeliever". The more I've read the Bible for myself the LESS firm I have become in this particular instance. Let me give you just one example which I'd like to direct in response to the following quote:

Skwim said:
. . .ask me whether the man who died in unbelief can be saved, and I reply there is no atonement for that man. . . .You may look throughout the entire Bible, and you will find that there is no atonement for the man or woman who died in unbelief; there is no mercy for them. Had they been guilty of every other sin, if they had only believed, they would have been pardoned; but this is the damning exception--they had no faith. Devils seize them! O fiends of the pit, drag them downward to their doom! They are faithless and unbelieving, and such are the persons for whom hell was built. It is their place, their prison, they are the chief prisoners, the chains are engraved with their names, and they will forever know that, “he that does not believe will be damned.”

Romans 11:32 turns this statement on it's head:

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

If you read the verses preceding this it just drives the point home. The Apostle Paul even said of himself that he received mercy because he did what he did ignorantly in unbelief (1 Timothy 1:13). He even goes on to say that his obtaining of mercy was specifically set forward for us as a pattern of the long suffering of the Lord. (1 Timothy 1:16) Which the Apostle Peter later tells us is salvation (2 Peter 3:15). The last thing worthy of note about the Apostle Paul's conversion as a pattern is that it only came once the Lord appeared to him directly.

There is so much wrong with that above quote it makes my stomach turn. Especially the part where it says "you may look throughout the entire Bible, and you will not find...". Almost seems like an encouragement to not bother reading the Bible for yourself and instead believing what he says. I only hope it's not intentional by the writer.

Shadow Link · Sep 2, 2017

Skwim said:
So, is it fair that I go to hell because I'm unable to draw a straight line?
.

I think it's more like drawing straight enough to be able to connect the dots while going away with a bigger picture.

Skwim · Sep 2, 2017

JesusBeliever said:
Hi there,
Your OP is just another example to me of why believers and non-believers alike would benefit from reading the Bible for ourselves, without any accompanying Commentary to tell us what it says or means. Because more often than not Scriptures are being overlooked and omitted in order to develop this "firm idea about what happens to the unbeliever". The more I've read the Bible for myself the LESS firm I have become in this particular instance. Let me give you just one example which I'd like to direct in response to the following quote:

Romans 11:32 turns this statement on it's head:

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

If you read the verses preceding this it just drives the point home. The Apostle Paul even said of himself that he received mercy because he did what he did ignorantly in unbelief (1 Timothy 1:13). He even goes on to say that his obtaining of mercy was specifically set forward for us as a pattern of the long suffering of the Lord. (1 Timothy 1:16) Which the Apostle Peter later tells us is salvation (2 Peter 3:15). The last thing worthy of note about the Apostle Paul's conversion as a pattern is that it only came once the Lord appeared to him directly.

There is so much wrong with that above quote it makes my stomach turn. Especially the part where it says "you may look throughout the entire Bible, and you will not find...". Almost seems like an encouragement to not bother reading the Bible for yourself and instead believing what he says. I only hope it's not intentional by the writer.

Okay, *sigh* you've completely missed my point, which, as I put it, is,

"Building on these scriptures and others like them Christians have developed a pretty firm idea about what happens to the unbeliever. In fact, they make it pretty clear that god has no compunctions about assigning the non-believer to hell."

I'm not saying the example I posted and you've quoted necessarily conforms to every Christian's theology---disagree with it all you wish. In fact, I would expect that very few particular interpretations of scripture are necessarily agreed upon by everyone. HOWEVER, what you've chosen to take to task it is one example---the belief of at least one Christian---which along with others, illustrates my contention that: Christians have developed a pretty firm idea about what happens to the unbeliever. In fact, they make it pretty clear that god has no compunctions about assigning the non-believer to hell."

I'm not asking anyone to agree with all my examples, or necessarily any of them, but to simply realize that this is what some, (I would bet many if not most) Christians believe: that god has no compunctions about assigning the non-believer to hell. PERIOD!

Out of curiosity, isn't this what you believe: all else being equal, god will send the deliberate unbeliever to hell? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.

.

JesusBeliever · Sep 2, 2017

Skwim said:
Out of curiosity, isn't this what you believe: all else being equal, god will send the deliberate unbeliever to hell? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.

.

I was gonna do as you asked and just answer "no" to your question! That was until I noticed the word "deliberate" unbeliever???? That sounds like an oxymoron to me.

Skwim · Sep 2, 2017

JesusBeliever said:
I was gonna do as you asked and just answer "no" to your question! That was until I noticed the word "deliberate" unbeliever???? That sounds like an oxymoron to me.

Really? If you recall from my OP I mentioned those who are unbelievers because they never heard of Jesus and god's offer of salvation--- I'd call them ignorant unbelievers.They stand in contrast to those unbelievers who have heard of the salvation scheme but deliberately reject it. These are the deliberate unbelievers.

.

Desert Snake · Sep 2, 2017

DavidFirth said:
Skwim, for a person who doesn't believe in Christianity you sure seem to study it a lot.

And whether or not you go to hell isn't for us to decide.

John 3:36

Non belief may lead to HELL.

DavidFirth · Sep 2, 2017

LuisDantas said:
Not "God". That would make no sense.

Now, "blind belief in God", that is something.

I speak from personal experience with others. I don't speak with mockers about a God they don't believe in like you concerning any spiritual matter.

Rival · Sep 2, 2017

Skwim said:
I repeats 'em as I sees 'em.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).
source

IOW, if you believeth not in him you'll go to hell.

.

I believe
Thou believest
He she it believeth (mod. Believes)
We believe
You believe
Ye believe
They believe

LuisDantas · Sep 2, 2017

DavidFirth said:
I speak from personal experience with others.

So do I.

I don't speak with mockers about a God they don't believe in like you concerning any spiritual matter.

I can see why. It is good to avoid disputes that we know that we will lose. All the more so when we began those disputes by making broad and disrespectful judgements.

Backing down from them is prudent, albeit not as much as avoiding making them in the first place.

JesusBeliever · Sep 2, 2017

Skwim said:
Really? If you recall from my OP I mentioned those who are unbelievers because they never heard of Jesus and god's offer of salvation--- I'd call them ignorant unbelievers.They stand in contrast to those unbelievers who have heard of the salvation scheme but deliberately reject it. These are the deliberate unbelievers..

Right, ok I see where you're coming from now. Then my answer is no.

Skwim · Sep 2, 2017

Rival said:
I believe
Thou believest
He she it believeth (mod. Believes)
We believe
You believe
Ye believe
They believe

I don't believeth that for one minute.

.

Skwim · Sep 2, 2017

Mister Silver said:
Best seller is a subjective concept.

Not necessarily at all. In publishing "a bestseller is a book that is included on a list of top-selling or frequently-borrowed titles, normally based on publishing industry and book trade figures and library circulation statistics.
Source: Wikipedia.

When it comes to religion, I set the minimum figure at five million adherents.

.
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URAVIP2ME · Sep 2, 2017

Skwim said:
If Christianity didn't give people a reason to take it up no one would give it a second look, but create a need and then a means of meeting that need, and you've got the makings of a best seller.
.

Christianity, or rather Christendom ( so-called Christian but mostly in name only ) give it a second look.
KJV translated the word Gehenna into English as hellfire.
Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed Not kept burning forever.
That is why Psalms 92:7 says the wicked will be 'destroyed forever' ( annihilated ) Not burning.

URAVIP2ME · Sep 2, 2017

syncretic said:
John 3:36
Non belief may lead to HELL.

I don't see the word hell at John 3:36.
I see two (2) choices either 'everlasting life' or the Not seeing of (everlasting) life.
As 2 Peter 3:9 says it is either ' repent ' or ' perish ' ( be destroyed ).
According to Psalms 92:7 the wicked will be destroyed forever ( annihilated ) Not be in some burning place.

DavidFirth · Sep 2, 2017

LuisDantas said:
So do I.

I can see why. It is good to avoid disputes that we know that we will lose. All the more so when we began those disputes by making broad and disrespectful judgements.

Backing down from them is prudent, albeit not as much as avoiding making them in the first place.

That was prideful and idiotic. Surely you can do better next time.

Skwim · Sep 3, 2017

LuisDantas said:
So do I.

I can see why. It is good to avoid disputes that we know that we will lose. All the more so when we began those disputes by making broad and disrespectful judgements.

Backing down from them is prudent, albeit not as much as avoiding making them in the first place.

Bulls-eye.

DavidFirth said:
That was prideful and idiotic. Surely you can do better next time.

And sooo wide of the mark.

But we understand your predicament.

.

Culpability and Hell

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