Baptising the Dead?

Katzpur · Jul 23, 2006

uumckk16 said:
Not according to my dictionary, but okay.

Well, let's just say we believe God is a lot more merciful than a lot of Christians are.

Just as we believe there are different levels of salvation, it would probably be safe to say that we also believe there are different levels of damnation. But that's a whole new topic.

This is a completely obvious point, but: you're assuming you're right. I mean, of course you assume that. Everyone believes that what they believe is correct, otherwise they wouldn't believe it. But what if you're not? I think Victor makes a good point. We know babies will have a chance to reject their baptisms in this life if they so choose. We don't know what happens after our death - we can't possibly know. We believe things about what happens. For a moment let's assume that the LDS perspective is incorrect. I know there are some people who would be strongly opposed to being baptized after their deaths. In that case it is against their consent. Now, I can see why you feel this point to be completely, well, pointless, but if you look at it from an outsider's perspective, the infants actually have more of a choice as they can reject their baptism later in life if need be.

I'm afraid I disagree. What in the world kind of God would hold someone accountable for something he had absolutely no choice in? Certainly not the God I worship! To me it would be absolutely inconceivable that God would say to my great, great, great, great grandmother, "Well, your great, great, great, great granddaughter was baptized on your behalf. You're a Latter-day Saint now, and there's nothing you can do about it. Oh, and by the way, I detest the Latter-day Saints. They're all going to Hell, and you along with them. I know you were a Catholic all your life, and it sure is unfortunate that you're not one any more. I'm sorry to have to say it, but you're scewed."

Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa? They are considered non-believers, even though both were Christian? They were certainly both closer to being "believers" in the LDS sense than, say, Gandhi or Buddha. Do you think those individuals would be in Prison?

Did you read me correctly? I said I couldn't imagine them being anywhere but Paradise. They were both :angel2: !

I understand your faith that God will provide a way. But I still am not sure how you can possibly hope to baptize every non-LDS person who has ever lived. There are so many people even today who have no record of their existence. When natural disasters occur only an estimate of deaths can be provided. And that's today...in the past there were even less records. I suppose this is a rather fruitless point to make as you've made it clear that God will provide a way, but I just wanted to clarify a bit more what I meant.

You are absolutely right. This belief of ours transcends all logic.

SoyLeche · Jul 23, 2006

uumckk16 said:
I understand your faith that God will provide a way. But I still am not sure how you can possibly hope to baptize every non-LDS person who has ever lived. There are so many people even today who have no record of their existence. When natural disasters occur only an estimate of deaths can be provided. And that's today...in the past there were even less records. I suppose this is a rather fruitless point to make as you've made it clear that God will provide a way, but I just wanted to clarify a bit more what I meant.

This is going into the realm of speculation, but as I mentioned the 1000 year period after the 2nd Coming, I personally believe that during that time there will be somekind of communication between this world and the next. You mention people of whom there are no records. It's true that we don't know who they are, but you can bet that they know who they are. That information will somehow get communicated to the Earth.

dawny0826 · Jul 23, 2006

I present this to anyone who would like to answer. I'm just trying to understand a couple of things.

Polaris said:
While God considers our intentions, he also holds us to His commandments.

You're right. He does hold us to His commandments.

And we're to accept and follow those commandments now.

I agree that God is merciful and knows our intentions and knows our hearts.

But according to much of the NT...it's clear that we have a choice...we either choose life in Christ or death. And if we have not repented for our sins...we cannot be reconciled with God. This is what His Word says.

So, how do you reconcile your beliefs on "second chances" and baptism for the dead with what the Bible clearly states that we are to do now?

"Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:14

"Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness." Matthew 7:21-23

According to Matthew, Chapter 7...there are Christians on this earth who will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Why? Because they did not develop a personal relationship with Christ and did not live righteous lives.

How do you reconcile this to what your beliefs are on opportunities for redemption in the afterlife?

Would the lukewarm Christian be given a second chance? I just don't understand how someone who knowingly and willingly refused Christ or refused to live their lives, knowing and believing in Christ, as we were instructed to do...are pardoned in the afterlife for believing AFTER THE FACT...when they're faced with the choice...heaven or destruction.

Bishka · Jul 23, 2006

dawny0826 said:
Would the lukewarm Christian be given a second chance? I just don't understand how someone who knowingly and willingly refused Christ or refused to live their lives, knowing and believing in Christ, as we were instructed to do...are pardoned in the afterlife for believing AFTER THE FACT...when they're faced with the choice...heaven or destruction.

That I don't know dawn. I'm not sure how that all works, I've often wondered that myself. I think those people might be in spirit prison.

dawny0826 · Jul 23, 2006

beckysoup61 said:
That I don't know dawn. I'm not sure how that all works, I've often wondered that myself. I think those people might be in spirit prison.

I think it's always going to boil down to differences in interpretation. And I love you guys...so, I hope you know, I mean no harm...I just don't understand...

Where in the Bible, do LDS justify the act of baptising for the dead and preaching to dead? Is this more of a biblical belief or belief of the church?

1 Peter 3:18-22 references baptism for the dead but I think we read this in different context.

Do you read this the same way as I do?

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient when once the Divine longsuffering waiting in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. " 1 Peter 3:18-20

In these verses, we're told that it is Christ who brings us to God. He died in the flesh...as we die in the flesh when we accept Christ as our Saviour. We no longer live for our flesh...we live by the Spirit when we're saved.

The verses then say that Christ preached to those who FORMERLY were disobedient in the DAYS OF NOAH.

Then the next verses go on to say this...

"There is also an antitype which now saves us - baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him." 1 Peter 3:21

Then...when you read on into chapter 4 of the very same book...we're told how to LIVE and what type of mind we should have in Christ.

"Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men but for the will of God. For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles - when we walked in lewedness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties and abominable idolatries." 1 Peter 4:1-3

This past lifetime...isn't talking about our past lifetime like when we literally give up the ghost.

This is referring to our past lifetime...PRIOR to accepting Christ. We die to live. We abandon our FLESH to live in the Spirit.

"For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." 1 Peter 4:6

The dead here...aren't those who are in the grave...the dead being referenced are those who are dead to God in life...who have yet to accept Christ and living according to God's will.

Katzpur · Jul 23, 2006

dawny0826 said:
I present this to anyone who would like to answer. I'm just trying to understand a couple of things. You're right. He does hold us to His commandments. And we're to accept and follow those commandments now. I agree that God is merciful and knows our intentions and knows our hearts. But according to much of the NT...it's clear that we have a choice...we either choose life in Christ or death. And if we have not repented for our sins...we cannot be reconciled with God. This is what His Word says.

I think you raise some very good points, Dawny.

As you have undoubtedly noticed, I seldom quote from the Book of Mormon since I recognize that there is little point in my doing so. I hope you won't mind if I make an exception now, just for the purpose of clarifying our belief. I believe it says pretty much the same thing as you are saying.

Alma 34:32-34 states, "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors. And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world."

To begin with, we definitely don't believe that it's acceptable to be a lukewarm Christian in this life and then a loyal disciple of Christ in the Spirit World. We will be held accountable based on our knowledge and understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but we Latter-day Saints believe that God will also take into account certain extenuating circumstances.

For example... About ten years ago, my husband and I sponsored a Bosnian refugee family (a man, his wife and their two children) who had been granted political asylum and were being relocated here in Salt Lake City. They were Muslims. They fled their country where they had been severely persecuted by so-called "Christians." The man told us that one morning when his father went out to their barn, the second he opened the barn door, the barn (which had been booby-trapped) exploded into flames, killing him. This was typical of the kind of violence he and his family saw on a regular basis. I suspect that if the members of this family live to be a hundred, they will probably never become Christians, and to tell you the truth, I can't say that I blame them. According to LDS doctrine, he and his family will have a chance to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ again in the Spirit World. The political and cultural baggage which cloud his understanding now will be lifted and their eyes will be opened for the first time to the beauty of Christ's message.

So, how do you reconcile your beliefs on "second chances" and baptism for the dead with what the Bible clearly states that we are to do now?

Our focus is more on "first chances." Don't you believe that everyone at least deserves one chance to accept Jesus Christ's atonement? Surely you realize that millions died without ever having that chance.

"Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:14

Compare this scripture to Phillipians 2:10-11, which states, "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." If everyone will ultimately recognize that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Creator of our world, our Savior and Redeemer, how does that tie in with the scripture which states that there will be "few" who find eternal life? We believe that the "few" who find eternal life are those who were not lukewarm Christians. But we simply take into account the fact that it is impossible to be a devoted follower of Jesus Christ without knowing the first thing about Him and His Gospel.

"Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness." Matthew 7:21-23

According to Matthew, Chapter 7...there are Christians on this earth who will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Why? Because they did not develop a personal relationship with Christ and did not live righteous lives.

I could not possibly agree more. These are, in fact, some of my favorite passages, and I often quote them when speaking to Christians who believe that nothing is expected of us beyond having faith in Christ.

How do you reconcile this to what your beliefs are on opportunities for redemption in the afterlife?

Very simply... God knows who had a legitimate shot at understanding His Son's gospel in this life. He knows that my Bosnian friends were at an incredible disadvantage, and will allow them a "second chance" before judging them with the same degree of harshness with which He will probably judge me. He also knows that there are many who never had even as much exposure to Christianity as my Bosnian friends had. He won't condemn them to an eternity of suffering simply because they didn't develop of personal relationship with someone they never had a chance to know.

Would the lukewarm Christian be given a second chance? I just don't understand how someone who knowingly and willingly refused Christ or refused to live their lives, knowing and believing in Christ, as we were instructed to do...are pardoned in the afterlife for believing AFTER THE FACT...when they're faced with the choice...heaven or destruction.

We will all be judged only having played on a level playing field. The lukewarm Christian who truly understood the Gospel of Jesus Christ and wilfully chose to reject Him will probably not be given a second chance. But our doctrine focuses on those who didn't have that chance. Does that make sense?

dawny0826 · Jul 23, 2006

I think you raise some very good points, Dawny.

As you have undoubtedly noticed, I seldom quote from the Book of Mormon since I recognize that there is little point in my doing so. I hope you won't mind if I make an exception now, just for the purpose of clarifying our belief. I believe it says pretty much the same thing as you are saying.

Alma 34:32-34 states, "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors. And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world."

I can't disagree with any of that.

To begin with, we definitely don't believe that it's acceptable to be a lukewarm Christian in this life and then a loyal disciple of Christ in the Spirit World. We will be held accountable based on our knowledge and understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but we Latter-day Saints believe that God will also take into account certain extenuating circumstances.

We're on the same page about lukewarm Christianity.

For example... About ten years ago, my husband and I sponsored a Bosnian refugee family (a man, his wife and their two children) who had been granted political asylum and were being relocated here in Salt Lake City. They were Muslims. They fled their country where they had been severely persecuted by so-called "Christians." The man told us that one morning when his father went out to their barn, the second he opened the barn door, the barn (which had been booby-trapped) exploded into flames, killing him. This was typical of the kind of violence he and his family saw on a regular basis. I suspect that if the members of this family live to be a hundred, they will probably never become Christians, and to tell you the truth, I can't say that I blame them. According to LDS doctrine, he and his family will have a chance to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ again in the Spirit World. The political and cultural baggage which cloud his understanding now will be lifted and their eyes will be opened for the first time to the beauty of Christ's message.

I don't ask this question as a knock against your religion because I respect your religious views but I do want to ask...this belief...can you justify it biblically?

Our focus is more on "first chances." Don't you believe that everyone at least deserves one chance to accept Jesus Christ's atonement? Surely you realize that millions died without ever having that chance.

I do realize. This is one of those areas that I don't have a set belief on...I just trust that God knows what He's doing and leave it at that.

Compare this scripture to Phillipians 2:10-11, which states, "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Even Satan and his demons tremble at the sound of the Lord's voice. This doesn't mean that everyone who bows was HIS.

If everyone will ultimately recognize that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Creator of our world, our Savior and Redeemer, how does that tie in with the scripture which states that there will be "few" who find eternal life?

Recognizing and KNOWING are truly two different things.

We are ALL God's creations. No doubt...we will ALL BOW. Bowing doesn't mean we lived our lives for Him, followed His commandments or loved Him.

We believe that the "few" who find eternal life are those who were not lukewarm Christians. But we simply take into account the fact that it is impossible to be a devoted follower of Jesus Christ without knowing the first thing about Him and His Gospel.

I understand totally the thought process behind this. And this is one of those areas of my faith that unfortunately, I straddle the fence on.

But...fwiw, the LDS do take, I think, a logical approach to this issue.

We will all be judged only having played on a level playing field. The lukewarm Christian who truly understood the Gospel of Jesus Christ and wilfully chose to reject Him will probably not be given a second chance. But our doctrine focuses on those who didn't have that chance. Does that make sense?

It does make sense. And I appreciate you taking the time to answer.

Katzpur · Jul 23, 2006

dawny0826 said:
I think it's always going to boil down to differences in interpretation. And I love you guys...so, I hope you know, I mean no harm...I just don't understand...

No problem, Dawny. You are always extremely respectful. We don't mind at all that your interpretation is different from ours or that you can't accept our beliefs.

Where in the Bible, do LDS justify the act of baptising for the dead and preaching to dead? Is this more of a biblical belief or belief of the church?

Well, as I stated in my opening post, in 1 Corinthians 15:29, Paul used the practice of baptism for the dead as an argument to support the reality of the resurrection of us all. In referring to the members of Christs Church who were privileged to perform proxy baptisms (for not all are), he asked, Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

We don't base our doctrine on this one passage, but it definitely does support the fact that the first-century Christians were performing proxy baptisms. Most Christian scholars actually admit that this was the case. The problem is that there is so little in the Bible on the subject, that they don't quite know what to make of it. Our doctrine came about as a result of God speaking to a modern day prophet.

1 Peter 3:18-22 references baptism for the dead but I think we read this in different context.

Do you read this the same way as I do?

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient when once the Divine longsuffering waiting in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. " 1 Peter 3:18-20

In these verses, we're told that it is Christ who brings us to God. He died in the flesh...as we die in the flesh when we accept Christ as our Saviour. We no longer live for our flesh...we live by the Spirit when we're saved.

The verses then say that Christ preached to those who FORMERLY were disobedient in the DAYS OF NOAH.

Then the next verses go on to say this...

"There is also an antitype which now saves us - baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him." 1 Peter 3:21

Then...when you read on into chapter 4 of the very same book...we're told how to LIVE and what type of mind we should have in Christ.

"Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men but for the will of God. For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles - when we walked in lewedness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties and abominable idolatries." 1 Peter 4:1-3

This past lifetime...isn't talking about our past lifetime like when we literally give up the ghost.

This is referring to our past lifetime...PRIOR to accepting Christ. We die to live. We abandon our FLESH to live in the Spirit.

"For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." 1 Peter 4:6

The dead here...aren't those who are in the grave...the dead being referenced are those who are dead to God in life...who have yet to accept Christ and living according to God's will.

In a recent thread, you said something to the effect that you accept the idea of a literal "hellfire and brimstone" punishment for the wicked. We Latter-day Saints believe that phrase to be symbolic of the mental anguish the wicked will be forced to endure. On the other hand, we believe that when the scriptures say that Christ taught His gospel to the dead, that's what they mean. You ascribe a metaphorical meaning to these verses while we understand them literally. A lot of our disagreements center around which verses we should interpret literally and which ones we should interpret figuratively, wouldn't you agree?

Katzpur · Jul 23, 2006

Dawny,

It appears as if you and I are posting at the same time. If I have left any questions unanswered, please feel free to ask them again. Otherwise, I'll assume that they have been answered to your satisfaction.

Kathryn

dawny0826 · Jul 23, 2006

A lot of our disagreements center around which verses we should interpret literally and which ones we should interpret figuratively, wouldn't you agree?

I think that's probably it.

I have a better understanding of where you're coming. And I thank you kindly for answering my questions. I have to get my little ones to bed.

uumckk16 · Jul 24, 2006

Katzpur said:
Well, let's just say we believe God is a lot more merciful than a lot of Christians are. Just as we believe there are different levels of salvation, it would probably be safe to say that we also believe there are different levels of damnation. But that's a whole new topic.

Okay, that makes sense

Katzpur said:
I'm afraid I disagree. What in the world kind of God would hold someone accountable for something he had absolutely no choice in? Certainly not the God I worship! To me it would be absolutely inconceivable that God would say to my great, great, great, great grandmother, "Well, your great, great, great, great granddaughter was baptized on your behalf. You're a Latter-day Saint now, and there's nothing you can do about it. Oh, and by the way, I detest the Latter-day Saints. They're all going to Hell, and you along with them. I know you were a Catholic all your life, and it sure is unfortunate that you're not one any more. I'm sorry to have to say it, but you're scewed."

Sorry, my post wasn't very clear. I didn't mean at all that because someone was baptized after their death God would condemn them. I wasn't presuming to know anything about the afterlife. Now I can understand your confusion as I try to reword this, haha...hm. An outsider to the LDS faith most likely doesn't believe the person has the chance to accept or reject the baptism. My point wasn't that the baptism would effect them just because they did or didn't want it - my point was simply that we don't know if that's what they would want. Personally, if I died, and the LDS version of the afterlife was incorrect, I would not want to be baptized. And the feeling would probably be stronger for a devout, say, Muslism. Am I making any sense? Sorry for the confusion...

Katzpur said:
Did you read me correctly? I said I couldn't imagine them being anywhere but Paradise. They were both :angel2: !

Oh no no I understood. What I meant was that both people you chose as examples, while not LDS, were still Christian. So their beliefs were closer to LDS beliefs than those of, for example, Gandhi or Buddha, both of whom I would also consider to be righteous people. So I was just wondering what you thought of people who were still good people but weren't even close in belief to the LDS.

SoyLeche said:
This is going into the realm of speculation, but as I mentioned the 1000 year period after the 2nd Coming, I personally believe that during that time there will be somekind of communication between this world and the next. You mention people of whom there are no records. It's true that we don't know who they are, but you can bet that they know who they are. That information will somehow get communicated to the Earth.

That makes sense. And also since God knows who they are. With the 1000 year period the doctrine is more logical. My original question wasn't considering that.

Katzpur said:
Alma 34:32-34 states, "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors. And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world."

I'm a bit confused. It sounded in your original post that everyone would go to the Spirit World and have the chance to hear the Gospel. But your replies to Dawn seem to imply more that unless there were really good reasons for you not to be Christian, you won't get a second chance:

Katzpur said:
For example... About ten years ago, my husband and I sponsored a Bosnian refugee family (a man, his wife and their two children) who had been granted political asylum and were being relocated here in Salt Lake City. They were Muslims. They fled their country where they had been severely persecuted by so-called "Christians." The man told us that one morning when his father went out to their barn, the second he opened the barn door, the barn (which had been booby-trapped) exploded into flames, killing him. This was typical of the kind of violence he and his family saw on a regular basis. I suspect that if the members of this family live to be a hundred, they will probably never become Christians, and to tell you the truth, I can't say that I blame them. According to LDS doctrine, he and his family will have a chance to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ again in the Spirit World. The political and cultural baggage which cloud his understanding now will be lifted and their eyes will be opened for the first time to the beauty of Christ's message.

Obviously this is quite an extreme example. What about those who have heard about Christianity, have not been oppressed by it, have had plenty of chances to convert, perhaps have even read the Bible, but rejected it because they did not find it to be logical or it did not fit with who they were?

Then again, maybe this statement clears up my confusion:

Katzpur said:
We will all be judged only having played on a level playing field. The lukewarm Christian who truly understood the Gospel of Jesus Christ and wilfully chose to reject Him will probably not be given a second chance. But our doctrine focuses on those who didn't have that chance.

So you're saying only people who knew the Gospel was correct and yet still rejected it will not be given a second chance?

Sorry to sound so ignorant

Thanks for bearing with me

nutshell · Jul 24, 2006

That's right. Baptism for the Dead is not a second chance. It is the first chance for those who didn't get their fair chance to accept God's plan while on earth.

Katzpur · Jul 24, 2006

uumckk16 said:
An outsider to the LDS faith most likely doesn't believe the person has the chance to accept or reject the baptism. My point wasn't that the baptism would effect them just because they did or didn't want it - my point was simply that we don't know if that's what they would want. Personally, if I died, and the LDS version of the afterlife was incorrect, I would not want to be baptized. And the feeling would probably be stronger for a devout, say, Muslism. Am I making any sense? Sorry for the confusion...

I'm not sure if I'm following you or not, so if my answer doesn't make sense, I probably didn't understand the question.

Since we believe that a proxy baptism is totally without value of any kind unless accepted by the recipient of it, it's hard for us to understand why it would make any difference at all to someone "on the other side." Suppose you were required to eat a delicious piece of cheesecake before you were permitted to enter heaven, and that cheesecake had to have been prepared here on earth. So, all of the earth's cooks begin preparing cheesecakes which, as you are standing in line to enter heaven, are delivered to where you are waiting in line. There is a slice with your name on it. If you accept it, you are allowed to enter heaven. If you say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I hate cheesecake," the slice reserved for you is thrown away. Is it really such a big deal that it was baked especially for you and went uneaten? Well, the ingredients were wasted, as was the time spent preparing it, but from your standpoint, the only real loss is that when you get to the "pearly gates," St. Peter turns you away.

Oh no no I understood. What I meant was that both people you chose as examples, while not LDS, were still Christian. So their beliefs were closer to LDS beliefs than those of, for example, Gandhi or Buddha, both of whom I would also consider to be righteous people. So I was just wondering what you thought of people who were still good people but weren't even close in belief to the LDS.

To the best of my understanding, they will find themselves in Paradise.

I'm a bit confused. It sounded in your original post that everyone would go to the Spirit World and have the chance to hear the Gospel. But your replies to Dawn seem to imply more that unless there were really good reasons for you not to be Christian, you won't get a second chance.

Well, I'll admit it's a fine line and I don't know exactly where it's drawn. All I can say with any degree of certainty is that God knows us better even than we know ourselves, and infinitely better than we know each other. He wants us to be with Him throughout eternity, and He will provide us with every opportunity to do so. He is fully aware of who had a fair shot at understanding and accepting the Gospel (I'm speaking of the LDS version here) while they were here on earth and will undoubtedly take that into account. I suspect that the person who heard, fully understood and yet still rejected the Gospel here on earth out of pure stubbornness or spite has used up his chances.

Obviously this is quite an extreme example. What about those who have heard about Christianity, have not been oppressed by it, have had plenty of chances to convert, perhaps have even read the Bible, but rejected it because they did not find it to be logical or it did not fit with who they were?

I hope my answer in the above paragraph clarifies my understanding on this. There are a million different degrees of opression, in my opinion. Sometimes I wonder about people who were presented the Gospel by a couple of extremely sanctimonious Latter-day Saints who were judgmental, overbearing and impatient. If that was the only exposure a person ever had to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I'd like to think that God would provide him with just one more opportunity to hear it. Actually, I'd love to be able to second-guess God (it would ease my mind a great deal to know exactly where I stand with Him and where my children stand -- they were raised LDS, but no longer practice the faith), but I just can't. I can only explain the basics and trust Him to handle our salvation on a case by case basis.

So you're saying only people who knew the Gospel was correct and yet still rejected it will not be given a second chance?

That would probably be a fairly accurate statement, but again, it involves some speculation on my part, and I'm just not entirely comfortable making assumptions of that sort.

Sorry to sound so ignorant Thanks for bearing with me

No problem whatsoever!

Pah · Jul 24, 2006

Is anything but immersion disqualifying?

Katzpur · Jul 24, 2006

Pah said:
Is anything but immersion disqualifying?

We believe that baptism must not only be by immersion, but that it must be performed by someone who has been given the proper authority to do so. Jesus specifically went to John the Baptist to be baptized. He didn't just drop by a neighbor's house and ask that neighbor to accompany Him to the River Jordan to baptize Him. So, according to our belief, both the method of baptism and the authority to perform the baptism are essential.

Pah · Jul 24, 2006

Katzpur said:
We believe that baptism must not only be by immersion, but that it must be performed by someone who has been given the proper authority to do so. Jesus specifically went to John the Baptist to be baptized. He didn't just drop by a neighbor's house and ask that neighbor to accompany Him to the River Jordan to baptize Him. So, according to our belief, both the method of baptism and the authority to perform the baptism are essential.

I can see no problem with a proper authority in baptism for the spirit of ancestors, but how do you immerse a spirit. Immersion seems to require a corporal body

nutshell · Jul 24, 2006

Pah said:
I can see no problem with a proper authority in baptism for the spirit of ancestors, but how do you immerse a spirit. Immersion seems to require a corporal body

And that is exactly why we do baptism for the dead. Without a body they cannot receive baptism themselves. So the living act as a stand in and the spirit gets to choose if they accept the baptism or not.

Katzpur · Jul 24, 2006

Pah said:
I can see no problem with a proper authority in baptism for the spirit of ancestors, but how do you immerse a spirit. Immersion seems to require a corporal body

From my OP:

God loves all of His children equally and has provided a way for everyone who has ever lived to receive this ordinance prior to the Last Judgment.It goes without saying that baptism is an earthly ordinance. It would be quite impossible to immerse a spirit in water. Going back to point #1, though, baptism is a required ordinance for entry into the Kingdom of God. Those spirits who accept the Gospel message while in the Spirit World have completed the first two steps towards receiving the Savior's gift of salvation. But without the help of someone on earth, they can go no further.

Pah · Jul 24, 2006

Katzpur said:
From my OP:

God loves all of His children equally and has provided a way for everyone who has ever lived to receive this ordinance prior to the Last Judgment.It goes without saying that baptism is an earthly ordinance. It would be quite impossible to immerse a spirit in water. Going back to point #1, though, baptism is a required ordinance for entry into the Kingdom of God. Those spirits who accept the Gospel message while in the Spirit World have completed the first two steps towards receiving the Savior's gift of salvation. But without the help of someone on earth, they can go no further.

And how after the help of someone on earth can they be immersed? Very few of my ancestors were immersed prior to becoming spirit and I suspect that it would not be considered proper if they were by any other faith (probably tied up with to having have an authorized baptizer).

nutshell · Jul 24, 2006

Pah said:
And how after the help of someone on earth can they be immersed? Very few of my ancestors were immersed prior to becoming spirit and I suspect that it would not be considered proper if they were by any other faith (probably tied up with to having have an authorized baptizer).

Again, the living are immersed on behalf of the deceased by on having authority. The deceased decide for themselves if they accept it or not.

Baptising the Dead?

Not your average Mormon

meh...

Mother Heathen

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