Some musings on hell

In this post, I am going to briefly highlight my thoughts on the concept of hell and "eternal punishment" that is found in many religions, most notably in Christianity and Islam and why the "hell" that is presented in these religions is necessarily immoral and unjust. In these religions, eternal suffering in hell is declared to be the just punishment for "sins," which are so-called infractions against the god. However, it should be quite obvious that acts of immorality committed by humans must necessarily be finite in nature, since the human lifespan is finite. Infinite punishment for finite crimes is necessarily unjust. It also makes no sense mathematically. Let's say we would like to think of God's game of cosmic retribution as a mathematical equation. Suppose the "sins" commit against it are considered to be subtractions from one side of the equation, and then God is compelled to "balance" the equation by adding a quantity back that is equal to the amount subtracted by his creations. This added quantity would be the punishment that he would visit upon his creations. If a finite number is subtracted from one side of an equation, the equation is no longer an equation if infinity is added to that side. This is one, logical way of objecting to the morality of eternal punishment.

Possible objection 1: Sins are infinite because they are crimes against an infinite god. However, this certainly does not follow. In fact, the exact opposite would be true. Crimes committed against the less powerful are worse than crimes committed against the more powerful. For example, stealing $100 from an impoverished person is a much more heinous act than stealing $100 from a billionaire, because in the case of the former, it is a much larger percentage of his/her wealth. It logically follows that an infinite being cannot even be effected by humans at all, which would imply that any sins committed against it would be infinitely small atrocities.

Possible objection 2: God can do whatever he wants, even if it disagrees with your concept of what is "logical." This is also untrue. Even a god cannot violate logic. If you disagree, then answer this question. Can God create a square circle? Or, more pertinent to the topic at hand, can God create a universe where 7+2 does not equal 19-10? Can God create a universe where 5 does not equal 5?

I've always been quite fond of the logical conclusion that hell is the creation of those who think earthly justice is unsatisfactory. For the religious sadist, it is pleasurable to imagine one burning forever in hellfire.

Hubert Farnsworth said:

In this post, I am going to briefly highlight my thoughts on the concept of hell and "eternal punishment" that is found in many religions, most notably in Christianity and Islam and why the "hell" that is presented in these religions is necessarily immoral and unjust. In these religions, eternal suffering in hell is declared to be the just punishment for "sins," which are so-called infractions against the god. However, it should be quite obvious that acts of immorality committed by humans must necessarily be finite in nature, since the human lifespan is finite. Infinite punishment for finite crimes is necessarily unjust. It also makes no sense mathematically. Let's say we would like to think of God's game of cosmic retribution as a mathematical equation. Suppose the "sins" commit against it are considered to be subtractions from one side of the equation, and then God is compelled to "balance" the equation by adding a quantity back that is equal to the amount subtracted by his creations. This added quantity would be the punishment that he would visit upon his creations. If a finite number is subtracted from one side of an equation, the equation is no longer an equation if infinity is added to that side. This is one, logical way of objecting to the morality of eternal punishment.

Possible objection 1: Sins are infinite because they are crimes against an infinite god. However, this certainly does not follow. In fact, the exact opposite would be true. Crimes committed against the less powerful are worse than crimes committed against the more powerful. For example, stealing $100 from an impoverished person is a much more heinous act than stealing $100 from a billionaire, because in the case of the former, it is a much larger percentage of his/her wealth. It logically follows that an infinite being cannot even be effected by humans at all, which would imply that any sins committed against it would be infinitely small atrocities.

Possible objection 2: God can do whatever he wants, even if it disagrees with your concept of what is "logical." This is also untrue. Even a god cannot violate logic. If you disagree, then answer this question. Can God create a square circle? Or, more pertinent to the topic at hand, can God create a universe where 7+2 does not equal 19-10? Can God create a universe where 5 does not equal 5?

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Yep, and the idea that one should burn in Hell just for being born into, or believing in, another religion, or none, would make that god an evil sadist.

If there is a god, - that isn't it.

*

The notion that God would torture someone for eternity for any reason was enough for me to reject classic western literalist theology. Non-literal interpretations such as the reality that being in pain seems to be endless to the sufferer and disconnected with clock time is a different matter.

When I identified as a Christian, I viewed hell as merely a place absent of God, and his mercy. Like a stark, lonely place, not necessarily that you would be frying in a hot place for all eternity. Even the concept of reincarnation has people returning as 'lesser than' they were in the former life, if they didn't live up to their potential. I happen to think that life is a lot about potential, living up to our potential is up to us, and we can face dire consequences on earth if we don't stay true to ourselves, and our own potential. I'd say Potential with capital P, but I don't want to get all deep on y'all.

Hubert Farnsworth said:

In this post, I am going to briefly highlight my thoughts on the concept of hell and "eternal punishment" that is found in many religions, most notably in Christianity and Islam and why the "hell" that is presented in these religions is necessarily immoral and unjust. In these religions, eternal suffering in hell is declared to be the just punishment for "sins," which are so-called infractions against the god. However, it should be quite obvious that acts of immorality committed by humans must necessarily be finite in nature, since the human lifespan is finite. Infinite punishment for finite crimes is necessarily unjust. It also makes no sense mathematically. Let's say we would like to think of God's game of cosmic retribution as a mathematical equation. Suppose the "sins" commit against it are considered to be subtractions from one side of the equation, and then God is compelled to "balance" the equation by adding a quantity back that is equal to the amount subtracted by his creations. This added quantity would be the punishment that he would visit upon his creations. If a finite number is subtracted from one side of an equation, the equation is no longer an equation if infinity is added to that side. This is one, logical way of objecting to the morality of eternal punishment.

Possible objection 1: Sins are infinite because they are crimes against an infinite god. However, this certainly does not follow. In fact, the exact opposite would be true. Crimes committed against the less powerful are worse than crimes committed against the more powerful. For example, stealing $100 from an impoverished person is a much more heinous act than stealing $100 from a billionaire, because in the case of the former, it is a much larger percentage of his/her wealth. It logically follows that an infinite being cannot even be effected by humans at all, which would imply that any sins committed against it would be infinitely small atrocities.

Possible objection 2: God can do whatever he wants, even if it disagrees with your concept of what is "logical." This is also untrue. Even a god cannot violate logic. If you disagree, then answer this question. Can God create a square circle? Or, more pertinent to the topic at hand, can God create a universe where 7+2 does not equal 19-10? Can God create a universe where 5 does not equal 5?

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Hell is...
...not a place.
It is void of Time and Space,
Filled with racing thoughts and hopeless dreams,
Burning pain and endless screams.
Hell is an experience, not a place,
Designed to bring light to the human race.

On the question of suffering in the world, it is often a source of debate for Abrahamic theists; how can a loving god allow suffering in the short term, never mind suffering for all eternity? I think we should let god answer the question in his own words, I give you the rambling and scarcely coherent rant from Yahweh in the book of Job; Job 38-41.

The deity basically says to Job "Shut the f*ck up, who are you? Are you a deity? Did you make the universe? No? Right, well don't tell me my job boy [no pun intended], or I'll just heap more pain and misery on your shoulders, got it? I get to do whatever I like, so shut your whiney face." I think my paraphrase is a crude but accurate summary, it captures the gist of the message. Stop whining about suffering in the short term, stop whining about eternal suffering for that matter. You're not god are you? Right, well now you know your place just get on with it and be happy the deity chose to give you life in the first place. If he chooses to torture people for all eternity, that is his business, not yours. If you happen to be one of the ones subjected to eternal torture, just be grateful the deity allows you to exist still (even if it is in a constant state of stress and pain). It isn't your place to judge god, your miserable wretch.

Happy days!

Hubert Farnsworth said:

In this post, I am going to briefly highlight my thoughts on the concept of hell and "eternal punishment" that is found in many religions, most notably in Christianity and Islam and why the "hell" that is presented in these religions is necessarily immoral and unjust. In these religions, eternal suffering in hell is declared to be the just punishment for "sins," which are so-called infractions against the god. However, it should be quite obvious that acts of immorality committed by humans must necessarily be finite in nature, since the human lifespan is finite. Infinite punishment for finite crimes is necessarily unjust. It also makes no sense mathematically. Let's say we would like to think of God's game of cosmic retribution as a mathematical equation. Suppose the "sins" commit against it are considered to be subtractions from one side of the equation, and then God is compelled to "balance" the equation by adding a quantity back that is equal to the amount subtracted by his creations. This added quantity would be the punishment that he would visit upon his creations. If a finite number is subtracted from one side of an equation, the equation is no longer an equation if infinity is added to that side. This is one, logical way of objecting to the morality of eternal punishment.

Possible objection 1: Sins are infinite because they are crimes against an infinite god. However, this certainly does not follow. In fact, the exact opposite would be true. Crimes committed against the less powerful are worse than crimes committed against the more powerful. For example, stealing $100 from an impoverished person is a much more heinous act than stealing $100 from a billionaire, because in the case of the former, it is a much larger percentage of his/her wealth. It logically follows that an infinite being cannot even be effected by humans at all, which would imply that any sins committed against it would be infinitely small atrocities.

Possible objection 2: God can do whatever he wants, even if it disagrees with your concept of what is "logical." This is also untrue. Even a god cannot violate logic. If you disagree, then answer this question. Can God create a square circle? Or, more pertinent to the topic at hand, can God create a universe where 7+2 does not equal 19-10? Can God create a universe where 5 does not equal 5?

Click to expand...

Humans have often misunderstood revelation, primarily because you're so selfish, you think everything is about you or should be about you.

When Jesus was talking about hell He was giving a warning to Lucifer, not humans. Hell is a disconnection from God, since nothing can actually disconnect from God it is like turning that thing off permanently. God remembers every experience that individual had but the person is never activated again.

Humans think that others should believe the same things they believe, if not, you should be punished. The idea of an eternal fire torture is perfect.

Sins are not infinite because the number of beings in the universe are not infinite. Also, created beings are initially very sinful and, over time, evolve into beings that no longer commit sin, so, the number of sins happening in the universe is not increasing at some great rate.

God being infinite doesn't mean that His infiniteness is realized in the universe. God comes from an infinite source so He can potentially create infinite universes with an infinite number of beings but He has not reached that amount yet and probably will never reach an infinite amount.

Sin is an advanced concept that humans do not fully understand. To commit a sin you have to be an angel who knows the divine plan and chooses to go against it. The divine plan is not God's plan, it's the angels plan. Humans are not angels so they do not fall under this law. You were taught the concept of sin to understand the Lucifer Rebellion and how it has affected things on the earth.

Sin is not a crime against God, regardless of what the bible says. No one can commit a crime against God. You were given free will. Even the angels have free will. But, if you are an angel and you go against the divine plan, commit sin, there are consequences.

Even God cannot violate logic? Logic is not truth. You atheists always make that mistake. Logic is the study of arguing, a primitive study at that. It simply means your stated conclusion agrees with your stated premise. That's it. Something that is completely logical can be untrue. If someone thinks the sky is brown and argues constantly that the sky is brown is using an argument that is valid and logical even though it is wrong.

Can God create a square circle? No. God created math. He created it to follow certain rules.

Can God create a universe where 7+2 does not equal 19 - 10? Don't know. That's way, way, way beyond my ability to imagine and also way, way, way beyond yours as well. I don't have to be able to answer that question to believe in God. We don't have to be able to answer every crazy question someone asks to believe in God. If these are your rules for believing, then don't believe.

Hubert Farnsworth said:

However, it should be quite obvious that acts of immorality committed by humans must necessarily be finite in nature, since the human lifespan is finite. Infinite punishment for finite crimes is necessarily unjust.

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Hell is the consequence of an obstinate rejection of God. It is the irrevocability of that decision which lends to hell its eternity, not the weight of your particular sins. To reject God who created you and has given you every grace towards your salvation is the one sin he will not forgive, hence the eternity of hell. Matthew 12:31

The rest of paragraph is just the same point rehashed, so moving on.

Possible objection 1: Sins are infinite because they are crimes against an infinite god. However, this certainly does not follow. In fact, the exact opposite would be true. Crimes committed against the less powerful are worse than crimes committed against the more powerful.

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But it does follow. To insult the mercy of God by an obstinate refusal of that mercy merits an infinite retribution. To insult infinite goodness is to commit infinite evil.

Regardless God (who is the good itself) commits no crime against his creatures. Since everything comes from God, everything is thus owed to God. God cannot steal what he already possesses and since everything you have and can ever gain (including eternal happiness in heaven) can only come from God it follows that you owe God an eternal gratitude. This is part of the reason why God demands worship, not because he needs it (God being infinite has nothing to gain) but because you owe him a debt you can never repay. Every moment of your existence comes from his resources, not your own.

Possible objection 2: God can do whatever he wants, even if it disagrees with your concept of what is "logical." This is also untrue. Even a god cannot violate logic. If you disagree, then answer this question. Can God create a square circle? Or, more pertinent to the topic at hand, can God create a universe where 7+2 does not equal 19-10? Can God create a universe where 5 does not equal 5?

Click to expand...

There's nothing illogical or contradictory about God reprobating those who reject him to hell.

For our freedom to be meaningful, the potential to reject God must exist. God evidently values human freedom to such a point that he is willing to allow at least some humans to damn themselves forever.

Hubert Farnsworth said:

In this post, I am going to briefly highlight my thoughts on the concept of hell and "eternal punishment" that is found in many religions, most notably in Christianity and Islam and why the "hell" that is presented in these religions is necessarily immoral and unjust. In these religions, eternal suffering in hell is declared to be the just punishment for "sins," which are so-called infractions against the god. However, it should be quite obvious that acts of immorality committed by humans must necessarily be finite in nature, since the human lifespan is finite. Infinite punishment for finite crimes is necessarily unjust. It also makes no sense mathematically. Let's say we would like to think of God's game of cosmic retribution as a mathematical equation. Suppose the "sins" commit against it are considered to be subtractions from one side of the equation, and then God is compelled to "balance" the equation by adding a quantity back that is equal to the amount subtracted by his creations. This added quantity would be the punishment that he would visit upon his creations. If a finite number is subtracted from one side of an equation, the equation is no longer an equation if infinity is added to that side. This is one, logical way of objecting to the morality of eternal punishment.

Possible objection 1: Sins are infinite because they are crimes against an infinite god. However, this certainly does not follow. In fact, the exact opposite would be true. Crimes committed against the less powerful are worse than crimes committed against the more powerful. For example, stealing $100 from an impoverished person is a much more heinous act than stealing $100 from a billionaire, because in the case of the former, it is a much larger percentage of his/her wealth. It logically follows that an infinite being cannot even be effected by humans at all, which would imply that any sins committed against it would be infinitely small atrocities.

Possible objection 2: God can do whatever he wants, even if it disagrees with your concept of what is "logical." This is also untrue. Even a god cannot violate logic. If you disagree, then answer this question. Can God create a square circle? Or, more pertinent to the topic at hand, can God create a universe where 7+2 does not equal 19-10? Can God create a universe where 5 does not equal 5?

Click to expand...

Hubert....... Thanks for a great thread. For an atheist it is a constant revelation to hear the incredible descriptions of gods and what they can do and can't do. I personally adhere to notions of cause and effect that I think are the bedrock, the foundations of our reality. In my universe of cause and effect, gods cannot insert themselves at will between any cause and effect. Some people claim a god can cure illness, or influence the weather, but that's madness, for without any standard of agreement upon what a god is, or why a god may or may not operate with or without cause and effect, there is no way of knowing anything, it's all guesswork. Which is what religion is..... guesswork. If only a god would show up....... This atheist's point of view remains that men and women create gods and goddesses, and not the opposite.....

Musing Bassist said:

To insult the mercy of God by an obstinate refusal of that mercy merits an infinite retribution. To insult infinite goodness is to commit infinite evil.

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So, lemme get this straight. God says: "I love you perfectly, and you had better believe that I love you perfectly, because if you ever question or disbelieve my perfect love for you, I'm gonna torture you forever." This "god" sounds like a deranged, sadistic psychopath, or more precisely, a construct of the imagination of a deranged psychopathic human.

The Holy Bottom Burp said:

On the question of suffering in the world, it is often a source of debate for Abrahamic theists; how can a loving god allow suffering in the short term, never mind suffering for all eternity? I think we should let god answer the question in his own words, I give you the rambling and scarcely coherent rant from Yahweh in the book of Job; Job 38-41.

The deity basically says to Job "Shut the f*ck up, who are you? Are you a deity? Did you make the universe? No? Right, well don't tell me my job boy [no pun intended], or I'll just heap more pain and misery on your shoulders, got it? I get to do whatever I like, so shut your whiney face." I think my paraphrase is a crude but accurate summary, it captures the gist of the message. Stop whining about suffering in the short term, stop whining about eternal suffering for that matter. You're not god are you? Right, well now you know your place just get on with it and be happy the deity chose to give you life in the first place. If he chooses to torture people for all eternity, that is his business, not yours. If you happen to be one of the ones subjected to eternal torture, just be grateful the deity allows you to exist still (even if it is in a constant state of stress and pain). It isn't your place to judge god, your miserable wretch.

Happy days!

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Funny how man-made gods tend to reflect the worst traits of the men who design them.

Hubert Farnsworth said:

So, lemme get this straight. God says: "I love you perfectly, and you had better believe that I love you perfectly, because if you ever question or disbelieve my perfect love for you, I'm gonna torture you forever." This "god" sounds like a deranged, sadistic psychopath, or more precisely, a construct of the imagination of a deranged psychopathic human.

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No. Rather:

"I love you beyond your merit and want you to be happy with me forever. However, I am goodness itself and thus in order that you may stand within my presence it is necessary that your disposition be aligned toward my good. This is impossible for you to sufficiently accomplish under your own power, but Christ (who is both God and man) has taken on the balance and though his mediation your salvation has become possible so long as you will accept that offer. You don't have to, you can embrace evil if that is your will. But should you die in that state know that you permanently cut yourself off from my graces. There you will forever suffer the consequences of evil to the degree in which you have embraced it.

Since all good comes from me as an unearned gift, to cut yourself off from me will leave nothing for you but pain and misery. I want to to be happy, but not despite of yourself and your freedom."

It's not that our sins hurt God, it is that they render us less capable of understanding, accepting and living in alignment with the good. In traditional language, sin darkens the intellect and eventually leads to spiritual ruin. It has even been reported by visionaries (such as Saint Faustina) who have been given glimpses of hell that even if God were to give the reprobate an opportunity to repent they (so deluded by evil) would unanimously reject it. People go to Hell, because they would rather suffer than to let go of their sinful attachments. Their wills are so darkened by sin that the light of God is just too much for them to bear. Hell essentially, is the inability to look at God.

By earlier mentioned saint said:

I received a deeper understanding of divine mercy. Only the soul that wants it will be damned, for God condemns no one" (Diary, 1452).

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Hell is actually a mercy, for it would be even more insufferable for those who hate God to be forced into heaven. It would be like dragging a person out of a dark room, and forcing him to stare directly at the sun. Without protective gear (grace) he would go blind.

Musing Bassist said:

No. Rather:

"I love you beyond your merit and want you to be happy with me forever. However, I am goodness itself and thus in order that you may stand within my presence it is necessary that your disposition be aligned toward my good. This is impossible for you to sufficiently accomplish under your own power, but Christ (who is both God and man) has taken on the balance and though his mediation your salvation has become possible so long as you will accept that offer. You don't have to, you can embrace evil if that is your will. But should you die in that state know that you permanently cut yourself off from my graces. There you will forever suffer the consequences of evil to the degree in which you have embraced it.

Since all good comes from me as an unearned gift, to cut yourself off from me will leave nothing for you but pain and misery. I want to to be happy, but not despite of yourself and your freedom."
.

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There are problems with this line of thinking. For one, who defines what is "good?" According to most Christians, morality is dictated by the will of God. In other words, Christian morals are nothing more than "might makes right." God says he is good, and he is good because he says so. If we disagree with God's definition of good, then we are wrong. Why? Because God is the most powerful being in the universe, according to the religious. So, his definition of morality stands because he has the ability to enforce it. Again, might makes right according to your worldview.

Secondly, the term "accept" is deceiving. I can't speak for all non-Christians, but I have a good feeling that the vast majority of us non-believers are not refusing to accept a free gift from God. Rather, it is that we just do not see enough evidence to believe. Many Christians ask atheists/agnostics what it would take for us to be convinced of the existence of their god. I've got an answer for you: If you pray over a severed limb in Jesus' name, and the limb grows back before my eyes, you've converted me.

Hubert Farnsworth said:

There are problems with this line of thinking. For one, who defines what is "good?

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It is not that God arbitrarily decrees what is good, rather God is the good. As God said to Moses: "I am who I am."

God is fundamentally different in that as God he is his own attributes. God isn't good, he is the good; God doesn't exist, he is existence. Jesus describes himself not as someone with the truth but as the truth. Indeed John calls him the Logos. (The rational principle of God from which all created phenomena derive). Good and evil isn't an arbitrary imposition of God, good is an objective reality of God and evil its privation. The good simply is what the good is.

God says he is good, and he is good because he says so. If we disagree with God's definition of good, then we are wrong.

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Yes, because not only did God create world, he is the good. God is the reality behind it all and as such, one would think that he is eminently qualified to judge on what is good and what is evil.

Why? Because God is the most powerful being in the universe, according to the religious. So, his definition of morality stands because he has the ability to enforce it. Again, might makes right according to your worldview.

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I do not mean to belittle you but you do not grasp what God is in the Christian tradition.

Ipsum esse subsistens.

God isn't in the universe, he created it; God isn't a being, he is being. God's morality is the objective truth of what it means to be good because God is the good, he is the truth.

It may seem like I am belaboring the point but this is so essential to understand. Christianity (or even theism in general) doesn't make sense without this understanding, which is unfortunately so often alien to the modern mindset. The educated Greek for example understood exactly what Saint John meant by the notion of Christ as the Word (Logos) the modern, not so much. It's even worse when the modern not only does not understand but actively resists in doing so.

Again, might makes right according to your worldview.

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No, it is more that you don't actually understand it. Your entire description of God (while potentially being apt in describing the faith of some Southern Baptist who has never thought all that hard about it) is a complete strawman.

Secondly, the term "accept" is deceiving. I can't speak for all non-Christians, but I have a good feeling that the vast majority of us non-believers are not refusing to accept a free gift from God. Rather, it is that we just do not see enough evidence to believe.

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How serious is the typical non-believer in searching for God, especially if by finding him they will have to reform their lives?

While I may not be able to see into anyone's soul I suspect that there is a significant percentage of people who do not so much not believe but simply do not want to, that for many people the problem is the will and not the intellect. I know that this is almost certainly the case for hostile atheist type. You know the type that never shuts up about his atheism and gets angry at any hint of religious sentiment. Heck, I have even had anger directed at me (in person) for no other reason than the suspicion that I was Christian. (I was not at that time). Don't tell me there isn't anything more than a "lack of belief" going on there. Because it's laughable to be so emotionally invested in the fact that you don't believe something.

Romans 1:19-21

I am not of course denying the existence of sincere non-believers, even I grapple with doubt from time to time and in that case I simply have to trust in the mercy of God in dealing with them.

Many Christians ask atheists/agnostics what it would take for us to be convinced of the existence of their god. I've got an answer for you: If you pray over a severed limb in Jesus' name, and the limb grows back before my eyes, you've converted me.

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You say that but I suspect the truth would be very different. No one who is already determined against the possibility of Christianity will accept anything so long as there's a sliver of deniability.

Demanding that God personally provide you with absolute certainty is a sure fire way to never get it. You need the humility to approach God on his terms (which includes faith) not demand that he approach you on yours.

Some likely things found in Hell.....
- Spearmint potato chips
- Yoko Ono performs Chinese opera
- Mohawk limburger wine

Revoltingest said:

Some likely things found in Hell.....
- Spearmint potato chips
- Yoko Ono performs Chinese opera
- Mohawk limburger wine

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Your friend Homer said there was pineapple in the cottage cheese.

Nowhere Man said:

Your friend Homer said there was pineapple in the cottage cheese.

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Are you sure you're not thinking of Ned Flanders putting cucumbers in his cottage cheese?