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Why Do We Teach Kids To Be Good?

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Title seems a bit silly huh? Obviously we should. Or...wait...

All their young lives our children are taught to be honest, to be fair, to be moderate and kind. These along with a whole host of other moral virtues that our society says it values.

Until they grow up.

The world is a harsh, cruel place where it's first come first serve, you have to be ruthless, to lie, to cheat and do anything to get that job. It's tough out there you know (implying that everyone else is a soulless b*stard).

So really, our society doesn't value these morals so much. If at all. I'd go so far as to say it doesn't at all. I mean can you imagine if hiring employees was an ethical practice? If buying and selling were ethical? If adverts were honest about products? Then we'd value moral virtue.

The mantra seems to be 'Be moral...when it suits you.'

So what gives? Why bother teaching kids to be good at all? It's not like we value it.

I teach my kids good morals and ethics because I want them to be better than the lowest denominator. It builds self-respect and self-worth, better social skills, etc. How you conduct yourself and how you treat others affects how others perceive and treat you.
That doesn't mean shelter them from the dark and cold realities of the world that they may face, but rather prepare them to successfully deal with and overcome such realities rather than succumb to them.
Societies are built upon codes of morals and ethics, as they would be unable survive and thrive without peace, order, and cooperation, which requires mutual of trust and fairness. Individuals have to maintain positive reputations in this regard. The more developed the ethics and morals, the more developed the society.
In my opinion, reason and compassion are the basis for superior ethics and morals.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Are you resorting to ad hominem attacks just because you're unable to defend your views with facts?

Apple's Chinese employees are allowed to quit their jobs. They can go search for a better opportunity. Slaves do not receive the same benefit.

There are 30 million people worldwide who are slaves, forced to be laborers, prostitutes, or child soldiers. They can't quit. Instead of making noise about that, you're attacking companies that are offering jobs at wages comparable to the rest of the country they operate in.


By global standards, U.S. minimum wage is considered "upper-middle income" (living on $20-$50 per day).
Apple's Chinese employees are "middle income" (living on $10-$20 per day).
56% of the global population is "low income" (living on $2-$10 per day).
15% of the global population is "poor" (living on $0-$2 per day).

Approximately 91% of the global population works for wages below U.S. minimum wage, just so they have a job. Compared to Haiti's bayakou (who earn $4 per day while standing naked in human excrement), the Apple employees appear to have a dream job.

You don't even understand why Apple doesn't simply double the factory workers' wages.
Instead of being outraged at employers, why don't you spend a few minutes learning why things are this way?

By law, corporations owe a fiduciary duty to their shareholders. Apple is required to do what's in the best financial interests of their shareholders. If Apple doubles the wages paid to its employees, and that leads to reduced profits, which reduces the earnings per share, everyone who owns Apple stock has the legal right to sue Apple for breach of fiduciary duty. Even if the majority of shareholders voted in favor of increasing the workers' wages, the minority who opposed it could still sue. In either case, the shareholders might not win the lawsuit, but it's a significant legal risk to Apple, just to "be nice". They can only safely raise wages to the extent it's economically necessary (to obtain and retain workers, for example).

Corporations do not have a legal fiduciary duty to their employees ... or to the environment, or to the communities they operate in. They just have a fiduciary duty to the shareholders. It's a flawed law. But it is the law.


Rival,
You started off by asking why we teach kids to be good. I would like to revise my answer.

We teach kids the difference between good and evil, so that by the time they reach adulthood, they will be able to differentiate between a company that is obeying the laws of the land, and a company that is actually engaging in actions that are evil.
Keep spewing your capitalist bs :)
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Apple's Chinese employees are allowed to quit their jobs. They can go search for a better opportunity. Slaves do not receive the same benefit.

Slaves can always run away, or revolt, or kill their masters - or even kill themselves. Everyone has choices. No one is truly forced to do anything.
 

Karl R

Active Member
Stevicus,
Are you trying to draw some equivalency between working for low pay and slavery?

Back in 1990, I spent a few months working for a company that paid less than minimum wage. (They classified me as an independent contractor working purely for commission, which is how they could get away with it.) The job ended up paying less than those Chinese workers earn.

By the end of that time, I was completely broke. It was during a recession, so I didn't even have much hope for finding another job quickly. (And it took me a couple months before I found another job.)

It's not the same as slavery. It's not even similar. I could quit. (And I did quit.) I didn't have to commit violence. I didn't have to worry about retaliation.


That company deliberately misled people that it was trying to hire (which is how I ended up working for them). I find that kind of deception to be unethical. But it's not even close to slavery.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Slaves can always run away, or revolt, or kill their masters - or even kill themselves. Everyone has choices. No one is truly forced to do anything.
Real slaves face more compelling choices.
Runaway slaves can be recaptured & horribly punished.
Employees who quit might at the worst endure a non-compete agreement.
Sure, sure, both have choices.
But the differences are significant.
This is why the term, "wage slave", is dishonest.
 

Karl R

Active Member
According to the article, "the public is subsidising Next to the tune of £67m a year."
As far as I can tell, Patrick Collinson (the author) used "the public" as a synonym for "taxpayers."
Next pays £127m to £169m in taxes per year.
So approximately half of Next's taxes subsidize Next's employees.

Facts are fun. Especially in context.
(I also noticed that the Patrick Collinson listed Next's pre-tax profits, rather than the post tax profits.)
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Stevicus,
Are you trying to draw some equivalency between working for low pay and slavery?

Not really. Just pointing out that the individual has choices in both situations.

Real slaves face more compelling choices.
Runaway slaves can be recaptured & horribly punished.
Employees who quit might at the worst endure a non-compete agreement.
Sure, sure, both have choices.
But the differences are significant.
This is why the term, "wage slave", is dishonest.

It depends on how literal you want to be. I don't think most people mean it literally, nor is it meant to be interpreted literally. But it comes pretty close. If a company is so cheap as to pay such low wages that workers have to use up all or most of their disposable income on basic sustenance, then it's about as close to slavery as one can legally get in a country where slavery is outlawed.

Employees who quit might endure a lot worse, such as starvation, homelessness, or other such life-threatening situations. So, yes, technically there are "differences," but in practice, the consequences are pretty severe either way, no matter how you slice it.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The Garden story. What you described is what Adam and Eve did - disobeyed authority and tested the limits. They and all of their descendents were punished for that.
I didn't describe anything about Adam and Eve. Nor have I read anything their descendants being "punished in the extreme" for Adam's and Eve's bad behavior.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It depends on how literal you want to be. I don't think most people mean it literally, nor is it meant to be interpreted literally. But it comes pretty close. If a company is so cheap as to pay such low wages that workers have to use up all or most of their disposable income on basic sustenance, then it's about as close to slavery as one can legally get in a country where slavery is outlawed.
You're not describing slavery....just that employment is a compelling choice, even if its unsatisfying.
Employees who quit might endure a lot worse, such as starvation, homelessness, or other such life-threatening situations. So, yes, technically there are "differences," but in practice, the consequences are pretty severe either way, no matter how you slice it.
Technical differences?
Who in Americastan suffers to the extent that antebellum deep south slaves did?
Slaves were bought, sold, owned, beaten, whipped & were no better than mules.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You're not describing slavery....just that employment is a compelling choice, even if its unsatisfying.

Technical differences?
Who in Americastan suffers to the extent that antebellum deep south slaves did?
Slaves were bought, sold, owned, beaten, whipped & were no better than mules.

Well, we've changed a lot since then, but back when slavery was active in the South, there were also egregious methods used by industrialists in the North with so-called "free" labor.

But on the other hand, there are different forms of slavery. Just like in Americastan (gee, now you got me saying it), if a slave in Ancient Rome worked hard enough and persevered enough, they too might get their freedom, such as some gladiators got. Cicero's slave was granted freedom and became a writer. Even slaves in the South sometimes got their freedom through manumission. All they have to do is work hard and kiss butt, and they too could become millionaires - just like all the informercials tell us.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Well, we've changed a lot since then, but back when slavery was active in the South, there were also egregious methods used by industrialists in the North with so-called "free" labor.

But on the other hand, there are different forms of slavery. Just like in Americastan (gee, now you got me saying it), if a slave in Ancient Rome worked hard enough and persevered enough, they too might get their freedom, such as some gladiators got. Cicero's slave was granted freedom and became a writer. Even slaves in the South sometimes got their freedom through manumission. All they have to do is work hard and kiss butt, and they too could become millionaires - just like all the informercials tell us.
A key thing about slavery is that one is property of an owner.
This singular facet causes other big differences.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
A key thing about slavery is that one is property of an owner.
This singular facet causes other big differences.

That's only just a state of mind. In the final analysis, it still turns out basically the same - people working long hours while being given just enough to survive.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
That's only just a state of mind. In the final analysis, it still turns out basically the same - people working long hours while being given just enough to survive.
Everything involving humans is a state of mind, & yet very real.
The slave owner & slave relation is a particularly nasty one.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Everything involving humans is a state of mind, & yet very real.
The slave owner & slave relation is a particularly nasty one.

Indeed it is a nasty one, but it has often been true that the employer and employee relationship can often be nasty, too. It may be slightly better by degree, but even then, that was gained only through labor rebellion and strife, along with union organizing and governmental intervention - things that the business community tends to oppose.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That's only just a state of mind. In the final analysis, it still turns out basically the same - people working long hours while being given just enough to survive.

Don't forget the parts about holding them captive against their wills, stealing their labor, dehumanizing them, selling their children, and beating them ad lib. I'd take a minimum wage job before that every day. Wouldn't you?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Don't forget the parts about holding them captive against their wills, stealing their labor, dehumanizing them, selling their children, and beating them ad lib. I'd take a minimum wage job before that every day. Wouldn't you?

What year are we talking about here? "Free" labor also entails child labor, company stores, strike breaking, stealing labor, dehumanizing people, and also beating them ad lib. The only part that's really different is being captive against their wills, but a lot of slaves ran away. The option to "quit" is always there, either way.
 
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