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Why Do We Teach Kids To Be Good?

Rival

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Karl R said:
Rival,
You don't seem to understand the fundamentals of economics. If you want to improve the pay of Chinese workers (or people in any western nation), educate them, so they can do better paying jobs. I get paid relatively high amounts of money because there are few people who can do my job. (Just ask the headhunters who keep trying to recruit me.) You could offer me 20 times what those Apple factory workers get, and I would refuse to do their job. I like my job better, the workload is easier, and the pay is better.

And if you want to attack unethical behavior toward the poor, start with the politicians who are cutting funding for public education.
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Uh, a person's level of education isn't any induction of how much that person should earn. It's how well that person does the job and so-on.

What my complaint is that Apple products don't cost nearly as much to make as Apple sells them for. The amount of profit Apple makes is disgusting compared to how much it pays the people who actually makes its products. Apple is not paying those workers even half the minimum wage. That is essentially robbing the workers of fair pay. Chinese workers suicide because of this.
 
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Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Nous said:
What needs to be explained about the instruction: "Treat others like you want to be treated"? Children understand what the sentence means.

Here's a dictionary: Dictionary.com - The world’s favorite online dictionary!

Look up the meanings of the words.
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I'm not the one having a problem. This is what you said.

"I don't know how to explain the Golden Rule more clearly than the words already explain what it means."

If you can't explain something in your own words, then I have to question whether or not you actually understand it.

Sorry if you can't get past that, and I'm taking your word for it, I think we're done.
 
YmirGF

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Rival said:
Title seems a bit silly huh? Obviously we should. Or...wait...

All their young lives our children are taught to be honest, to be fair, to be moderate and kind. These along with a whole host of other moral virtues that our society says it values.

Until they grow up.

The world is a harsh, cruel place where it's first come first serve, you have to be ruthless, to lie, to cheat and do anything to get that job. It's tough out there you know (implying that everyone else is a soulless b*stard).

So really, our society doesn't value these morals so much. If at all. I'd go so far as to say it doesn't at all. I mean can you imagine if hiring employees was an ethical practice? If buying and selling were ethical? If adverts were honest about products? Then we'd value moral virtue.

The mantra seems to be 'Be moral...when it suits you.'

So what gives? Why bother teaching kids to be good at all? It's not like we value it.
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If you can imagine it, I was a difficult child. No, seriously. I was hyper-inquisitive and now shudder at the thought if a personality type like mine was given free reign. By the age of 10 I already knew I was smarter than my parents. Their life experience, which eclipsed mine, was all the saved them many times, LOL. I was continually pushing my boundaries and that often got me into trouble on a daily basis. I was like a little mad scientist continually doing behavioral studies, pushing buttons, just to see the effect.

That said, I was basically a pretty good kid, and managed to get to adulthood without running afoul of the law, did well in school and I credit my parents for not beating me to a pulp but still managing to keep me hosed down and attending to regular clipping of my wings. Sincerely, you don't want to raise a personality type like mine without strict boundaries in force. The consequences would likely have been horrific.
 
It Aint Necessarily So

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
YmirGF said:
I was continually pushing my boundaries and that often got me into trouble on a daily basis. I was like a little mad scientist continually doing behavioral studies, pushing buttons, just to see the effect.
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As you well know, in Christian theology, not just you, but all of your descendants would be punished in the extreme for such behavior - behavior that every parent is not only aware is typical of children, but within limits, should approve of if not outright encourage.

Let the kid make mistakes that aren't lethal, scarring, or excessively traumatizing. Give him or her ever more latitude as (s)he begins to learn good values and habits.

I was like you, whereas my sister, by contrast, was obedient and a little timid. That cost her once she left home. She was less prepared for the pitfalls she woudd encounter, and made mistake at 25 that I made at 16. They were far costlier for her.
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Rival said:
Uh, a person's level of education isn't any induction of how much that person should earn. It's how well that person does the job and so-on.

What my complaint is that Apple products don't cost nearly as much to make as Apple sells them for. The amount of profit Apple makes is disgusting compared to how much it pays the people who actually makes its products. Apple is not paying those workers even half the minimum wage. That is essentially robbing the workers of fair pay. Chinese workers suicide because of this.
Click to expand...

Is China a capitalist economy? Apparently it is. This means it's up to the worker to decide how much they work for. Maybe because they were Communist prior, no one taught them how capitalism works?
 
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Karl R

Karl R

Active Member
Rival said:
Uh, a person's level of education isn't any induction of how much that person should earn. It's how well that person does the job and so-on.
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That's a very idealistic statement ... and it bears no resemblance to reality.

Almost everyone in the world is capable of picking vegetables. Therefore, the job pays poorly. Even the people who are the best at picking vegetables still get paid poorly. In fact, if you take that exceptional vegetable picker and give him the education and training to become a mediocre commercial truck driver, he'll earn more driving trucks.

It's just a variation on supply and demand. The higher the demand for a particular type of worker, and the smaller the pool of people who have the talent and education to fill that role, the higher the job will pay. The actual necessity for the job is almost irrelevant. People need vegetables more than they need baseball, but major league ballplayers consistently out-earn vegetable pickers.

Rival said:
Apple is not paying those workers even half the minimum wage. That is essentially robbing the workers of fair pay.
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So let's say that Apple decided to double the hourly pay of its workers. At that point, there's really no reason to keep the factory in China. Apple could fire its one million Chinese workers, move the plant to Mexico, and hire one million Mexicans. This would have the added benefit of moving the factory closer to its headquarters, and to its primary markets.

Would this benefit the Chinese workers?

This isn't just a hypothetical scenario. When clothing companies came under scrutiny for the conditions at their Bangladeshi sweatshops (after the publicized building collapse), they closed all their Bangladeshi facilities. The workers went from being poorly paid to being completely unemployed.

Similarly, when we force companies to stop using child labor, we do it with the expectation that they'll end up going to school and getting an education. The sad, messy reality is that those kids end up scavenging in refuse heaps, begging on the streets, or resorting to prostitution to survive.

Rival said:
Chinese workers suicide because of this.
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China's suicide rate is 22.23 people per year out of every 100,000 people. Apple made news because 17 of its one million employees committed suicide over a five year period.

If all of the suicides had taken place in one year, and an 200 additional employees had committed suicide, then Apple would have almost been keeping up with the rest of the country. Apple's employee suicide rate is about half that of U.S. college students. But don't feel obliged to let facts cloud your self-righteous indignation. If you're convinced that Apple is evil, then that is your subjective reality.
 
Rival

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Karl R said:
That's a very idealistic statement ... and it bears no resemblance to reality.

Almost everyone in the world is capable of picking vegetables. Therefore, the job pays poorly. Even the people who are the best at picking vegetables still get paid poorly. In fact, if you take that exceptional vegetable picker and give him the education and training to become a mediocre commercial truck driver, he'll earn more driving trucks.

It's just a variation on supply and demand. The higher the demand for a particular type of worker, and the smaller the pool of people who have the talent and education to fill that role, the higher the job will pay. The actual necessity for the job is almost irrelevant. People need vegetables more than they need baseball, but major league ballplayers consistently out-earn vegetable pickers.


So let's say that Apple decided to double the hourly pay of its workers. At that point, there's really no reason to keep the factory in China. Apple could fire its one million Chinese workers, move the plant to Mexico, and hire one million Mexicans. This would have the added benefit of moving the factory closer to its headquarters, and to its primary markets.

Would this benefit the Chinese workers?

This isn't just a hypothetical scenario. When clothing companies came under scrutiny for the conditions at their Bangladeshi sweatshops (after the publicized building collapse), they closed all their Bangladeshi facilities. The workers went from being poorly paid to being completely unemployed.

Similarly, when we force companies to stop using child labor, we do it with the expectation that they'll end up going to school and getting an education. The sad, messy reality is that those kids end up scavenging in refuse heaps, begging on the streets, or resorting to prostitution to survive.


China's suicide rate is 22.23 people per year out of every 100,000 people. Apple made news because 17 of its one million employees committed suicide over a five year period.

If all of the suicides had taken place in one year, and an 200 additional employees had committed suicide, then Apple would have almost been keeping up with the rest of the country. Apple's employee suicide rate is about half that of U.S. college students. But don't feel obliged to let facts cloud your self-righteous indignation. If you're convinced that Apple is evil, then that is your subjective reality.
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So in other words you basically support slave labour because 'at least it's a job'? No, that's still not very good for anyone.'You can either be paid below minimum wage or have no job at all' is not really a choice.
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Karl R said:
They're paid approximately $1.50 per hour. The average factory worker in China earns $0.50 to $3.00 per hour. Generally speaking, the higher end will correspond to higher skill work or more dangerous work. (Massive hydraulic presses are dangerous. Circuit boards aren't.) Are you blaming Apple for the wages in the entire country of China? They employ less than 0.1% of the working population.
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Seems the word is getting out among the Chinese.
The average Chinese private-sector worker earns about the same as a cleaner in Thailand
 
Karl R

Karl R

Active Member
Rival said:
So in other words you basically support slave labour because 'at least it's a job'?
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Are you resorting to ad hominem attacks just because you're unable to defend your views with facts?

Apple's Chinese employees are allowed to quit their jobs. They can go search for a better opportunity. Slaves do not receive the same benefit.

There are 30 million people worldwide who are slaves, forced to be laborers, prostitutes, or child soldiers. They can't quit. Instead of making noise about that, you're attacking companies that are offering jobs at wages comparable to the rest of the country they operate in.

Rival said:
No, that's still not very good for anyone.'You can either be paid below minimum wage or have no job at all' is not really a choice.
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By global standards, U.S. minimum wage is considered "upper-middle income" (living on $20-$50 per day).
Apple's Chinese employees are "middle income" (living on $10-$20 per day).
56% of the global population is "low income" (living on $2-$10 per day).
15% of the global population is "poor" (living on $0-$2 per day).

Approximately 91% of the global population works for wages below U.S. minimum wage, just so they have a job. Compared to Haiti's bayakou (who earn $4 per day while standing naked in human excrement), the Apple employees appear to have a dream job.

You don't even understand why Apple doesn't simply double the factory workers' wages.
Instead of being outraged at employers, why don't you spend a few minutes learning why things are this way?

By law, corporations owe a fiduciary duty to their shareholders. Apple is required to do what's in the best financial interests of their shareholders. If Apple doubles the wages paid to its employees, and that leads to reduced profits, which reduces the earnings per share, everyone who owns Apple stock has the legal right to sue Apple for breach of fiduciary duty. Even if the majority of shareholders voted in favor of increasing the workers' wages, the minority who opposed it could still sue. In either case, the shareholders might not win the lawsuit, but it's a significant legal risk to Apple, just to "be nice". They can only safely raise wages to the extent it's economically necessary (to obtain and retain workers, for example).

Corporations do not have a legal fiduciary duty to their employees ... or to the environment, or to the communities they operate in. They just have a fiduciary duty to the shareholders. It's a flawed law. But it is the law.


Rival,
You started off by asking why we teach kids to be good. I would like to revise my answer.

We teach kids the difference between good and evil, so that by the time they reach adulthood, they will be able to differentiate between a company that is obeying the laws of the land, and a company that is actually engaging in actions that are evil.
 
C

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Karl R said:
pple's Chinese employees are allowed to quit their jobs. They can go search for a better opportunity.
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images.jpg

Tom
 
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