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All Dogs Go to Heaven

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Actually there are multiple places in Tanakh which tell us this, as well as books and articles about their First-born Sacrifice.

I will add that those several verses discuss the different types of sacrifice, including The firstborn sacrifice. They don't change at the human sacrifice.

Mic 6:6 Wherewith shall I come before YHVH, and bow myself before the high Elohiym? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?

Mic 6:7 Will YHVH be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body a sin-offering/sacrifice for my soul?

These were all offerings.

Most Tanakh verses concerning such show us the changeover to animal only.

Such as the Abraham and Isaac story - where the child-sacrifice is traded for an animal.

*
When the Israelites turned to Baal and child sacrifices, they displeased God immensely.

2 Kings 16:3 3 And he went walking in the way of the kings of Israel, and even his own son he made pass through the fire, according to the detestable things of the nations whom Jehovah drove out because of the sons of Israel.​
But, you believe as you like, everybody else does.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Ecc 3:19For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Another translation says "who knows whether....the spirit of the beast goes down...."

It is not specifically stated whether any animals will be resurrected -but God is certainly able, as he is able to resurrect men.
I suppose as long as there is some record of the state of any animal it could be resurrected -though resurrecting such things as flies might be less desired than pups or kitties.
:oops:
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
If you'd like, I'll repost the entire conversation where you contradicted yourself...











Better?

And since you chose to edit your post after I posted my reply, I'll address that portion as well...

I didn't post any claims about human divinity under the guise of Universal Truth. Therefore, there is no burden on me to present empirical evidence, as I was not claiming anything to be your truth. You, however, posted a claim that humans are not divine and when asked for elaboration, presented it as a Universal Truth. See the difference?

I am a scholar, so I am familiar with the scientific method. I don't find scholarly studies supporting the proposition that human behavior is determined. Evidence suggests a broad spectrum of human behavior which rejects determinism. Post social science studies supporting determinism.

Your claim I said this or that to contradict something I said is nonsense and also a useless exercise. The topic is the divine nature of humans. I ask for evidence for that claim, and I get no evidence. I present a reasonable explanation of the lack of divinity based on history and I get no reply. It appears as if I have won the debate.
 
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Repox

Truth Seeker
Is it human arrogance to think humans are divine, or is it the loud thunder from bully pulpits which persuades us of our divinity? Regardless, the historical record certainly is against the idea of human divinity. We have ceaseless warfare, killing of millions of people for one cause or another, high crime rates, mob violence, the continual need for boarder security, etc. Where is the evidence for human divinity?
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
When the Israelites turned to Baal and child sacrifices, they displeased God immensely.

2 Kings 16:3 3 And he went walking in the way of the kings of Israel, and even his own son he made pass through the fire, according to the detestable things of the nations whom Jehovah drove out because of the sons of Israel.​
But, you believe as you like, everybody else does.

It is true that they practiced child sacrifice .

Eze 20:25 Wherefore - I (YHVH) - gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

Eze 20:26 And - I - polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.

Exodus 22: 29 –Thou shalt not delay TO OFFER the FIRST of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: THE FIRSTBORN OF THY SONS SHALT THOU GIVE UNTO ME.

Leviticus 27: 28, 29 Notwithstanding NO devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the Lord of all that he hath, BOTH OF MAN and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the Lord.

29 – None devoted, which shall be devoted of men shall be redeemed; BUT SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH.

"... Traces of human sacrifices abound in the Biblical records. The command to Abraham (Gen. xxii.) and the subsequent development of the story indicate that the substitution of animal for human victims was traced to patriarchal example. The Ban ("ḥerem") preserves a certain form of the primitive human sacrifice (Schwally, "Kriegsaltertümer"). The first-born naturally belonged to the deity. Originally he was not ransomed, but immolated;... " http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12984-sacrifice


" ...The custom of causing one's children to pass through the fire seems to have been general in the Northern Kingdom [IV (II) Kings, xvii, 17; Ezech. xxiii, 37], and it gradually grew in the Southern, encouraged by the royal example of Achaz (IV Kings, xvi, 3) and Manasses [IV (II) Kings, xvi, 6] till it became prevalent in the time of the prophet Jeremias (Jerem. xxxii, 35), when King Josias suppressed the worship of Moloch and defiled Tophet [IV (II) Kings, xxiii, 13 (10)]. It is not improbable that this worship was revived under Joakim and continued until the Babylonian Captivity … "

" In other words, the Melech to whom child-sacrifices were offered was Yahweh under another name. To uphold this view appeal is made in particular to Jer., vii, 31; xix, 5, and to Ezech., xx, 25-31."- Catholic Encyclopedia

This was interesting - "Moloch (Masoretic מֹלֶךְ mōlek, Greek Μολώχ) is the Biblical name of a Canaanite god or possibly an ancient form of propitiatory child sacrifice by parents as sacrifice for the deity."

"In 1841, both Georg Friedrich Daumer and Friedrich Wilhelm Ghillany published influential works on the topic.[18] These authors came to the conclusion that the Biblical text reflect an original identity of Molek and Yahweh, and that the cult of Yahweh grew out of that of Molek by the abolishing of human sacrifice. The authors find numerous instances of vestigial references to human sacrifice, most notably the law that all firstborns must be "consecrated" or "given" to Yahweh (Exodus 13:2, 22:28)." Moloch - Wikipedia

That last is interesting because there are a couple of Tanakh verses that say they knew YHVH by other names.

Exo 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by God Almighty, but by my name YHVH was I not known to them.

And of course Abraham goes to sacrifice Isaac on an alter of fire. (Genesis 22)

And a book -

The Death and Resurrection of the Beloved Son - The Transformation of Child Sacrifice in Judaism and Christianity - Jon D. Levenson, Albert A. List Professor of Jewish Studies at the Divinity School and the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations, Harvard University.

I've said before, - I think these verses show a change from child-sacrifice.

And we have had several discussions here about the Hebrew actually being Nomadic Canaanites - from whence comes the child-sacrifice.

*
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
It is true that they practiced child sacrifice .

Eze 20:25 Wherefore - I (YHVH) - gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

Eze 20:26 And - I - polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.

Exodus 22: 29 –Thou shalt not delay TO OFFER the FIRST of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: THE FIRSTBORN OF THY SONS SHALT THOU GIVE UNTO ME.

Leviticus 27: 28, 29 Notwithstanding NO devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the Lord of all that he hath, BOTH OF MAN and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the Lord.

29 – None devoted, which shall be devoted of men shall be redeemed; BUT SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH.

"... Traces of human sacrifices abound in the Biblical records. The command to Abraham (Gen. xxii.) and the subsequent development of the story indicate that the substitution of animal for human victims was traced to patriarchal example. The Ban ("ḥerem") preserves a certain form of the primitive human sacrifice (Schwally, "Kriegsaltertümer"). The first-born naturally belonged to the deity. Originally he was not ransomed, but immolated;... " http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12984-sacrifice


" ...The custom of causing one's children to pass through the fire seems to have been general in the Northern Kingdom [IV (II) Kings, xvii, 17; Ezech. xxiii, 37], and it gradually grew in the Southern, encouraged by the royal example of Achaz (IV Kings, xvi, 3) and Manasses [IV (II) Kings, xvi, 6] till it became prevalent in the time of the prophet Jeremias (Jerem. xxxii, 35), when King Josias suppressed the worship of Moloch and defiled Tophet [IV (II) Kings, xxiii, 13 (10)]. It is not improbable that this worship was revived under Joakim and continued until the Babylonian Captivity … "

" In other words, the Melech to whom child-sacrifices were offered was Yahweh under another name. To uphold this view appeal is made in particular to Jer., vii, 31; xix, 5, and to Ezech., xx, 25-31."- Catholic Encyclopedia

This was interesting - "Moloch (Masoretic מֹלֶךְ mōlek, Greek Μολώχ) is the Biblical name of a Canaanite god or possibly an ancient form of propitiatory child sacrifice by parents as sacrifice for the deity."

"In 1841, both Georg Friedrich Daumer and Friedrich Wilhelm Ghillany published influential works on the topic.[18] These authors came to the conclusion that the Biblical text reflect an original identity of Molek and Yahweh, and that the cult of Yahweh grew out of that of Molek by the abolishing of human sacrifice. The authors find numerous instances of vestigial references to human sacrifice, most notably the law that all firstborns must be "consecrated" or "given" to Yahweh (Exodus 13:2, 22:28)." Moloch - Wikipedia

That last is interesting because there are a couple of Tanakh verses that say they knew YHVH by other names.

Exo 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by God Almighty, but by my name YHVH was I not known to them.

And of course Abraham goes to sacrifice Isaac on an alter of fire. (Genesis 22)

And a book -

The Death and Resurrection of the Beloved Son - The Transformation of Child Sacrifice in Judaism and Christianity - Jon D. Levenson, Albert A. List Professor of Jewish Studies at the Divinity School and the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations, Harvard University.

I've said before, - I think these verses show a change from child-sacrifice.

And we have had several discussions here about the Hebrew actually being Nomadic Canaanites - from whence comes the child-sacrifice.

*
You make some serious claims with scriptures attached. This will take me quite a while to go through. I am going to put a bookmark on your answer so that I can find it again in a few days so as to try to answer. Seems like you have made this a mission of yours.

Just sitting and looking at some of the scriptures, and already I have an idea of what is going on.
But, you know, I recently had an exhausting exchange with a flat-earther, and he flatly denied all proof as he was wont to; I also had an exchange with another one whom I presented on several points fine scriptural proof for some point, again flatly denied. One would have thought them in collusion.

Now, with you, I have the same sneaky feeling that no matter what I say, you will hold on to your guns. But, I will look however I fear it is waste of my time. I think you are another flat-earther at heart regarding evidence. Are you?
 
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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
You make some serious claims with scriptures attached. This will take me quite a while to go through. I am going to put a bookmark on your answer so that I can find it again in a few days so as to try to answer. Seems like you have made this a mission of yours. I have never heard this claim before.

Not my mission. You are new, so you haven't read my spiel. :)

I studied archaeology, took Comparative religion, and was raised Christian. I have actually studied the Bible, and my studies of the Bible led me away from it.

I'm interested in ancient cultures, their movements, religion and philosophy, and language, and how they interacted and spread, leading to todays cultures and religions.

*
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Not my mission. You are new, so you haven't read my spiel. :)

I studied archaeology, took Comparative religion, and was raised Christian. I have actually studied the Bible, and my studies of the Bible led me away from it.

I'm interested in ancient cultures, their movements, religion and philosophy, and language, and how they interacted and spread, leading to todays cultures and religions.

*
I just edited that post, please look again.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
I am a scholar, so I am familiar with the scientific method. I don't find scholarly studies supporting the proposition that human behavior is determined. Evidence suggests a broad spectrum of human behavior which rejects determinism. Post social science studies supporting determinism.

Your claim I said this or that to contradict something I said is nonsense and also a useless exercise. The topic is the divine nature of humans. I ask for evidence for that claim, and I get no evidence. I present a reasonable explanation of the lack of divinity based on history and I get no reply. It appears as if I have won the debate.

*smiles* Your may be a scholar, but a debater you are not. Logical fallacies, in this case, shifting the burden of proof, do not win debates.

First, you fail to supply any evidence to your claim of a Universal Truth. Then you shift the burden to me to support a claim that I never once made ITT. The closest I even remotely came to what could even be considered a claim of human divinity was making reference to a Christian axiom in the OP. Whatever conclusion you arrived at based on that was pure assumption on your part.

Look, your made a claim appearing to be presented as a Universal Truth. I even went as far ITT as to open a door for you to amend that presentation to a relative truth. You chose not to walk though that door and continue down the corridor of arrogance and ego, then when called out, contradicted yourself. If that wasn't bad enough, then you completly denied doing so.

But yeah, go ahead and claim victory based on that if you need that kind of an ego stroke.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
I am a scholar, so I am familiar with the scientific method. I don't find scholarly studies supporting the proposition that human behavior is determined. Evidence suggests a broad spectrum of human behavior which rejects determinism. Post social science studies supporting determinism.

Your claim I said this or that to contradict something I said is nonsense and also a useless exercise. The topic is the divine nature of humans. I ask for evidence for that claim, and I get no evidence. I present a reasonable explanation of the lack of divinity based on history and I get no reply. It appears as if I have won the debate.

humans aren't any more/less divine than any other sentient form. don't confuse the form with the function. the consciousness' adaptation to an environment creates a temporal form.

consciousness

Center for Consciousness Studies . Tucson . Arizona

Haraldsson

Division of Perceptual Studies – University of Virginia School of Medicine

The Lancet: Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest

Near-death experiences in non-life-threatening events and coma of different etiologies
 
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Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
It is true that they practiced child sacrifice .

Eze 20:25 Wherefore - I (YHVH) - gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

Eze 20:26 And - I - polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.

Exodus 22: 29 –Thou shalt not delay TO OFFER the FIRST of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: THE FIRSTBORN OF THY SONS SHALT THOU GIVE UNTO ME.

Leviticus 27: 28, 29 Notwithstanding NO devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the Lord of all that he hath, BOTH OF MAN and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the Lord.

29 – None devoted, which shall be devoted of men shall be redeemed; BUT SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH.

"... Traces of human sacrifices abound in the Biblical records. The command to Abraham (Gen. xxii.) and the subsequent development of the story indicate that the substitution of animal for human victims was traced to patriarchal example. The Ban ("ḥerem") preserves a certain form of the primitive human sacrifice (Schwally, "Kriegsaltertümer"). The first-born naturally belonged to the deity. Originally he was not ransomed, but immolated;... " http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12984-sacrifice


" ...The custom of causing one's children to pass through the fire seems to have been general in the Northern Kingdom [IV (II) Kings, xvii, 17; Ezech. xxiii, 37], and it gradually grew in the Southern, encouraged by the royal example of Achaz (IV Kings, xvi, 3) and Manasses [IV (II) Kings, xvi, 6] till it became prevalent in the time of the prophet Jeremias (Jerem. xxxii, 35), when King Josias suppressed the worship of Moloch and defiled Tophet [IV (II) Kings, xxiii, 13 (10)]. It is not improbable that this worship was revived under Joakim and continued until the Babylonian Captivity … "

" In other words, the Melech to whom child-sacrifices were offered was Yahweh under another name. To uphold this view appeal is made in particular to Jer., vii, 31; xix, 5, and to Ezech., xx, 25-31."- Catholic Encyclopedia

This was interesting - "Moloch (Masoretic מֹלֶךְ mōlek, Greek Μολώχ) is the Biblical name of a Canaanite god or possibly an ancient form of propitiatory child sacrifice by parents as sacrifice for the deity."

"In 1841, both Georg Friedrich Daumer and Friedrich Wilhelm Ghillany published influential works on the topic.[18] These authors came to the conclusion that the Biblical text reflect an original identity of Molek and Yahweh, and that the cult of Yahweh grew out of that of Molek by the abolishing of human sacrifice. The authors find numerous instances of vestigial references to human sacrifice, most notably the law that all firstborns must be "consecrated" or "given" to Yahweh (Exodus 13:2, 22:28)." Moloch - Wikipedia

That last is interesting because there are a couple of Tanakh verses that say they knew YHVH by other names.

Exo 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by God Almighty, but by my name YHVH was I not known to them.

And of course Abraham goes to sacrifice Isaac on an alter of fire. (Genesis 22)

And a book -

The Death and Resurrection of the Beloved Son - The Transformation of Child Sacrifice in Judaism and Christianity - Jon D. Levenson, Albert A. List Professor of Jewish Studies at the Divinity School and the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations, Harvard University.

I've said before, - I think these verses show a change from child-sacrifice.

And we have had several discussions here about the Hebrew actually being Nomadic Canaanites - from whence comes the child-sacrifice.

*
I wrote a file in response to your material, the link is included here.
Link: Ingledsva
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
When the Israelites turned to Baal and child sacrifices, they displeased God immensely.

2 Kings 16:3 3 And he went walking in the way of the kings of Israel, and even his own son he made pass through the fire, according to the detestable things of the nations whom Jehovah drove out because of the sons of Israel.​
But, you believe as you like, everybody else does.

It's no use, her mind has been blinded to the truth.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Those of you that thought that I wanted entertain a debate about the Disney movie are probably going to be disappointed. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble.


I've referenced a couple of times on this forum the principle reason for my departure from Catholicism and ultimately Christianity. But for the purpose of this thread, I'll reiterate it here:

When I was a wee lad, I attended CCD. During one of the classes, we were discussing what happens to people when they die. When the nun discussed the concept of Heaven, she only mentioned people. I had a nagging question on my mind so I raised my hand. When called upon, I asked, "Do animals go to Heaven, too?"

Mind you I've felt a connection with animals and nature from a very young age. Imagine my dismay with I was met with the response, "No, only people go to heaven. Animals do not have souls." Ultimately I argued my viewpoint, but was promptly shut down.

This drove a wedge between me and Catholicism, and thus began my journey seeking paths that accepted what I knew deep down to be true.


So here is my question:

What does your religion teach you about those beings other than humans and the afterlife? Do you accept these teachings, or feel they're not quite right but you follow them anyway because it is a part of your belief structure?

Let's start with:

Nuns teach some very odd things not found in the Holy Bible.

The Holy Bible teaches that higher animals (mammals, etc.) have souls! Google, learn... embrace God who gave Jesus to reconcile all, including lovely animals!
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Heaven is for God only. The Bible does NOT teach that people or animals go to heaven. Animals and people both die and return to the earth, Animals do not have spirits but people do have spirits. God will raise these spirits and they will live in God's kingdom on earth, not in heaven. That is what the Bible teaches and true Christians believe. Soryy the Catholic church does not teach this truth, You are better off without them.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Heaven is for God only. The Bible does NOT teach that people or animals go to heaven. Animals and people both die and return to the earth, Animals do not have spirits but people do have spirits. God will raise these spirits and they will live in God's kingdom on earth, not in heaven. That is what the Bible teaches and true Christians believe. Soryy the Catholic church does not teach this truth, You are better off without them.

You're a JW or former JW, correct?
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
The notion that one particular breed of ape is special enough to deserve the recognition of a cosmic intelligence strikes me as an odd view. To couple that with the specific exclusion of other animals is even weirder.

Suffice it to say, if heaven exists and my dogs aren't welcome, I'll pass on the afterlife. That place wouldn't be heaven to me.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Okay, that's all good, but she will just blast you with more hatred. I've been there and done that but to each his own.
Their reaction to the Word is what judges them.

*[[Joh 12:48]] ASV* He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my sayings, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
What does "temporal form has nothing to ith my the proposed divinity of humans, which is the topic I brought up
I hate it when I get a lecture about something having nothing to do with the topic. The subject is divinity of humans. If humans are divine it is not temporal. There is no evidence for divinity of humans. So, subject closed.
 
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