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How are these Great Beings explained?

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
@Vinayaka I had to tell you this. It's related but I didn't want it to be debated. So I started reading again In The Buddha's Words that has many suttas from the Pali Canon. Anyway, Bahai says that The Buddha points to god.

I'm not a philosophical person, Carlita. All I know about Buddhism is from going to one or two of their sacred places, meeting monks here and there, and the peace I've felt at such places and from people. My Hindu sampradaya held a weekend retreat at a Buddhist retreat center in California. Thai Buddhists in Hawaii keep a picture of my Guru in the restaurant they run. So this mutual respect thing runs incredibly deep.

I can listen to the Dalai Lama speaking gently, but cringe at Abrahamic screamers telling me stuff I have no clue about.

I've heard the deepest mystic level described by both sides as a void, with the Hindus also calling it the ultimate Cause.

The Bahais are different.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
In the end I went another way with this. This is because I like that the Jehovah Witnesses have done a lot of good research on this subject and have given quite a reasonable explanation on this subject.

I thought, why not let other dedicated Christians answer this question for you? It shows the explanations given by Baha'u'llah can permeate the mind of others. Given the way the Jehovah Witnesses also sprung from the 1844 date of the Return of Christ, I can offer no better but form a Christian source. It is not fully in tune with Baha'i thought, but it shows that one can be a Christian and get another meaning from the same scriptures. As Baha'u'llah also offers, a different Frame of reference.

Jesus’ Body—Was It Flesh or Spirit After His Resurrection? | Bible Questions

I have had many a chat with friends from the JW Movement, I say to them with their Interpretation we are so close, yet so far still :) My friend here in Normanton so wants me to embrace JW, so I can join them in the life to come.

Consider they are very Literal in their Interpretation of many aspects of the Bible, but in this matter have gone with the Spiritual.

Regards Tony
"fleshly bodies that he materialized"? What's the point? He had an earthly body that died and rotted away? But then he "materialized" other fleshly bodies? You really agree with their explanation?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
From memory I am not going to find specifics on what you asked, it was reference to this talk that I offered before, but I think you have most likely read it;

"THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST

Question. -- What is the meaning of Christ's resurrection after three days?

Answer. -- The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. All Their states, Their conditions, Their acts, the things They have established, Their teachings, Their expressions, Their parables and Their instructions have a spiritual and divine signification, and have no connection with material things. For example, there is the subject of Christ's coming from heaven: it is clearly stated in many places in the Gospel that the Son of man came from heaven, He is in heaven, and He will go to heaven. So in chapter 6, verse 38, of the Gospel of John it is written: "For I came down from heaven"; and also in verse 42 we find: "And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?" Also in John, chapter 3, verse 13: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
Observe that it is said, "The Son of man is in heaven," while at that time Christ was on earth. Notice also that it is said that Christ came from heaven, though He came from the womb of Mary, and His body was born of Mary. It is clear, then, that when it is said that the Son of man is come from heaven, this has not an outward but an inward signification; it is a spiritual, not a material, fact. The meaning is that though, apparently, Christ was born from the womb of Mary, in reality He came from heaven, from the center of the Sun of Reality, from the Divine World, and the Spiritual Kingdom. And as it has become evident that Christ came from the spiritual heaven of the Divine Kingdom, therefore, His disappearance under the earth for three days has an inner signification and is not an outward fact. In the same way, His resurrection from the interior of the earth is also symbolical; it is a spiritual and divine fact, and not material; and likewise His ascension to heaven is a spiritual and not material ascension.
Beside these explanations, it has been established and proved by science that the visible heaven is a limitless area, void and empty, where innumerable stars and planets revolve.
Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ's resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.
Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it." Abdu'l-Baha : Some Answered Questions
Still, the same questions. Why would the gospel writers tell the story as they did causing the first believers to think that Jesus had risen from the dead? His answer still doesn't mention the quote where Jesus says he is flesh and bone and not a ghost.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Going back that far we don't know. We take it on Faith that it was Ismael.

Just like we are told that Buddha originally taught the oneness of God yet over time His original Teachings became replaced. So we go with what the latest Manifestation says because we believe He is infallible and knows everything.

O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing.

The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. (Tablet to Shah of Persia)
The Jews and the Christians know and they say the opposite of what Islam and the Baha'i Faith says. Again, prior to Islam, why would they make that change? Originally, if Ishmael was the one God asked Abraham to sacrifice, how does that even make sense with where the story of the Hebrews, the Chosen People, goes from there?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Not if it's the same world with the same physical body having the same basic needs and desires.
You, in the body you're in now, when put in new situations learns new things and has to adapt. You really think you know what it would be like to be woman? Or, how about a black man born in Harlem? How about a young man in Germany in the 1930's? Maybe you could live two lives there, one as a Jew and another as a German soldier.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Not at all. It only implies and rightfully so that over time their trees have withered and are unable to produce fruit for later ages. Their teachings were only meant for ther age. Even the Bible and Quran speak of the end of their age when the Lord will reappear.
Their trees "withered"? So now Jews and Christians have a corrupted and misinterpret book and can't produce fruit? Unfortunately, according to a Baha'i interpretation, both religions were teaching the wrong things from the beginning.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Yes there are texts that go back further saying it was Isaac and there are also texts in Buddhism that make no mention of God. Original Texts can be also be lost which is what we are told with regards to Buddhism, that Buddhists do not possess Buddha's original Teachings.

The original reference to Ismael may have been lost also.
Again, prior to Islam, why would the Hebrew scribes collude to make this change?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
If These Manifestations were just ordinary men then why have Their Teachings had such a great effect on history even to the present day thousands of years after Their passing?

Why do the billions of people on earth take such delight in Their Teachings? Why not you or I?
Wait, one minute all those old religions are like trees that have withered away. Now, their teachings still have a great effect?

Plus, the teachings we are learning from now are different than what the manifestation originally taught? So what has a great effect on us today is false.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I don't know what happened to the body of Christ, just as I don't know the whereabouts of everyone who died 2,000 years ago. But I do know that Jeus died physically and His remains are on earth somewhere. I know He didn't rise from the dead and ascend into the stratosphere. That may have been plausible in a bygone era but its a belief that has lost its credibility now.
So any Christian that teaches that Jesus is alive and rose from the dead is teaching something that is false? Which includes Christians going all the way back to the beginning of Christianity. Did any early Christians not believe that Jesus rose from the dead? Which makes all of the Christians that did believe it wrong. That's the whole point. Christians have never taught the "truth" as taught by Baha'is. They were wrong then and wrong now. Christianity has never been right... if Baha'is are right.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
If the followers recalled accurately their Teacher's words and passed them down through oral traditions then it gives some validity to their message. Its not a perfect method of retaining the stories and teachings as you can imagine.

Its not helpful to be black and white. Eg 'The gospels are either literal or they are not.' or 'The sacred texts are either perfectly recorded or they are completely wrong.' I think there are plenty of shades of grey.
Tell that to the Jews and Christians. Their Holy Books aren't God's Word. They are "shades" of grey.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
There are pilgrim notes on this, I find it of interest;

"....Concerning the location of the burial site of Jesus' sacred remains, a letter dated 22 March 1982 written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer states:

Pilgrims have recorded in their notes oral statements made by 'Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi to the effect that the disciples hid the body of Christ by burying it under the wall of Jerusalem, and that it is now under the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. The House of Justice knows of nothing in the Writings of the Faith, however, explicitly confirming these statements."

Resurrection and Return of Jesus

Hope all is well, Regards Tony
Hold on... What did you win? The disciples were able to hide the body and not get caught by the Jews and the Romans? And then let a false story enter into the sacred teachings that Jesus had come back to life?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Michael Sours covers the resurrection really well as well as a number of other Christian topics such as the Divinity of Christ, Salvation, and the Exclusive claims of Jesus. He has a trilogy of books that I found excellent.

https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Biblical-Evidence-v-1/dp/1851680187/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_c

You seem very acquainted with various the nuances on this topic:)
That is not an accepted Christian book. It is written by someone trying to prove an opposing view. Or that argument only works when non-Baha'is give a critical view of the Baha'i Faith?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I think you are just making the Scriptures say, what you wanted to say. Jesus emphasized more on the Spirit of acts, rather than outward works and Laws, as the Jews were just emphasizing too much on outward Laws.
On the other hand, Jesus, and the writers of Bible emphasized so much on Scriptures, and what is written. Here are some verses:


"For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope."

Romans 15:4

"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work."

2 Timothy 3:16-17

".... For what does the Scripture say?...."

Romans 4:1-25


These and many other instances in Bible proves, the Authors of Bible, referred to Scriptures in order to validate their sayings. This is the way of discussing Religions belief from Jesus, and Authors of Bible.




My point is not refute anyone. It is to point out that, the sources of Religions are their written Scriptures. It is the Book of a Religion, if one wants to talk about the beliefs of a particular religions. All Religions have Scriptures. The saying of Buddha, Krishna,..etc have been considered by the Scholars of Religions as the source of studying, and discussion.

Moreover, if we want to learn about physics, we must learn it from Scientist, or those physic PHDs who wrote books. If we want to learn about History, we must learn from the history books written by good historians.
I find it strange that when people want to learn or talk about religions, they do not want to learn it from the Founders of Religions. Instead they want use their imaginations, to make up ideas, or refer to what ordinary people (believers or non-believers) say. So, that was the point I was trying to make.
How about when the Scriptures are wrong? Like with Isaac instead of Ishmael?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
How to make ALL "accepted" religions conform to yours -

Just claim they have lost the original true teachings, - and your leader has God's ear, and knows all.

*
Fortunately, Baha'u'llah tells us what all these religions really said. And, remarkably, they all agree with the Baha'i Faith.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Hi Adrian!

It is intriguing to note that Bahá'í pilgrims who asked 'Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi about Jesus's body say that both men stated that "the disciples hid the body of Christ by burying it under the wall of Jerusalem, and that it is now under the Church of the Holy Sepulchre." The Universal House of Justice adds that there is "nothing in the Writings of the Faith, however, explicitly confirming these statements.

Resurrection and Return of Jesus

Here is the pilgrim's note. I agree the remains are in earth.


People wonder what happened to the body of Christ after the crucifixion. It was buried by the disciples under the wall of Jerusalem to protect it from the Roman legions. It remained buried there for some 260 years. It remained buried under the wall of Jerusalem until the mother of the Emperor Constantine, who had herself become a Christian, came to Jerusalem and had the Church of the Holy Sepulcher built – at which time the body of Christ was removed from under the wall of the city and was placed under the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. And that is where it is today. The Baha’is should be aware of this fact when they visit the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, which is the holiest place in Christendom.
That is not the most Holy place. It is the place that destroys Christianity if it is true. Again and again, why did the disciples allow the false story to get written into the gospels? They didn't recognize him in all those appearances, because they never happened... if the Baha'i story is true. The story is not some witty symbolic thing. It is a made up hoax.

All those poor Christians that got killed believing Jesus rose from the dead. Those poor gullible fools.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Implausible, yes. Another story that is part truth, part allegory, part mythology. Who of us knows for certain exactly what happened.
But who wrote all this books in the Bible? Not the manifestation, so they aren't the infallible Word of God. Yet, you use them as if they are some special symbolic language. You can't have it both ways. If they are fake, corrupted, all or parts of them not even by the manifestation, then what the debate? Get rid of them. But you can't and won't, because you also say how great and important these books are. But do you study book from religions known and accepted as false? So why these "corrupted" books?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hold on... What did you win? The disciples were able to hide the body and not get caught by the Jews and the Romans? And then let a false story enter into the sacred teachings that Jesus had come back to life?

Read the story of the execution of the Bab and what happened to his body and what happened to His Followers without Baha'u'llah's guidance.

It mirrors the story of Jesus, but by unfolding in slightly different ways gives answers to Biblical issues.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
So any Christian that teaches that Jesus is alive and rose from the dead is teaching something that is false? Which includes Christians going all the way back to the beginning of Christianity. Did any early Christians not believe that Jesus rose from the dead? Which makes all of the Christians that did believe it wrong. That's the whole point. Christians have never taught the "truth" as taught by Baha'is. They were wrong then and wrong now. Christianity has never been right... if Baha'is are right.

For many centuries most thought the earth was the centre of the universe. Scientific knowledge gained ascendancy, and the prevailing worldview changed completely. The same is happening with the resurrection. Many are preferring science and reason, and turning away from Christian fundamentalism. The fact that most Christians once believed that the physical resurrection was literally true is irrelevant.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"fleshly bodies that he materialized"? What's the point? He had an earthly body that died and rotted away? But then he "materialized" other fleshly bodies? You really agree with their explanation?

I said "It is not fully in tune with Baha'i thought".

Why it was posted is that it is a different view from those who are "Christians".

Regards Tony
 
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