Does man have free will?

Colin_Admin said:

I understand that he can see everything but if he can see what happens in the future then isnt that eliminating free will.

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Colin_Admin said:

I am still fuzzy on this point because from what it looks like to me is that you dont have free will.

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When we talk about divine destiny we are talking about an unseen subject.so no wonder that we can hardly agree with a certain concept.

but to clarify my point, I believe there is no contradiction between the reality-or let me say assumption- that god pre-records our actions and the other reality that man has afree will.

for example we humans can anticipate the weather conditions in the future,and i for example can strongly believe that if i asked for help or assistance from a certain friend he will do it for me,also it is said that animals can feel earthquakes before it acctually happens.

since humans and other creations who both have limited powers can successfully do these anticipations (some is made by instinct others by logic or science).

then no wonder that the creator whom is supposed to have the absolute power can undoubtedly know what we are going to do in the future. and again without intruding our free will.

n.b. As I mentioned in my previous reply, those 7 point were a summary of an article. i would recommend u to view it for a broader view. The link once again is
http://www.fethullahgulen.org/essentials/pg20.html#b

This is a topic that has confused me since I was a child.

I was taught in the Christian Church that everything that will be done from now to eternity was written as soon as the universe was created. That never sat well with me.

If it is already written down (putting God aside) that I will drink orange juice instead of milk this morning, is that really a choice? To me it is not. But my husband says it is still a choice. (I love to debate with him, he's the logical to my emotional, he's brilliant and fun)

Luckily tho, for me, I don't believe in God or Fate or Destiny, so the idea that boggled me from the age of 8 no longer confuses me, I threw it out.

As far as peer pressure and society is concerned, of course! You can always say NO, just get up the courage to do it just be aware of the consequences.

Have that dern glass of wine man! Who cares?

So you know, I've been myself and proud since I was 15 - I only compromise myself for my parents... that's as it should be. Take a deep breath and jump off into the deep end! The water is nice.

EL

still can't agree that G-d "pre-recorded" unless He "pre-recorded" all situations, all chaos factors thrown in, all possible solutions and actions. Then it could be "pre-recorded" I suppose and still leave the free will intact.

This is in direct repsonse to Runt:

Second, we are not on this earth to learn to ignore the Ego! We are spiritual beings who were once completely immersed in God who are having a temporary physical experience before returning to God. Life is a brief escape from that vast pool of all knowing Consciousness (“God”). We were put on this world to live life, not to try to escape from it! We will only be here a short time before we return to God. Enjoy the time you have! It IS an experience! Become deeply immersed in your interests and develop your talents. Enjoy your emotions, allow yourself to feel them, but do not let them control you (you also have a mind for a reason). When you join God you will not experience these emotions, so enjoy them while you can. Love, passion, hate, anger are among the greatest diversions of all. How much more immersed in your life can you become than when you are at the peak of an emotion?

I can't describe the way I felt when I read this post I really couldn't - why I don't know but I want to break your post down to parts. In the first line you said we are not here to ignore the ego. Well that is very true indeed what we should do is recognise it for what it is - THE ROOT CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S SUFFERING THE DESIRE TO RECEIVE FOR OURSLEVES!!! [B]I wan't everyone on this forum to think about that for a minute. Really think about it. Wars, Murder, Corruption, The Mafia, poverty, child abuse, crime ect ect are all as a result of the desire to recieve pleasure for ourselves. When mankind tries to look for solutions to these problems they turn to the politicians who have delivered humanity - well sweet nothing! Humanity has seemingly lost all direction and doesn't know where the hell to turn in order to turn the situation around[/B]. We are constantly making mistakes and yet we do not realise that the root cause of all our problems is essentially right under our noses. The second point I want to take up is this "We were put on this earth to live life not to try and escape it!" What we where put on this Earth do is to want to overcome the selfishness we find in ourselves in order that we can cross into the spiritual world whilst still living in this world. This is not giving up on life this is creating the edifice of your own eternity ! If you follow your ego it will lead you to your grave and you will have achieved absolutely nothing. It will have robbed you.

hello every body ,

I am gratefull to "deahca2" and i would like to thank her because she was the one who told me about this site.

I saw her talking about it on one of yahoo's chatting rooms, i asked her for the link and she gave it to me. did u remember deahca2 ?

Any way i have a question to u out of curousity. why do u always write "g-d" rather than "god" ?!

Thanks once again

Truthseeker said:

Now on the subject of free will let me give you a practical example. The Rabash - a great kabbalist said: That if he had his way he would have spent the whole day in pyjamas. The only reason why he didn't was because it would not have been condoned by society

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i would say rebelians wear whatever they like, they dont care about others opinion.

also

Let me give you an example from my own experience. When I am out for a drink with my friends I would be very happy to have a glass of wine but knowing the reaction I will get off some of my friends (Basically it isn't considered macho to have a glass of wine.) I will settle for a pint like the rest of them

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many guys would have drunk whatever they like.

finally

Now to all those people that have free will - and I am challenging the bravest amongst you - I wan't to know the next time a similar situation to the one I have given you happens to you and when it does (And it inevitably will!) then come back to me and tell me you have free will.

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i think i answered that.

THE ROOT CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S SUFFERING THE DESIRE TO RECEIVE FOR OURSLEVES!!!

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This is why we must practice temperance (but not abstinence). We must realize that there is a difference between enjoying our lives at all costs and enjoying our lives in such a way that we do not ruin the physical experience for any other individuals! I am not saying we should go out and do WHATEVER we want to bring ourselves pleasure; I am saying we must enjoy the physical experience with responsibility!

best friend said:

for example we humans can anticipate the weather conditions in the future,and i for example can strongly believe that if i asked for help or assistance from a certain friend he will do it for me,also it is said that animals can feel earthquakes before it acctually happens.

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I dont see the correlation between Gods pre-recording and humans being able to predict the weather. When we try to predict the weather we are just making a guess by looking at the way the weather is before it reaches the given point we are looking at. The point about asking your friend if he will help you is an assumption that he will, and this is not the same as God having foresight. Its not the same because you are making a guess that he will help. Guessing is not having the ability of foresight. About the animals being able to detect earthquakes before they happens is because of their sensory abilities and they are not detecting the earthquake before it happens but rather feeling the shock waves before humans. They are more acute then humans.

Maybe could you be more specific on your descriptions or give different ones because I am still unclear of your proof of free will.

I've been following Runt's and Truthseekers debate with glee. Such valid and wonderful points on both sides. thanx you two.

about G-d. I'm Jewish, that is one reason. We revere G-d totally ( well , I'll amend that to say some of us, LOL). You see I don't want to mess up typing G-d. I'm a crappy typist. I doubt that G-d would mind , if I did, but, I would very much.
deah

LMAO Deah! You're very welcome! I find us entertaining as well... this site gives me something to do during Comparative Religion other than simple, boring old "research".

This is why we must practice temperance (but not abstinence). We must realize that there is a difference between enjoying our lives at all costs and enjoying our lives in such a way that we do not ruin the physical experience for any other individuals!

Right ok by this statement you are admitting your a pleasure seeker right ? Our body is limited in as much as it only awards an individual limited pleasures we are never satisfied with anything the body can award us. Because of this we constantly seek the next source of pleasure that give us a temporary thrill. For instance lets say you have a craving for a chocolate bar. The minute you get your hands on one and taste it your desire for chocolate will be momentarily extinguished and you will then seek something else to give you pleasure in a vain attempt to satisfy our bodies desires.

Now we can see a human being is essentially like a drug addict. Pleasure is our drug, our bodies are addicted to it and just can't get enough of it we like drug addicts incessantly seek the next source of pleasure.

If you choose to serve the body in such a way then you are attempting to satisfy a constantly ravenous beast - you will never be able to satisfy its constant demands for pleasure because the body only awards fleeting pleasure. (The sensation of an orgasm doesn't last long does it ? But how aboutexperiencing that feeling as a constant sensation. Sounds good right ? Bad news is our physical body can't award us with it.) To get out of this cycle we have to realise that our desire for temporal pleasures is what is causing us all of our problems.

We have all heard about people who have seemingly had it all (Film stars ect, ect) and have got depressed or turned to drugs, drink for one reason or another. People look at them and think "How can they get depressed ? They have money, glamour, fame and everything anyone could want. I have virtually nothing how can they get depressed ?" The reason these people get depressed is because they have run out of things by which they can satisfy themselves with. They have done it all, got it all or had it all where is there left for them to go ? Millionares often say that when they acquired there first million £ or $ that it no longer had any worth in their eyes only 2 million had worth in there eyes when they got to 2 only 3 million then had any worth in there eyes and so on and so forth. (A good example of the way in which the desires of our body seduce us and leads us absolutely nowhere.)

So we have a choice - We can serve a body that can never be satified anyway and chase flleting pleasure - Or we can seek an alternative where we will confront true pleasures and for once become truly satisfied. For those of you wanting to choose the latter you should visit www.kabbalah.info. and take your first steps towards true spirituality and connection with The Creator.

P.S.

Runt I checked out your website link. It was great! I really enjoyed it it seems we have a lot in common to. I love Shakespeare and would like to become an actor. (I have an auditions for drama school soon.)

Congratulations on attaining your yellow belt in Taekwondo as well.

Hi All,

I just wanted to add something from Rabbi Michael Laitmans Book: Attaining The Worlds Beyond (I have his permission to re-print this section of his book)

Against your will you are born, against your will you live and against your will you die." (This is actually an extract from the Talmud called the ethics of the fathers but included in the first chapter of Attaining the Worlds Beyond.)

Forgive me for stating the obvious but none of us choose to be born right ? We do not choose who are parents are, are circumstances, environment ect ect right ? And at the end of the we are all at the mercy of death who will not spare any human being on this Earth. So with these things borne in mind how can anyone possibly say that we have free will ?

Forgive me for stating the obvious but none of us choose to be born right ? We do not choose who are parents are, are circumstances, environment ect ect right ?

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This is an assumption, not a proven fact. I believe that we DO chose to live, when to live, what kind of life to live, who our parents are, what the circumstances of our environment are, etc.... ALL BEFORE WE ARE BORN! If I am right and we were originally fully submerged in the Consciousness that is God, (rather than merely being connected to it because we are still PART of it, as we are now), we knew EVERYTHING, and we, having free will and the powers of God (because at that time we were inseperable from God) we literally CHOSE our lives. And when we return to that pool of Consciousness and are reabsorbed, perhaps we will one day chose again to visit the mere physical plane and "live" again.

I can understand that. However, our free will is within limits. I'm sure we can all agree on that. Example, a child born in a middle class family in Western Society has more "free will" than a child born in poverty in a "banana republic". or my free will states that I will walk on air, and the reality is, we can't.
However, within the boundaries of our free will, whatever they may be, we still have choices, all of us.

Colin_Admin said:

The point about asking your friend if he will help you is an assumption that he will, and this is not the same as God having foresight. Its not the same because you are making a guess that he will help. Guessing is not having the ability of foresight

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I completely agree that guessing is different from the ability of foresight. my aim was to make it easy to imagine that god can know every thing about what we call it future(which is not like that to him).
As i believe that God has no past,present or future like us. coz he is the one who created time as well as he created for e.g; colours, gravity, human soul ,day and night, conscience,........etc
And i mentioned before that...

best friend said:

God is beyond all time and space and everything is included in His Knowledge, He encompasses time with its past, present and future divisions in a single, undivided point.

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about what colin said to me

Colin_Admin said:

Maybe could you be more specific on your descriptions or give different ones because I am still unclear of your proof of free will.

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well colin i was thinking of more relevant examples and i came up with this one;some people had dreams or visions about some events and it became true . so if humans can sometimes successfully know about the future, then god whom is supposed to have the absolute power and knowledge can know EVERY THING about the future. i know that this example is debatable but i believe in it because i experienced that once before, and i will try to search for information about it as well as finding more examples (if there is any, lol)
best regards to everyone

I can understand that. However, our free will is within limits.

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Aye. How much we can exercise our free will is dependant on our present state. We are restricted by the natural laws that act on our physical bodies, on the laws of our society, and by other factors. For example, say I wanted go visit the moon tomorrow. Well... the reason I can't go is not because God decided before I was born that I couldn't go... it is because I don't have the influence, the money, the training, or a space shuttle conveniently at my beck and call But in THEORY I could go to the moon tomorrow...

RE: visions of the future

Interesting and something to ponder. Perhaps SOME things are indeed written in stone and can't be changed. The Moshiach springs to mind about this being "written in stone". Maybe its a combination of both?

My five cents is that free will is a term to describe our ability to reflect on our actions and imagine alternatives, and in so doing, influence them. Babies don't have free will because they can't reflect and can't imagine alternatives, but as we get older, we are held to be more responsible because we are expected to 'know better'.

Therefore, the more you learn about yourself, why you feel and act in certain ways to certain circumstances, the more free will you have! So not everyone is on the same level in this regard.

Alaric:
Makes sense to me. AFter all it's all about choices.
deah