All Dogs Go to Heaven

SalixIncendium said:

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So here is my question:

What does your religion teach you about those beings other than humans and the afterlife? Do you accept these teachings, or feel they're not quite right but you follow them anyway because it is a part of your belief structure?

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I'm a follower of Meher Baba who stated that all forms have a soul which develops through lower forms and then becomes human before moving on. So dogs might become humans in their next lifetime. The chart that expresses this is

Deeje said:

This is how I see scripture....it's more about the big picture than the small details.

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Haha. If ya say so.

To tell you honestly, if I were Abraham I would have told god no and suffered the consequences. If I value the life god gave, then I would never think god would tell me to kill for obedience. When people die, we grow sick and die naturally regardless of how. Our bodies are fragile so even though they can heal real well, they are still dying. To speed up that death through a choice of obedience is ironic, really. It's like a mother having a child and then telling the child she has the right to kill him because she is his mother. (I know drastic-but showing the point of drastic act of obedience).

I mean, people put their full face on the ground in worship to god. They jump and down. They go door to door in the blistering heat. and snow. The intentions are fine like Abraham. His intention was fine. Just the act is barbaric.

I know god gives life and takes life. I wouldn't want to live if I knew god can take my life outside of naturally dying. That sounds like cheating. Not even parents go that far to telling their child they cant do anything without them. Unless they are abusive parents or something, at least humans have some balance.

We put less trust in humans and more trust in god. I honestly don't understand that. I can't imagine christ coming down and seeing you guys kiss his feet when he told you to feed the poor through the spirit of his father.

Anyway, thank you for answering the question. I know everyone is inspired by the bible in different ways. In my opinion, some parts of the bible is pure barbaric. Just sayin'

SalixIncendium said:

I've heard several interpretations of hell ranging from life here on earth to Dante's Inferno. How do you view hell?

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I am very archaic in that just like traditional polytheistic cults I do not think the notion of a hell or heaven is technically practical, primarily if you are a polytheist which you are not so forget monotheism for a moment.

I do not believe in a benevolent god obviously and have concluded that all gods are amoral and without care to our lives as a whole. If we die and any such gods have granted us a place to continue our conscious thought then just like the Greeks, Babylonians, Sumerians, Nabataeans, and archaic Jews believe and say that the afterlife is neutral and not designed for us. The Sumerians believed the afterlife was designed to benefit the gods and separate themselves from us since we refused to serve them so the afterlife was dismal and bleak. Obviously this connects to the divine right of kings and nobility.

So to me the only hell is to live a life not honoring the gods, to live a life of hedonism and without meaning. To obey the gods is to honor them and achieve the highest values possible like: love, strength, compassion, courage, and wisdom. Hell is self induced or willed by the gods for reasons left unknowable.

SalixIncendium said:

Those of you that thought that I wanted entertain a debate about the Disney movie are probably going to be disappointed. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble.


I've referenced a couple of times on this forum the principle reason for my departure from Catholicism and ultimately Christianity. But for the purpose of this thread, I'll reiterate it here:

When I was a wee lad, I attended CCD. During one of the classes, we were discussing what happens to people when they die. When the nun discussed the concept of Heaven, she only mentioned people. I had a nagging question on my mind so I raised my hand. When called upon, I asked, "Do animals go to Heaven, too?"

Mind you I've felt a connection with animals and nature from a very young age. Imagine my dismay with I was met with the response, "No, only people go to heaven. Animals do not have souls." Ultimately I argued my viewpoint, but was promptly shut down.

This drove a wedge between me and Catholicism, and thus began my journey seeking paths that accepted what I knew deep down to be true.


So here is my question:

What does your religion teach you about those beings other than humans and the afterlife? Do you accept these teachings, or feel they're not quite right but you follow them anyway because it is a part of your belief structure?

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It's funny. I had a moment with my roommate's son not too long ago about this very subject. His mom is a devout Catholic, and he is too. I had my pug dog at our apartment, and he asked me if I was sad that I wouldn't see my dog after I died in heaven. So, I immediately said, "Mugsy is without a doubt going to be in heaven. I mean, if I get there, Mugsy definitely will ... she's the greatest." Then he told me that animals don't have souls and they don't go to heaven. I said that was absolutely untrue; that we will all be able to play with Mugsy in heaven. But, then my roommate told me to lay off, so I changed the subject.

I cannot fathom why anyone would think imperfect people would go to heaven but not perfect, loyal, amazing animals. It doesn't make any sense to me, and it seemed like it confused this kid quite a bit.

Where in the Bible does it say that dogs don't go to heaven?

SalixIncendium said:

Those of you that thought that I wanted entertain a debate about the Disney movie are probably going to be disappointed. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble.


I've referenced a couple of times on this forum the principle reason for my departure from Catholicism and ultimately Christianity. But for the purpose of this thread, I'll reiterate it here:

When I was a wee lad, I attended CCD. During one of the classes, we were discussing what happens to people when they die. When the nun discussed the concept of Heaven, she only mentioned people. I had a nagging question on my mind so I raised my hand. When called upon, I asked, "Do animals go to Heaven, too?"

Mind you I've felt a connection with animals and nature from a very young age. Imagine my dismay with I was met with the response, "No, only people go to heaven. Animals do not have souls." Ultimately I argued my viewpoint, but was promptly shut down.

This drove a wedge between me and Catholicism, and thus began my journey seeking paths that accepted what I knew deep down to be true.


So here is my question:

What does your religion teach you about those beings other than humans and the afterlife? Do you accept these teachings, or feel they're not quite right but you follow them anyway because it is a part of your belief structure?

Click to expand...

Death is the return to nothing, the not being. The spirit, a record of what we were, human or animal, goes back to God. But, it is not alive. I have often thought it funny if God reused the spirit of an organism if he liked it and put it in some other organism. This is not examined in scripture. In fact, the question is only raised there:

Carlita said:

I know god gives life and takes life. I wouldn't want to live if I knew god can take my life outside of naturally dying. That sounds like cheating. Not even parents go that far to telling their child they cant do anything without them. Unless they are abusive parents or something, at least humans have some balance.

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Haha. If ya say so. God isn't human. I thought that was rather obvious.

I have yet to meet a balanced human.

Grandliseur said:

Death is the return to nothing, the not being. The spirit, a record of what we were, human or animal, goes back to God. But, it is not alive. I have often thought it funny if God reused the spirit of an organism if he liked it and put it in some other organism. This is not examined in scripture. In fact, the question is only raised there:

Ecclesiastes 3:21: Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?​

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Interesting thought GL. Since the spirit is the "breath", I see it as returning life to a recreated person.

Based merely on human observation, no one can authoritatively answer the question raised in Ecclesiastes 3: 21 regarding the spirit. But God’s Word answers that there is nothing that humans have as a result of birth that gives them superiority over beasts when they die. But because of God’s merciful provision through Christ, the prospect of living forever has been opened up to humans who exercise faith, but not to animals.

Just as Adam was animated with "spirit" or "breath" so that his body came to life, so in the 're-creation' or resurrection, humans will be reanimated with the breath of life, having all their memories restored so that they can recognize who they are and continue the life that was taken from them. They will have no memory of an interruption, no matter how long they 'slept in death'. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

Deeje said:

Since the spirit is the "breath"

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That is actually not accurate. Though, the word spirit has so many applications it makes it hard to pin down.

When Christ died, he asked God for him to receive his spirit: "
When Stephen was about to die, he also said something similar: Acts 7:59 . . .: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

If it were only our breath, these scriptures become meaningless.
God actually tells us that it is inside of us: Zechariah 12:1 . . .and forming the spirit of man inside him. This refer to our growth from child to adult, and even the continual growth we might experience as a human being during our lives. Thus, a child's spirit is not the same as a full grown person's. Thus God shapes our spirit, or forms it.

And we are clearly told that when we die, the spirit returns to God who gave it.

The conclusion is then the while the human being is alive, our spirit is alive. This spirit is our mental inclinations, our memories, that which motivates each person, and when it returns to God - it includes all about us, language, gender, race, size, and the previously mentioned. This spirit that returns to God is static, not alive anymore, but God needs this information so as to resurrect those who have his approval.

Here, then, the word spirit has nothing to do with breath.

leibowde84 said:

Where in the Bible does it say that dogs don't go to heaven?

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Where does it say in the Bible that humans were ever supposed to go to heaven? Didn't God put us on earth to enjoy everlasting life with the animals?

There are no dogs in heaven. Sorry.

SalixIncendium said:

I'm not all that familiar with Baha'i. I'm guessing it, in the mainstream, teaches that animals don't have souls but humans do? Are there different branches of Baha'i, one of them being liberal?

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That's what the teachings are.
I'm not part of a branch, i'm just a liberal individual who is part of the Baha'i faith

Deeje said:

I see the Creator as the giver of life and one who has the right to take it, whatever the circumstances might appear to be in human estimations. God has four cardinal qualities (among others) that are all in perfect balance...Love, justice, wisdom and power....

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That is the kind of statement that turns me away from the religions of Abraham.

That is like saying - I gave birth to the child, - so I have the right to take the little Bas**rd out. (kill that baby, his father didn't do what I said.)

Baloney. That would make God skitzo, and a murderer. These are the writings of men.

We have horrid stories such as where YHVH kills David's innocent baby - for the father's crimes. And then glorifies the criminal father.

How about those rape the wives - when mad at the King? These would be Straight out crimes.

Or a raped women having to marry her rapist?

Being able to rape, and breed, and keep slaves forever?

Or where they fought a stupid war, killing off most of one tribe, - not leaving enough women to breed more stupid, - so they kidnap and rape the women of Shiloh.

These writings are the sheer stupidity of men, and are not from any God.

*

SalixIncendium said:

Your debating skills need some serious work. Anyone ever tell you that?

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Also noted.

Grandliseur said:

That is actually not accurate. Though, the word spirit has so many applications it makes it hard to pin down.

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Yes, and this is why it is difficult to tell with any degree of certainty what this verse is saying.

According to Strongs, the Hebrew is "ruwach" which is translated .....Spirit or spirit (232x), wind (92x), breath (27x), side (6x), mind (5x), blast (4x), vain (2x), air (1x), anger (1x), cool (1x), courage (1x), miscellaneous (6x).

Its Greek equivalent is pneuma which is translated.....Spirit (111x), Holy Ghost (89x), Spirit (of God) (13x), Spirit (of the Lord) (5x), (My) Spirit (3x), Spirit (of truth) (3x), Spirit (of Christ) (2x), human (spirit) (49x), (evil) spirit (47x), spirit (general) (26x), spirit (8x), (Jesus' own) spirit (6x), (Jesus' own) ghost (2x), miscellaneous (21x).

Not exactly an easy word to translate apparently.

In English we recognize words like 'pneumonia' or 'pneumatic' to be connected to air or breath. Not someone's personality.

If God can recreate the whole person in a resurrection, it goes without saying that this person will be brought back remembering all that s/he is and was. These are persons long dead in the majority of cases, but since life ceases at death, the passage of time will not matter. It will be just like they closed their eyes a moment ago.

If God knows all the trillions of stars by name, I doubt he would have trouble remembering millions of human personalities in order to recreate them. I don't believe he has human limitations.

God actually tells us that it is inside of us: Zechariah 12:1 . . .and forming the spirit of man inside him. This refer to our growth from child to adult, and even the continual growth we might experience as a human being during our lives. Thus, a child's spirit is not the same as a full grown person's. Thus God shapes our spirit, or forms it.

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Or conversely, it could be speaking about the breath that keeps a soul alive. God does not pre-determine what personality or spirit a human will have. He gives breath to all, but the individual human spirit is basically shaped by genetics and environment.

And we are clearly told that when we die, the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 7 Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the [true] God who gave it. . .​

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It was God who created humans with the ability to breathe. Adam was a lifeless corpse until God animated him with the "breath" (ruwach) of life. So only God can return breath to a lifeless, recreated body. That is the way I see it. It is just my opinion though.

The conclusion is then the while the human being is alive, our spirit is alive. This spirit is our mental inclinations, our memories, that which motivates each person, and when it returns to God - it includes all about us, language, gender, race, size, and the previously mentioned. This spirit that returns to God is static, not alive anymore, but God needs this information so as to resurrect those who have his approval.

Here, then, the word spirit has nothing to do with breath.

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It is one conclusion, but not the only one.

In keeping with the many ways that this word is translated, it is apparently up for grabs as to its definite meaning in any given verse, as you mentioned.

Deeje said:

Yes, and this is why it is difficult to tell with any degree of certainty what this verse is saying.

According to Strongs, the Hebrew is "ruwach" which is translated .....Spirit or spirit (232x), wind (92x), breath (27x), side (6x), mind (5x), blast (4x), vain (2x), air (1x), anger (1x), cool (1x), courage (1x), miscellaneous (6x).

Its Greek equivalent is pneuma which is translated.....Spirit (111x), Holy Ghost (89x), Spirit (of God) (13x), Spirit (of the Lord) (5x), (My) Spirit (3x), Spirit (of truth) (3x), Spirit (of Christ) (2x), human (spirit) (49x), (evil) spirit (47x), spirit (general) (26x), spirit (8x), (Jesus' own) spirit (6x), (Jesus' own) ghost (2x), miscellaneous (21x).

Not exactly an easy word to translate apparently.

In English we recognize words like 'pneumonia' or 'pneumatic' to be connected to air or breath. Not someone's personality.

If God can recreate the whole person in a resurrection, it goes without saying that this person will be brought back remembering all that s/he is and was. These are persons long dead in the majority of cases, but since life ceases at death, the passage of time will not matter. It will be just like they closed their eyes a moment ago.

If God knows all the trillions of stars by name, I doubt he would have trouble remembering millions of human personalities in order to recreate them. I don't believe he has human limitations.

Or conversely, it could be speaking about the breath that keeps a soul alive. God does not pre-determine what personality or spirit a human will have. He gives breath to all, but the individual human spirit is basically shaped by genetics and environment.


It was God who created humans with the ability to breathe. Adam was a lifeless corpse until God animated him with the "breath" (ruwach) of life. So only God can return breath to a lifeless, recreated body. That is the way I see it. It is just my opinion though.



It is one conclusion, but not the only one.

In keeping with the many ways that this word is translated, it is apparently up for grabs as to its definite meaning in any given verse, as you mentioned.

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Well, another point not agreed upon. It is becoming a habit, it seems. And, you want me to join a church with which I can find little agreement. Funny, don't you think.

SalixIncendium said:

What does your religion teach you about those beings other than humans and the afterlife? Do you accept these teachings, or feel they're not quite right but you follow them anyway because it is a part of your belief structure?

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The souls of animals have been observed to exist by those who perceive spiritual phenomena.

Many people are taught incorrectly that animals cannot have souls. They are confused by the difference in the capacities of man versus the capacities of animals. They reason that animals do not have souls because they lack the capacities of people. This is false reasoning because the soul is not dependent upon the capacity of the physical form.

Although this should be self-evident, the ego of man places his own soul as being more important than the souls of other beings so much so that not only will he say the souls of other beings cannot exist, he will view his own soul as superior to that of his fellow man.

so if exodus 3:14-15 are true then God is everything visible and invisible. i doubt such a thing would be self-destructive except in transforming.

this would agree with john 1:3, because nothing can exist apart, or without/outside, of god.

would agree with isaiah 66:2, all things being god.


Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

danieldemol said:

That's what the teachings are.
I'm not part of a branch, i'm just a liberal individual who is part of the Baha'i faith

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Just so I understand, you're not really Baha'i, then? You just follow some of their teachings?

Grandliseur said:

Well, another point not agreed upon. It is becoming a habit, it seems. And, you want me to join a church with which I can find little agreement. Funny, don't you think.

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No, not funny at all. No one wants you to join yourself to any body of believers with whom you find many points of disagreement. But if you find no points of agreement with anyone, what will you do?

Ponder This said:

The souls of animals have been observed to exist by those who perceive spiritual phenomena.

Many people are taught incorrectly that animals cannot have souls. They are confused by the difference in the capacities of man versus the capacities of animals. They reason that animals do not have souls because they lack the capacities of people. This is false reasoning because the soul is not dependent upon the capacity of the physical form.

Although this should be self-evident, the ego of man places his own soul as being more important than the souls of other beings so much so that not only will he say the souls of other beings cannot exist, he will view his own soul as superior to that of his fellow man.

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Thanks for you insight. Does this have foundations in a specific religion or are these your own personal views?

Yaarp, waded my way through what is largely religious BS, thanks for the detailed certainty about what happens to doggies when they die theists, damn what would we do without you to spell out in detail how the afterlife works? It would just be people making up stuff they like to believe is true otherwise, right?

I'm a dog lover, they are more fun than a barrel full of monkeys, just like people they have different personalities, and differing levels of intelligence. Some are happy chasing their own tail, others can be taught really rather advanced commands. Anyone who has looked into the eyes of an intelligent and devoted dog sees more than a "dumb animal", dogs understand stuff, I suspect they may have some self awareness. Do dogs go to heaven? Yeah, of course they do, why not? Does it help you to believe that is true? Does it make your deity seem a little more palatable? Fine, go for it then, doggies go to heaven. The Burp has spoken! I'm going to be met by my old companions Zig and Zag at the pearly gates. Happy days!