All Dogs Go to Heaven

Ingledsva said:

There is no mention of Satan in the garden of Eden. Later Christians decide that.

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Opinion noted.

DavidFirth said:

Satan deceives people and has been since he deceived Eve in the garden. He keeps using the same lies and they just keep on working. He questioned Eve by outright lying and then deceived her about the only command God gave her. When will people learn to trust in God and Him only?

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I understand what you mean. I'm talking about your inspiration about the bible and why and how are you inspired by what is written.

For example, if I were still Christian, I would be Catholic 100%. Catholics have murdered. They have caused people to lose faith in Christ. They have made people lose business. They have harassed people. They have yelled to people like myself that we would go to hell (and I'm not indoctrinated just went to the wrong priest).

Yet, the Church is soooo much more than the c/ that the rest of you guys talk about it. It's, well, it's a whole lot more. No one asks about my experiences with the Church they have biases and stick with that.

So, bypassing the bias of the bible--you would have to be blind to not read what it says. I hope you understand why people think the bible is bad becasue they do not agree with murder regardless of who did it and why.

However, my relationship wasn't with the physical bible. That's idolism. It was with Christ. The body of the people.


Just as a hating catholic would ask me how I find inspiration in a pagan religion, I ask how do you find inspiration in a book that has murder in it. Remember --Book.

I'm not asking about god. I'm asking about the written book. (the words not The Word)

Ingledsva said:

I don't have to discuss it. All I have to do is post the verses as proof.

And of course we can go into the ridiculous as well. - talking snakes, talking donkeys, birds providing care for people, three days in a big fish under the ocean - and surviving, dead people crawling out of the ground when Jesus died and touring the city, etc.

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Opinions noted and rejected. Anything else?

Carlita said:

I understand what you mean. I'm talking about your inspiration about the bible and why and how are you inspired by what is written.

For example, if I were still Christian, I would be Catholic 100%. Catholics have murdered. They have caused people to lose faith in Christ. They have made people lose business. They have harassed people. They have yelled to people like myself that we would go to hell (and I'm not indoctrinated just went to the wrong priest).

Yet, the Church is soooo much more than the c/ that the rest of you guys talk about it. It's, well, it's a whole lot more. No one asks about my experiences with the Church they have biases and stick with that.

So, bypassing the bias of the bible--you would have to be blind to not read what it says. I hope you understand why people think the bible is bad becasue they do not agree with murder regardless of who did it and why.

However, my relationship wasn't with the physical bible. That's idolism. It was with Christ. The body of the people.

So, my question is--because the bible has all of these negative things, how and where do you find inspiration from it?​

Just as a hating catholic would ask me how I find inspiration in a pagan religion, I ask how do you find inspiration in a book that has murder in it. Remember --Book.

I'm not asking about god. I'm asking about the written book. (the words not The Word)

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Someone has corrupted your mind. God is absolutely holy and righteous. Christ died for you because He loves you. You concern yourself with nonsense.

DavidFirth said:

Someone has corrupted your mind. God is absolutely holy and righteous. Christ died for you because He loves you. You concern yourself with nonsense.

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I know this. Most non-Catholics call me corrupted, ill minded, misinformed, blind, and wolves. Not a good way to bring people to christ; but, that is not my point nor question.

That is why it is a question not a statement or opinion.

The bible does have murder in it. The written words (not the Word and not god) Please read this again.

The bible-the written words-has murder in it. Say Sodom and Gomorrah. Regardless the reason, why, and who, people were killed.

How are you inspired by these types of events?

When I read Catholic history and went to history class, I was horrified. That didn't change my relationship with christ at the time. It just mean, wow, really! but my relationship was with christ not a book.

So, let me ask. How are (not were, sorry) you inspired by the events in the Bible?

What lessons did these events taught you that other people like @Ingledsva does not see? (Doesn't matter why just asking what lessons and how you were inspired)

Please don't add me in your bias of non-christian people. I was a happy christian. I don't hate christians and I don't hate christ nor the bible. So don't put me in that boat)

Edit Just caught the last part. I am curious about your inspiration from the events of the bible. I don't think your experiences are nonesense. Why would you say that?

SalixIncendium said:

Those of you that thought that I wanted entertain a debate about the Disney movie are probably going to be disappointed. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble.


I've referenced a couple of times on this forum the principle reason for my departure from Catholicism and ultimately Christianity. But for the purpose of this thread, I'll reiterate it here:

When I was a wee lad, I attended CCD. During one of the classes, we were discussing what happens to people when they die. When the nun discussed the concept of Heaven, she only mentioned people. I had a nagging question on my mind so I raised my hand. When called upon, I asked, "Do animals go to Heaven, too?"

Mind you I've felt a connection with animals and nature from a very young age. Imagine my dismay with I was met with the response, "No, only people go to heaven. Animals do not have souls." Ultimately I argued my viewpoint, but was promptly shut down.

This drove a wedge between me and Catholicism, and thus began my journey seeking paths that accepted what I knew deep down to be true.


So here is my question:

What does your religion teach you about those beings other than humans and the afterlife? Do you accept these teachings, or feel they're not quite right but you follow them anyway because it is a part of your belief structure?

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Ecclesiastes 3:21
19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?

How do you "follow" a belief like that? There's nothing to do about it. God created the world, if he wants animals in heaven that's all on him, what have I to do with it? But How is Jesus coming back on a white horse if there are no animals in heaven?

DavidFirth said:

Opinion noted.

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FACT noted.

No place in Tanakh equates the serpent with Satan. That is later addition to the story.

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DavidFirth said:

Opinions noted and rejected. Anything else?

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Again - the book you believe says these impossible things.

It is what it is.

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Mister Silver said:

There is no afterlife and all life rots equally in the ground or burns equally in fire.

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once the body reaches a certain point it no longer rots. its just basic particulates of soil. the body can actually absorb nutrients from basic soil particulates.


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110602162820.htm


so we know the body is nothing but 3rd density matter but the mind is not necessarily the same as the body. consciousness, or intelligence, is more of a electrical state

https://phys.org/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html

danieldemol said:

In my religion animals don't have souls but since I'm liberal it wouldn't be an issue for me to have someone believe they do have souls as part of my congregation.

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I'm not all that familiar with Baha'i. I'm guessing it, in the mainstream, teaches that animals don't have souls but humans do? Are there different branches of Baha'i, one of them being liberal?

Carlita said:

I'll end with what I remember @Deeje saying to me once. "Regardless if Catholicism brings people to christ and they do good things, why would a christian want to believe in anything with pagan elements in it?"

So, I ask... regardless of how the bible inspires you, why would you believe something that has crime in it-especially death by means of salvation?

(Deeje you can answer too if you like)

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Taking the Bible as a commentary on the history of God's dealings with humankind, I can see from its contents that evil actions began to be acted out soon after the knowledge of evil was unleashed. Within one generation, the first murderer was produced....such is the power of sin coupled with evil intentions, and prompted by unchecked emotions.

I can accept that the Bible will contain all manner of subject matter when dealing with human behavior and God's response to it. Sometimes his response was to shed blood in providing proof of his justice. Many things in the Bible carried the death penalty. And God sometimes used his people to mete out that justice to opposers or in defense of their God-given land. This is all tempered by God's ability and promise to restore life for those who merit it.

What inspires me is the Bible's complete picture of what we are all about. What led us to where we are now? How far have we strayed from the path that the Creator set for us? How does he get us back, what Adam lost for us?

His answers inspire me as does his solution. The end result will be amazing.

Deeje said:

Taking the Bible as a commentary on the history of God's dealings with humankind, I can see from its contents that evil actions began to be acted out soon after the knowledge of evil was unleashed. Within one generation, the first murderer was produced....such is the power of sin coupled with evil intentions, and prompted by unchecked emotions.

I can accept that the Bible will contain all manner of subject matter when dealing with human behavior and God's response to it. Sometimes his response was to shed blood in providing proof of his justice. Many things in the Bible carried the death penalty. And God sometimes used his people to mete out that justice to opposers or in defense of their God-given land. This is all tempered by God's ability and promise to restore life for those who merit it.

What inspires me is the Bible's complete picture of what we are all about. What led us to where we are now? How far have we strayed from the path that the Creator set for us? How does he get us back, what Adam lost for us?

His answers inspire me as does his solution. The end result will be amazing.

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Hmm. Do you think that given the events of the people of the bible, the bible is more about man's experiences and how they relate to god (so, if Israelite killed women and children, it was something they felt god told them to do rather than the other way around as many non-christians see it)?

Can't think of how to phrase it. Do you think the bible is misinterpreted because some thing the bad events come from god and not the people? (For example, did god actually tell abram to take his child to be sacrifice or was he inspired by god to where he personally decided to sacrifice his child for god and that's what made god pleased?) I kinda like the second version since humans do the craziest things in my opinion. If it's the former, that's just kinda odd.

BSM1 said:

Excuse me if I disagree with your initial premise; this is truly Disneyism at it's finest. Do you actually believe you will possess the same-or any- physical body in a spiritually transcendent dimension such as "Heaven"? If not, why would you believe there will be "animals" trodding the "...streets of gold.."? If this is you belief, then God Bless you, but I have a serious problem with the idea that some hound is going to cock his leg and pee on the "Pearly Gates".

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It's because it doesn't rain there, isn't it? AMIRITE?

SalixIncendium said:

It's because it doesn't rain there, isn't it? AMIRITE?

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Well, there is that...

DavidFirth said:

Opinion noted.

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DavidFirth said:

Opinions noted and rejected. Anything else?

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Your debating skills need some serious work. Anyone ever tell you that?

Kemosloby said:

But How is Jesus coming back on a white horse if there are no animals in heaven?

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A valid point

I undoubtedly do not believe in heaven but I do believe in hell. So I do think all dogs go to hell at the end of the day, sort of like human scum.

Sha'irullah said:

I undoubtedly do not believe in heaven but I do believe in hell. So I do think all dogs go to hell at the end of the day, sort of like human scum.

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I've heard several interpretations of hell ranging from life here on earth to Dante's Inferno. How do you view hell?

Carlita said:

Hmm. Do you think that given the events of the people of the bible, the bible is more about man's experiences and how they relate to god (so, if Israelite killed women and children, it was something they felt god told them to do rather than the other way around as many non-christians see it)?

Can't think of how to phrase it. Do you think the bible is misinterpreted because some thing the bad events come from god and not the people? (For example, did god actually tell abram to take his child to be sacrifice or was he inspired by god to where he personally decided to sacrifice his child for god and that's what made god pleased?) I kinda like the second version since humans do the craziest things in my opinion. If it's the former, that's just kinda odd.

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I see the Creator as the giver of life and one who has the right to take it, whatever the circumstances might appear to be in human estimations. God has four cardinal qualities (among others) that are all in perfect balance...Love, justice, wisdom and power.

He would never do anything that was unloving or unjust and he would never abuse his power because it is tempered by all the other qualities. His wisdom is unsurpassed by any human thinking.

In using the example of Abraham being asked to sacrifice his beloved son, we can see an object lesson in trust. Abraham is the only human described in the Bible as "Jehovah's friend". Because he had such an intimate relationship with his God, he trusted Him with all his heart, understanding that if he was asked to do something so drastic and so against all that was human in him, there must have been a good reason. He followed through to the point of bringing the knife to his son's throat.....then God stopped him. He had passed an incredible test of faith and loyalty. Like Job, Abraham was rewarded for his unquestioning obedience.

Paul explains a bit more in Hebrews 11:17-19:
"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac—the man who had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up his only-begotten son— 18 although it had been said to him: “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 19 But he reasoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead, and he did receive him from there in an illustrative way."

So you see, why his obedience was unquestioning. All of God's future plans were to be fulfilled in Isaac....so Abraham figured that he would simply resurrect his son and continue on with those plans. He did not see Isaac's death as permanent.

The whole scenario was also pictorial because God himself was going to sacrifice his precious son too.
And the willingness of Isaac to become a sacrifice because his father required it, pictures Jesus' willingness to offer himself as a sacrifice for mankind. Isaac was a free willed man and could easily have overpowered his aged father if he had wanted to. He made no protest, but willingly submitted to the will of his Father. Jesus willingly submitted to the will of his Father also. Jesus' death was not permanent either.

This is how I see scripture....it's more about the big picture than the small details.

Well, personally I'm really agnostic about that sort of stuff in general. But if somehow we have places where souls can be escorted to after the body stops working and dies, I think animals and possibly plants might be able to experience death in similar ways to us. Especially animals who have complex emotional experiences like dogs and elephants.

I don't think a heaven or hell as some people envision them exist though. One seems to sound too good to be true and the other sounds like it'll stop meaning anything after a while.