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Confederate Statue pulled down by Protesters, Durham, North Carolina

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Dummy! It's better to plant hostas, various forms of sedum, and a variety of English and shrub roses! :p
Roses....the poodles of the plant world.....ew!
I do mix hostas with some types of sedum though....both shade & sun tolerant.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
(Also @lewisnotmiller, and @Revoltingest)

The first misconception is that The Civil War was about slaves, actually it was about northern states (which were much more industrial, and profitable) having undue control over the south. Slavery was literally 10% of the reason why it started in the first place. In that context, to call it a monument to some darker times is completely idiotic.


There were slaves in the north, in the south, and there were ex-slaves that owned slaves. You can't even make it a white-black racial issue without just being completely ignorant of the subject. The Confederates didn't represent all of these nasty things, but rather they were a revolution. It doesn't even make sense from a logical standpoint that most of the south would fight on that basis because other than a few (relatively) rich southern Democrats no one owned a single one.

I'm not going to deny that there is a great deal of complexity around the subject of the civil war, nor that slavery was an issue that affected both the Union and the Confederacy. All wars are complicated and morally ambiguous given the nature of violence. I am also uncomfortable over the way the statue was brought down as I don't like "mobs" even if I can sympathise with the causes they claim to represent.

On the specific history question as to the causes of the civil war, you will find that slavery was an explicitly stated reason for succession in the declarations of succession, including by means of states rights. below is a quote from Mississippi declaration which leaves no doubt about the reason for secession. I'm not a historian but I remember this issue came up before on RF and was surprised to find slavery stated in the actual text. I was too politically correct to imagine that a defence of slavery was possible so its something that I remember clearly. Slavery as an institution was also written into the Confederate Constitution as well.

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Mississippi Secession
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
(Also @lewisnotmiller, and @Revoltingest)

The first misconception is that The Civil War was about slaves, actually it was about northern states (which were much more industrial, and profitable) having undue control over the south. Slavery was literally 10% of the reason why it started in the first place.....
Nah.
Consider this brief argument that slavery was crucial in starting the war....
https://www.nps.gov/liho/planyourvisit/upload/cw_slavery_site_bulletin.pdf

I agree that it was about northern power over southern states.
But this power was addressing slavery, particularly thru the new Republican Party.
(Democrats were largely OK with slavery, but were split.)
 
I agree with Father Heathen. It should be the local community's prerogative to decide what art is displayed in their public spaces and what meaning that art has to them. Tearing down statues unlawfully circumvents a fair process and sets a bad precedent, in my view. There has to be a better way.

I get that a Confederate soldier, to many people, only serves to honor white supremacy rather than serves as a sobering reminder of our history. But there has to be a better way.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Don't you have a lot of modern television to consume?
Tom
Oh, yes.
Today I tried The Leftovers....3 episodes....not thrilled.
So I googled the series to see what it was all about.
Twern't about nuthin other than 2% of people disappearing.
That's it.....no resolution....nothing interesting.
Gave up on it.
And I've a high tolerance for weird meandering mystery.
I'm keeping up with the Twin Peaks reboot.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
... in that the North wanted to abolish slavery in the South.
I can understand why a Canadian would think that.
But it isn't really true. Northerner people didn't much care about slavery, certainly not enough to die for the Cause, as a general thing.

Ending slavery had about as much to do with the War Between the States as democracy had to do with the Invasion of Iraq.
Tom
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I can understand why a Canadian would think that.
But it isn't really true. Northerner people didn't much care about slavery, certainly not enough to die for the Cause, as a general thing.

Ending slavery had about as much to do with the War Between the States as democracy had to do with the Invasion of Iraq.
Tom
I don't know where such myths come from.
Perhaps hatred of Lincoln cuz he makes Repblicans look good compared to Dems?
Here, read this....
https://www.nps.gov/liho/planyourvisit/upload/cw_slavery_site_bulletin.pdf

A fun excerpt.....
The new [Confederate] constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution — African slavery as it exists amongst us — the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution . . . The prevailing ideas entertained by . . . most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politica . . . Those id the equality of races. This was an error...

Alexander H. Stephens, March 21, 1861, reported in the Savannah Republican, emphasis in the original.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What are your thoughts about the bible's instructions regarding the sale and discipline of slaves?

My thoughts? That was a different time, and those "instructions" were written by a person or persons from that time. Back then it was part of, well, everywhere. It was still wrong. And hopefully we continue to put a lot of distance between us and that shameful practice from the past.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Roses....the poodles of the plant world.....ew!
My roses are far too sophisticated for your palate, no doubt.:p

In my "jungle", I also use quite a bit of lavender, creeping phlox, Asiatic lilies, day-lilies, perennial dianthus, plus myriads of low-growing shrubs.

I do mix hostas with some types of sedum though....both shade & sun tolerant.
You know I have two places, and what I plant in my summer place has to be quite different than what I plant near Detroit. Up here, our soil is very sandy, rocky, and acidic with a very short growing season. At my place near Detroit, my soil is very alkaline but with very good topsoil that drains very slowly, matched with also a much longer growing season.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
My roses are far too sophisticated for your palate, no doubt.:p

In my "jungle", I also use quite a bit of lavender, creeping phlox, Asiatic lilies, day-lilies, perennial dianthus, plus myriads of low-growing shrubs.

You know I have two places, and what I plant in my summer place has to be quite different than what I plant near Detroit. Up here, our soil is very sandy, rocky, and acidic with a very short growing season. At my place near Detroit, my soil is very alkaline but with very good topsoil that drains very slowly, matched with also a much longer growing season.
I remember Al Kaline.
But I never cared for baseball.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
... in that the North wanted to abolish slavery in the South.

Really just the straw, so to speak...

The entire southern economy was dependent on the slaves, but those slaves also fed the north. :D

Basically, the north declared war by threatening to rob the entire region of it's livelihood. It's hard to lay blame that simply...
 
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