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Bible Discrepancies

linwood

Well-Known Member
Concerning the earlier post about Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:24..
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

It looks to me as if it was directly plagiarised from psalms 22:1
[[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?

Am I correct in this assumption or is there more to it than that?
Am I missing something?
http://www.jcsm.org/StudyCenter/kjvstrongs/STRHEB75.htm#S7581
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
"Plagiaism" is the wrong term. The Tanach did not originally come complete titles and chapter breaks. It would not be at all unusual for someone to quote the first few words of a psalm as a means of referencing it. Those who were attempting to sell their messianic cult to an initially Jewish audiance contrived the reference as prooftext.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Deut. 32.8 said:
"Plagiaism" is the wrong term. The Tanach did not originally come complete titles and chapter breaks. It would not be at all unusual for someone to quote the first few words of a psalm as a means of referencing it. Those who were attempting to sell their messianic cult to an initially Jewish audiance contrived the reference as prooftext.
You`re right Deut. it is the wrong term.
Thanks for pointing towards Psalms.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Exodus 20:5
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

Ezekeil 18:19
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Does God punish the child for the sin of the father or not?
which is it?



Two things to point out,

Exodus 20:5 has a clause, "them that hate me".

and

the word translated as iniquity('avon) means both the iniquity and the consequences or punishment of iniquity. I, as I will state everytime, am not a hebraic scholar, so this could be wrong, believe that it might mean that in a lineage that hates the Lord sin(iniquity) will be passed on, but the Lord will not punish you for your father's sin nor will you be punished for your son's sin.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Exodus 20:5 has a clause, "them that hate me".
I don`t see how that matters.
God is visiting the "inequity" of those who "hate" him unto that persons descendents.
It doesn`t state that the descendents also hate him.

Original sin is evidence of this.

the word translated as iniquity('avon) means both the iniquity and the consequences or punishment of iniquity. I, as I will state everytime, am not a hebraic scholar, so this could be wrong, believe that it might mean that in a lineage that hates the Lord sin(iniquity) will be passed on,
Sure it might mean that ..or any number of other things but thats not what it says.

It doesn`t say the Haters descendents hate also.

`avon
aw-vone'
or oavown (2 Kings 7:9; Psalm 51:5 (7)) {aw-vone'}; from '`avah' (5753); perversity, i.e. (moral) evil:--fault, iniquity, mischeif, punishment (of iniquity), sin.
 

true blood

Active Member
linwood said:
It doesn`t say the Haters descendents hate also.QUOTE]

It doesn't say they do not. That clause "them that hate me" is like "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost". It suggest that there are people who know God or know the truth and hate it/him. I think it deals mostly with those who side with the adversary with purpose while having the knowledge of the truth. Bad people. Ezek. seems to be a general statement.
Exodus seems to focus on a specific type of person who's seed is of the adversary. Even if I'm wrong I do not see how this could be considered a contridiction. If in Exodus God says "this is how it will be" then, insert time element, God changes "how it will be" to whatever He wishes. Are you suggesting that a real living God does not have the power to change things? Is not Ezek several generations after Exodus? I think this so called contridiction doesn't hold much weight. Perhaps if both passages happened in the exact same time element, then yes, but its like you're saying, for example, my favorite movie is the Matrix and then a year from then you state your favorite movie is the LoTR. Do you consider this a contridiction or just a living change?
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
true blood said:
linwood said:
It doesn`t say the Haters descendents hate also.QUOTE]

It doesn't say they do not.
So now we are to determine our belief in God based upon what the Bible DOESN`T say?
Where does it end?

Are you suggesting that a real living God does not have the power to change things? Is not Ezek several generations after Exodus?
I agree Trueblood, to an extent.
But once again my argument is not with you considering you have no problem believing even God can change .
I would wish half the Christians that populated this Earth had the same insight yet they do not.

Thats where my problem lies.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Sure it might mean that ..or any number of other things but thats not what it says.

It doesn`t say the Haters descendents hate also.
Ok, it does not say that the line hates the Lord, but I will stand by my statement that it can be interpreted differently than the KJV, such as The Message(MSG)

Exodus 20:5
Don't bow down to them and don't serve them because I am GOD your God, and I'm a most jealous God, punishing the children for any sins their parents pass on to them to the third, and yes, even to the fourth generation of those who hate me.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sins is the soul that dies. The child does not share the guilt of the parent, nor the parent the guilt of the child. If you live upright and well, you get the credit; if you live a wicked life, you're guilty as charged.
But once again my argument is not with you considering you have no problem believing even God can change .
I would wish half the Christians that populated this Earth had the same insight yet they do not.

Thats where my problem lies.
I do not believe the Lord changes, I know there is a Bible verse that says something to this effect, I just can't find it.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Emu,

Your two translations say the same as the KJV with different words.

There`s not difference in content
I do not believe the Lord changes, I know there is a Bible verse that says something to this effect, I just can't find it.
"Jesus loves me..this I know....
`cause my Bible tells me soooooooooooo"
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Well Linwood,

Your two translations say the same as the KJV with different words.
I was under the impression that you thought there was a contradiction within the Bible based on the KJV using the word iniquity for both passages, and thus in one instance the Lord said iniquity can be passed down and in another He says it doesn't get passed down, for these verses The Message(MSG) corresponds with what I believe, that the two passages refer to two different things.

I am sorry if I was mistaken.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
You were not mistaken I do believe it is a contradiction as you stated.
I don`t see any signifigant difference between the KJV version and what you posted.

for these verses The Message(MSG) corresponds with what I believe, that the two passages refer to two different things.
I don`t doubt thats what you beleive, it is not however what the verses say.

:)
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
I don`t doubt thats what you beleive, it is not however what the verses say.
There is a difference, Sin can be passed on, however you will not be punished for someone else's sin
And this is what The Message versions says as well.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Are we reading the same verse?

Don't bow down to them and don't serve them because I am GOD your God, and I'm a most jealous God, punishing the children for any sins their parents pass on to them to the third, and yes, even to the fourth generation of those who hate me.
That appears to say you are punished for your fathers sins..
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
That appears to say you are punished for your fathers sins..
If you look closely, they are getting punished for the sins "parents pass on to them" meaning(to me) that the sin is being done by the generation that it is being passed on to.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Mr.Emu,

You almost threw me for a moment.

When I read the translation of Exodus you posted I did indeed skim over it because truthfully I have read most of the accepted versions of it ..even recently.

When prompted to "read Closely" I noticed the wording was nothing I`d seen and couldn`t figure where it came from so I re-traced this thread and noticed it is from "The Message" Bible. (I had intitially thought you were refering to the actual "message" of the verse but now I see it is a Bible.

The message is not a translation of the Bible it is one pastors paraphrasing of the NT.
He himself states it is paraphrasing and wrote it because.." I kept asking myself, if Isaiah or John were writing what they wrote for these people I am living with, how would they say it?"

How would they say it in English?

How does Peterson have a clue as to how they would say it in English considering he doesn`t know who "They" are, "They" didn`t speak English, and "They" are dead hundreds of years dead.

One mans paraphrasing of a book may very well make a book more readable and lord knows the Bible can use a bit more readability and I offer kudos to Mr.Peterson for doing so .
But
There should ne a huge disclaimer on every one of these "interpretations" warning what it really is so as not to mislead anyone.

The first link below has a link to The Message online, just start reading anywhere and you`ll see the liberties taken with the text are far to liberal to be taken as Biblical verse.

Petersons Bible is the only one to use this "Pass On to Them" nonsense.
he`s clearly taking liberties .
The original Greek no where says anything even close to this.

KJV
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

The Message
Don't bow down to them and don't serve them because I am GOD your God, and I'm a most jealous God, punishing the children for any sins their parents pass on to them to the third, and yes, even to the fourth generation of those who hate me.
It`s amazing to me how Gods word becomes so pliable for a Christian when it suits their purpose but it`s engraved in stone when they deem it to be.
If thats the best you`ve got Mr.Emu...:banghead3

The original verse stands as it was written.
You are indeed punished for the sins of your forefathers for at least 3-4 generations in Exodus 20:5.

But then it is contradicted in Ezekeil 18:19 and you are not punished for the sins of your forefathers.

It is a direct contradiction.


http://beta.biblegateway.com/versions/index.php?action=getVersionInfo&vid=65&lang=2
http://www.atu2.com/news/connections/peterson/
http://www.navpress.com/BibleProducts/
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
The Contradiction of the Day

The Pentateuch

The Pentateuch consists of the first five books of the Old Testament.

Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy

It is commonly accepted by Christians that The Pentateuch was written by Moses.
This belief is supported by scripture elsewhere in the Bible .
1 Kings 2:3
2 Kings 14:6
2 Kings 21:8
Ezra 6:18
Daniel 9:11
Mark 12:26
Luke 16:29
The above verses are just a sampling of the support offered in both the OT & the NT, there are many more.

However, if Moses were the author of the Pentateuch how could he write this ?
Deuteronomy 34:5-10
So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
And Moses [was] an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.
And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping [and] mourning for Moses were ended.
And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses.
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
How could Moses know how old he would be when he died?
How could Moses know where he was buried?
How could he know his grave would never be found?
How could he know his people mourned for 30 days?
How could he know no other would ever see the face of God?
Who writes an account of their own funeral?
How did he know what Joshua commanded the Isrealites?
Even if he was in heaven and did know all of this, how did he write it all down?

He was dead.
Dead people don`t write
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
linwood said:
The Contradiction of the Day It is commonly accepted by Christians that The Pentateuch was written by Moses ...
An ignorant misconception is not an internal contradiction. You're stretching ...
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
An ignorant misconception is not an internal contradiction. You're stretching ...
Ignorant misconception is what I wish to dispel.
Yes I`m stretching

Exodus 17:14
And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this [for] a memorial in a book, and rehearse [it] in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.
Deut.31:24-
And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
John 5:46-47
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 7:19
Did not Moses give you the law, and [yet] none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
All the above and dozens of other verses show support for Moses writing "The Book of the Law" The Pentateuch.
However no scripture I can find states that Moses wrote ALL of the Pentetauch, that is where I`m stretching.
It is generally agreed by Biblical scholars that the books writers are unknown.
This is not however in agreement with mainstream Christianitys "ignorant misconception."
 

true blood

Active Member
linwood said:
The Contradiction of the day.

Exodus 20:5
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

Ezekeil 18:19
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Does God punish the child for the sin of the father or not?
which is it?
Exodus was specifically given to the tribes of Israel. The verse does not effect anyone outside of the tribes. This law wasn't permanent either. Even the wording "visit the sins unto the forth generation" could suggest a period of time that would come when God would stop the visits. Ezekeil is merely a general statement. To me it doesn't even sound like a law at all but a general statement for all of mankind. The law you stated in Exodus was specifically given to Israel and Ezekeil is a general state of the human race. Because of sin, there is death. The righteousness of the righteous is the knowledge of good, and the wickedness of the wicked is the knowledge of evil.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
The verse does not effect anyone outside of the tribes. This law wasn't permanent either. Even the wording "visit the sins unto the forth generation" could suggest a period of time that would come when God would stop the visits. Ezekeil is merely a general statement.
It doesn`t matter TrueBlood, remember my only purpose with these contradictions is to prove the errancy of the Bible.
To Christians who hold the Bible as inerrant every word of it is from God and therefore law.

This contradiction shows them at the very least that God didn`t put forth a perfect work in the Bible.
 
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