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How are these Great Beings explained?

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So now what are you saying? That the Burning Bush was symbolic, and Baha'u'llah symbolically spoke through it?

Have you read how Baha'u'llah got His Message in Prsion?

Now if I wrote that down to take it literal in a few thousand years, it woud be some story.

Have a read and then compare the vision Moses had, and Jesus had and Muhammad had.

Consider the dream world where we see without eyes.

Regards Tony
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
...No, we were not talking about Christian Faith. Remember, we were talking about Issac and Ishmael. This belief was not in the Christian faith. It was in Jewish Bible...
Wrong. James 2:21 NIV "Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?"

Hebrews 11:17 NIV "By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac on the altar. He who had received the promises was ready to offer his one and only son.."

So now you have an alleged mistake being carried over into the NT. Somebody's got some explaining to do.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
True. But I personally have no reason to doubt it either. With the hard-set minds I've seen, it would be difficult to come to compromise if either person, fro example, expressed any doubts about infallibility or other dogma. Divorce isn't easy in Hinduism either, for similar reasons. Baha'i' statistics are incredibly difficult to figure, for lots of reasons. The small number makes it so it may not even be on the charts of major researchers, there is a tendency to really downplay or altogether ignore any negatives, and more. But I digress. Certainly I've never sen any studies to the contrary either. Lots of claims, but no actual studies.
Baha'is have to get their governing body to okay the divorce. They know how many divorces are happening.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Have you read how Baha'u'llah got His Message in Prsion?

Now if I wrote that down to take it literal in a few thiusand years, it woud be some story.

Have a read and then compare the vision Moses had, and Jesus had and Muhammad had.

Consider the dream world where we see without eyes.

Regards Tony
Do you have the link for Baha'u'llah's? And which "vision" or dream of Moses and Jesus are you talking about?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So now what are you saying? That the Burning Bush was symbolic, and Baha'u'llah symbolically spoke through it?

I am saying the world if the Spirit is vastly different and has no explanation in this world.

Thus language is used to give a message in picture form to give some understanding of what is experienced.

There are a myriad meanings in a Burning bush when it comes to spiritual understanding. In my feeble attempt at one thought, I can see the fire of Gods Love comsuming all Faiths gone before represented by a tree with its many branches all giving light to the new Message Moses will be given.

We have to also know that many things in the the past were known by symbolism as well. In fact Numerology was used to convey many a meaning in one sentance. One could read what was said at face value, but in Numerical values of letters another message was told.

There is good reason why Gods Word is given in such a way.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
That is what I said. :) He was the only one left with Abraham.

However, Abraham did throw Hagar and Ishmael into the desert.

Gen 21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.

Gen 21:15 And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.

Gen 21:16 And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bowshot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept.

Gen 21:17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.

Gen 21:18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.

Gen 21:19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.

Gen 21:20 And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.

Gen 21:21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.

So according to the story Ishmael was long gone, and only Isaac was there to be sacrificed by Abraham.

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I already asked this in another post to someone, maybe one of the Baha'is, I don't remember, but why in God's name would some scribe change all these verses and the ones about Isaac? And why would his changes get copied by other scribes? And why would they do this hundreds of years before Islam ever got invented? Too strange.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do you have the link for Baha'u'llah's? And which "vision" or dream of Moses and Jesus are you talking about?

"...While engulfed in tribulations I heard a most wondrous, a most sweet voice, calling above My head. Turning My face, I beheld a Maiden — the embodiment of the remembrance of the name of My Lord — suspended in the air before Me…. She was imparting to both My inward and outer being tidings which rejoiced My soul, and the souls of God’s honored servants. Pointing with her finger unto My head, she addressed all who are in heaven and all who are on earth, saying: “By God! This is the Best-Beloved of the worlds, and yet ye comprehend not. This is the Beauty of God amongst you, and the power of His sovereignty within you, could ye but understand. This is the Mystery of God and His Treasure, the Cause of God and His glory unto all who are in the kingdoms of Revelation and of creation, if ye be of them that perceive."

Moses was that of the Burning Bush, Christ was of the Dove and Muhamad was in the cave with the Angel Gabriel.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, to confuse me.

If you are yet to read the Kitabi-iqan, then I highly recommend it. It explains the whole unfolding of God and His Faiths.

". . . the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, his servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: ‘Do men think when they say “We believe” they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?" (Bahá’u’lláh, Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 8-9.)

Regards Tony
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
This is a link to a Blog from Susan. I find her articles are well balanced and they qive applicable guidance on the subject.

Considering Divorce? Read this First!

Regards Tony

Hello.......
I read some of the link, up to about here:-
As a Baha’i, the only reason a divorce can be granted is if one or both parties feel aversion.

The sentence above was supported by the UHJ. There are many statements by the UHJ, Shoghi Effendi and Abdul Baha which at some distant time, in a Bahai World, would become the foundation of civil and criminal laws.

There's the terror of it all, hidden in the mists of some distant future, when a sentence will become a doctrine, and then on to dogma.

When I first knew Bahai it was moderately free; Bahais quoted Kahlil Gibran, spoke of Bahai Miracles and the faith looked like spiritual freedom, moderation, a sweet way of life. But as the translations 'came through' so one could begin to perceive what a 'Bahai World' would really be like.

The death penalties, the military enforcement, equality imprisoned, and the whole theocracy holding the world in a condition of 'lock down'.

In a Bahai World, couples would not know each other when they married after a lightning engagement, and in the glaring truth of serious error, divorce would become a nightmare.

Extend this sweet, benign, ok, lovely religion into a Bahai World, and that's when the veils are ripped away.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
It is obvious from the writings, - and I have actually read many of the books, - that this "equality" stops at - MEN - are in charge, and women are supposed to perform traditional rolls, - And accept man as in charge of the family, and church.

Again - no true equality.

Actually women are in charge of their own lives, not men, religious leaders or anyone else. How we conduct ourselves is between ourselves and God.

Much of what happens in Baha'i communities rests with individuals and groups.

By "Balance" - Baha'i still mean women popping out babies and raising them, and men being in charge.

So - I guess - you can be a congresswomen, - as long as you have popped out babies and raised them first, - and then get permission from your master/husband to now pursue YOUR dreams.

Women don't have to have babies or engage in traditional roles if they don't want to.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
No Baha'i gets these ideas from the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

I do not see what you suggest is being said.

That is because one has to consider what you are thinking is not being said by what you extract in a quote :D

It would be great Injustice to Tahirih the Pure if any Baha'i would think in this manner.

Equality of station is true Equality, not sameness. What is best for a child long term if of the most great importance, our future depends upon this.

There is no head or hirachy in the Baha'i Faith. There is no Ambition to serve in any capacity but to contribute in a way that God guides us to do. To do this, there is no self, no thought of inequality. We do what must be done.

Regards Tony

Did you misread something there?

When I read that "Equality of station is true Equality, not sameness," I thought it is like telling someone GOD wants them to be a poop digger, - and then you claim the poop diggers "station" is equal to the president's "station" but it obviously isn't just because you say it is. You folks want her to stay a poop digger while you rule in your "station," and call that equality.

Equality of - "station," - is not equality.

No forced - "station," - is equality.

The idea that there is no hierarchy in Baha'i religion is baloney. Women are not allowed at the governing top.

"The Universal House of Justice is the international governing council of the Bahá’í Faith. Bahá’u’lláh ordained the creation of this institution in His book of laws, the Kitáb-i-Aqdas." The Universal House of Justice | What Bahá’ís Believe

And women aren't allowed to be in it.

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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Actually women are in charge of their own lives, not men, religious leaders or anyone else. How we conduct ourselves is between ourselves and God.

Much of what happens in Baha'i communities rests with individuals and groups.

Women don't have to have babies or engage in traditional roles if they don't want to.

You're funny. You know very well that is what your religion teaches. And I have shown the verses.

Obviously in modern countries women can't be forced into these rolls, but your religion , like all patriarchal religions, teaches that for perfection and to reach God's place, that is what is expected. Compliance through fear of offending God. Just as with Christians and Hell if you don't comply.

*
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In a Bahai World, couples would not know each other when they married after a lightning engagement, and in the glaring truth of serious error, divorce would become a nightmare.

What you have not considered is that they can know each other for years before they decide to marry and make an engagement. It is after the engagement that the marriage must be within 90 days.

Now Baha'u'llah has advised that each must get to know each other as good as they can before they make a commitment. Also consider it is chastity before marriage.

Thus once the couple have come fully aquainted with each others hopes dreams and character, are compatiable are in Love, they then make the commitment. Why would they then want to wait for more than 90 days for that great day when two become One.

There is no real problem with any of Baha'u'llahs laws when the wisdom is found and how they addresses modern day issues, many that are the cause of marriage breakdowns.

Also consider many people are Married before they find Baha'u'llah and it mostly takes time for each if them to find the wisdom of the laws.

It can be that one partner become quite antogonistic to a new found faith.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
You're funny. You know very well that is what your religion teaches. And I have shown the verses.

It is correct that I know very well what my religion teaches.

Obviously in modern countries women can't be forced into these rolls, but your religion , like all patriarchal religions, teaches that for perfection and to reach God's place, that is what is expected. Compliance through fear of offending God. Just as with Christians and Hell if you don't comply.

I don't think so.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I already asked this in another post to someone, maybe one of the Baha'is, I don't remember, but why in God's name would some scribe change all these verses and the ones about Isaac? And why would his changes get copied by other scribes? And why would they do this hundreds of years before Islam ever got invented? Too strange.

Indeed they wouldn't.

If it has been changed, it is on the Muslim side, - and for their purposes.

*
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The idea that there is no hierarchy in Baha'i religion is baloney. Women are not allowed at the governing top.

"The Universal House of Justice is the international governing council of the Bahá’í Faith. Bahá’u’lláh ordained the creation of this institution in His book of laws, the Kitáb-i-Aqdas." The Universal House of Justice | What Bahá’ís Believe
And women aren't allowed to be in it.*

Personally I would thank Baha'u'llah many times over for being exempt in service on the Universal House of Justice.

As there is no Ambition to serve on this elected body of people, it is only a world that thrives on ambition that would have an issue with this.

Ambition is not a virtue that would raise one vote for a person to this Institution.

Regards Tony
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
It is correct that I know very well what my religion teaches.

Ingledsva said:
Obviously in modern countries women can't be forced into these rolls, but your religion , like all patriarchal religions, teaches that for perfection and to reach God's place, that is what is expected. Compliance through fear of offending God. Just as with Christians and Hell if you don't comply.

I don't think so.

It doesn't matter that you don't think so. We have the writings.

"O Handmaids of the All-Sufficing God!

Exert yourselves, that haply ye may be enabled to acquire such virtues as shall honor and distinguish you amongst all women. Of a surety, there is no greater pride and glory for a woman than to be a handmaid in God’s Court of Grandeur; and the qualities that shall merit her this station are an alert and wakeful heart; a firm conviction of the unity of God, the Peerless; a heartfelt love for all His maidservants; spotless purity and chastity; obedience to and consideration for her husband; attention to the education and nurturing of her children; composure, calmness, dignity and self-possession; diligence in praising God, and worshiping Him both night and day; constancy and firmness in His holy Covenant; and the utmost ardor, enthusiasm, and attachment to His Cause.…"

*
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
LOL! Unless the HUSBAND says NO! That is lack of true equality.

AGAIN - only until the HUSBAND says differently. And you know this is a FACT in your religion.

If you say so. I've been a Baha'i 27 years, and a husband 17 years so I must be missing something.

"As to thy respected husband: it is incumbent upon thee to treat him with great kindness, to consider his wishes and be conciliatory with him at all times, till he seeth that because thou hast directed thyself toward the Kingdom of God, thy tenderness for him and thy love for God have but increased, as well as thy concern for his wishes under all conditions."
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá: Selected Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 122)

Let's have another go at putting the above verse it in context. You have misunderstood it.

748. Keys to Strengthening of Family
"The relationship between husband and wife must be viewed in the context of the Bahá’í ideal of family life. Bahá’u’lláh came to bring unity to the world, and a fundamental unity is that of the family. Therefore, one must believe that the Faith is intended to strengthen the family, not weaken it, and one of the keys to the strengthening of unity is loving consultation. The atmosphere within a Bahá’í family as within the community as a whole should express 'the keynote of the Cause of God' which, the beloved Guardian has stated, 'is not dictatorial authority but humble fellowship, not arbitrary power, but the spirit of frank and loving consultation.'"
(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of New Zealand, December 28, 1980)

749. Honour and Privilege Ordained for Women: Obedience to Husbands
"It is in this context of mutual and complementary duties and responsibilities that one should read the Tablet in which ‘Abdu’l-Bahá gives the following exhortation:

'O Handmaids of the Self-Sustaining Lord! Exert your efforts so that you may attain the honour and privilege ordained for women. Undoubtedly the greatest glory of women is servitude at His Threshold and submissiveness at His door; it is the possession of a vigilant heart, and praise of the incomparable God; it is heartfelt love towards other handmaids and spotless chastity; it is obedience to and consideration for their husbands and the education and care of their children; and it is tranquillity, and dignity, perseverance in the remembrance of the Lord, and the utmost enkindlement and attraction.' "
(Ibid.)

750. Domination by Husband or Wife not Right
"This exhortation to the utmost degree of spirituality and self-abnegation should not be read as a legal definition giving the husband absolute authority over his wife, for, in a letter written to an individual believer on 22th July 1943, the beloved Guardian's secretary wrote on his behalf:

'The Guardian, in his remarksabout parents and children, wives and husbands' relations in America meant that there is a tendency in that country for children to be too independent of the wishes of their parents and lacking in the respect due to them. Also wives, in some cases, have a tendency to exert an unjust degree of domination over their husbands which, of course, is not right, anymore than that the husband should unjustly dominate his wife.' "
(Ibid.)

751. Time When Wife Should Defer to Husband and Time When Husband Should Defer to Wife
"In any group, however loving the consultation, there are nevertheless points on which, from time to time, agreement cannot be reached. In a Spiritual Assembly this dilemma is resolved by a majority vote. There can, however, be no majority where only two parties are involved, as in the case of a husband and wife. There are, therefore, times when a wife should defer to her husband, and times when a husband should defer to his wife, but neither should ever unjustly dominate the other. In short, the relationship between husband and wife should be as held forth in the prayer revealed by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá which is often read at Bahá’í weddings: 'Verily they are married in obedience to Thy command. Cause them to become the signs of harmony and unity until the end of time.*' "
(Ibid.)
*(Bahá’í Prayers, p. 107, 1982 ed.)

752. In Tablet of the World Women and Men Envisaged as Breadwinners
"In the Tablet of the World, Bahá’u’lláh Himself has envisaged that women as well as men would be breadwinners in stating:

'Everyone, whether man or woman, should hand over to a trusted person a portion of what he or she earneth through trade, agriculture or other occupation, for the training and education of children, to be spent for this purpose with the knowledge of the Trustees of the House of Justice.'"
("Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas", p. 90)
"A very important element in the attainment of such equality is Bahá’u’lláh's provision that boys and girls must follow essentially the same curriculum in schools."
(Ibid.)

753. Love Between Husband and Wife
"The friends of God must so live and conduct themselves and evince such excellence of character and conduct, as to make others astonished. The love between husband and wife should not be purely physical, nay rather it must be spiritual and heavenly. These two souls should be considered as one soul. How difficult it would be to divide a single soul! Nay, great would be the difficulty!

"In short, the foundation of the Kingdom of God is based upon harmony and love, oneness, relationship and union, not upon differences, especially between husband and wife."
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá: Family Life, A Compilation of the Universal House of Justice)


Did you miss that the verse said two wives?

God hath prescribed matrimony unto you. Beware that ye take not unto yourselves more wives than two. Whoso contenteth himself with a single partner from among the maidservants of God, both he and she shall live in tranquillity. And he who would take into his service a maid may do so with propriety [He who takes a virgin to serve him it would be permissible for him]1142
Bahā’u’llāh, The Kitābi Aqdas, p. 41.

No I didn't miss the verses about two wives. I provided the writings that informs you why this is no longer applicable anywhere.

This is thought to come from this Quran verse -

"And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course.

By the way "what your right hand possesses" is a term for slaves = sex slaves.

I don't know why you are quoting from the Quran. Baha'is are not Muslims, and what Muhammad revealed was 1,400 years ago when the conditions of society were very different from what they are today.

Concerning bigamy, this has been promulgated, and no one must abrogate it.Abdu’l-Baha has not abrogated this law. These are false accusations and lies (spread by) the friends. What I have said is that He has made bigamy bound on a precondition. As long as someone does not attain certitude regarding the capability to practice justice and his heart is not at rest that he can practice justice, he should not be intent upon a second marriage. But if he should be sure and attain certitude that he would practice justice on all levels (and conditions), then a second marriage is lawful. ... [ibid. Volume 4, p. 174]

Apparently Baha'i wives aren't even spiritually awakened - unlike their husbands.

This is not an authorised translation of the Baha'i writings.

According to Baha'i - If a family has a husband, wife, and two children - a son and a daughter, and the husband dies, the wife is scr**ed. She does not get the house. It doesn't get split between the children either. It goes to the MALE child. Thus patriarchy, for thousands of years, has made it hard for women to climb out of housewifery, and male control.

Baha'i men and women are free to write their wills as they see fit.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Personally I would thank Baha'u'llah many times over for being exempt in service on the Universal House of Justice.

As there is no Ambition to serve on this elected body of people, it is only a world that thrives on ambition that would have an issue with this.

Ambition is not a virtue that would raise one vote for a person to this Institution.

Regards Tony

Spoken like a male - whom can be in those governing bodies.

Deflection from lack of equality by women not being allowed, - to it's ambition which is not a virtue.

I guess all those men in the governing body have no virtue.

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