Jesus without baggage

Saint Frankenstein said:

@Deidre, do you just feel good religion or to be challenged, to grow, to struggle and grapple with things, to develop discipline?

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You essentially summed up my opposition to Protestantianity in one sentence. I am making a thread quoting you on this.

Deidre said:

There's been dispute that this wasn't really 'written' by the Apostle Thomas, what do you think? This is what I mean by the corruption of men when it came to what was to be a part of the Bible and what wasn't. Thomas and John were always my favorites. lol

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FYI did you know that none of the works of of Socrates are not credited to him at all. He literally may have never written a single thing and the same goes for Pythagoras yet we see their work everyday in philosophy and geometry.

In antiquity the existence of a character was never even relevant in so much as the content of the work was relevant. This is why you have the notion of kings being divinely appointed and authority being established through establishing a 3rd party source of credibility like religion or studying under a master.

Deidre said:

There's been dispute that this wasn't really 'written' by the Apostle Thomas, what do you think? This is what I mean by the corruption of men when it came to what was to be a part of the Bible and what wasn't. Thomas and John were always my favorites. lol

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From my own research, 'Thomas' originated in Plutarch, also known as Thamus, itself from Plato

Plutarch writes that during the reign of Tiberius Caesar (14AD - 37AD) , an Egyptian pilot, Thamus, sailing to Italy, was called by a strange voice, which cried out to him: "Thamus, when you reach Palodes, tell them that the great god Pan is dead!" Following certain? portents, Thamus did as he was told; Plutarch writes that a great lamentation rose from the shore at this news.

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Plutarch adapted Thamus from Plato, an Egyptian King known as 'Dudimose'

John 11:16 ( What's an Egyptian King doing here ? )
Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus,

There is also Apollonius of Tyana, his saying were written down by 'Damis'
and Paul had a disciple called 'Demas'

I am not sure yet what to conclude, maybe he was Plutarch

Sha'irullah said:

FYI did you know that none of the works of of Socrates are not credited to him at all. He literally may have never written a single thing and the same goes for Pythagoras yet we see their work everyday in philosophy and geometry.

In antiquity the existence of a character was never even relevant in so much as the content of the work was relevant. This is why you have the notion of kings being divinely appointed and authority being established through establishing a 3rd party source of credibility like religion or studying under a master.

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Your hiatus made you quite smart, Sha. I'm impressed. I think you're right.

Sha'irullah said:

To me one of the beauties of religion is the mythology itself and its meaning. The Bible has lost much of this and resorted to esoteric fables that exceed any practical comprehension. This has been my massive gripe with it and also what led me toward Islam eventually. Ironically what makes Islam more valid is its lack of significant miracles and not an abundance thereof.

The belief in the actually events of the Bible is incredibly dangerous and makes the religion highly invalid. You would be astonished by how ancient cultures did not have a concept of fiction or nonfiction though. Many African tribes hold this view still which is why they have all sorts of spirits and other beings in their beliefs. It is a mere lack of skepticism and critical thinking obviously.

This does not change the meaning of the mythos though.

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These are good points, why is it necessary to not apply critical thinking to the Bible, I've wondered. The link that I posted, the website caught my eye because here is someone who loves Jesus, follows Jesus, understands who he was, but doesn't believe that the whole of the Bible or believing that it is the inerrant word of God, is necessary. I don't understand why that could be a problem for some ''Bible believing'' Christians?

Magus said:

From my own research, 'Thomas' originated in Plutarch, also known as Thamus, itself from Plato



Plutarch adapted Thamus from Plato, an Egyptian King known as 'Dudimose'

John 11:16 ( What's an Egyptian King doing here ? )
Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus,

There is also Apollonius of Tyana, his saying were written down by 'Damis'
and Paul had a disciple called 'Demas'

I am not sure yet what to conclude, maybe he was Plutarch

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I conclude that there was a reason they left the Gospel of Thomas out of the Bible. I don't know why, but seeing that it's speculated that it could have come before the four Gospels that were included in the Bible, there had to be a reason.

Deidre said:

These are good points, why is it necessary to not apply critical thinking to the Bible, I've wondered. The link that I posted, the website caught my eye because here is someone who loves Jesus, follows Jesus, understands who he was, but doesn't believe that the whole of the Bible or believing that it is the inerrant word of God, is necessary. I don't understand why that could be a problem for some ''Bible believing'' Christians?

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I am not as familiar with the Bible as I am Christianity but with my knowledge of Arabic it allows me to go for days on the Qur'an and how it authorizes the most silliest things. These books are written by ancient people and should remain that way, nobody knows what drugs they were on when writing it yet alone the sociopolitical climate.

So we are as clueless as anyone else as to what these people were writing about. Not even potheads write the kinds of things you find in these "holy" texts so the mere notion of thee works of literature being divinely inspired or even authored is nonsense and under great scrutiny.

If you wish to be a Catholic, read Aquinas, Anselm and Abelard and gloss over the Bible because the true prophets of these religions are the actual theologians not the ramblings of old Jews doped on opiates who didn't know the earth revolved around the sun.

I know I am being harsh on these people but I also wish to be blunt and straightforward about the level of craziness it takes to think the Bible is coherent in every possible way. It can range from common sense, to logical to outright Hitleresque-genocidal-crazy. Many people wrote the Bile and it shows, a lot.

Sha'irullah said:

I am not as familiar with the Bible as I am Christianity but with my knowledge of Arabic it allows me to go for days on the Qur'an and how it authorizes the most silliest things. These books are written by ancient people and should remain that way, nobody knows what drugs they were on when writing it yet alone the sociopolitical climate.

So we are as clueless as anyone else as to what these people were writing about. Not even potheads write the kinds of things you find in these "holy" texts so the mere notion of thee works of literature being divinely inspired or even authored is nonsense and under great scrutiny.

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lol very true.

If you wish to be a Catholic,

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Nooooo, that ship has sailed. And sunk. lol I will never ever return to the Catholic Church. I've taken some good things away, but their dogma, I don't believe it stems from Jesus. Just my opinion.

I know I am being harsh on these people but I also wish to be blunt and straightforward about the level of craziness it takes to think the Bible is coherent in every possible way. It can range from common sense, to logical to outright Hitleresque-genocidal-crazy. Many people wrote the Bile and it shows, a lot.

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Amen. But, what is also worrisome to consider - could those people have actually perceived a god to be like they describe? The idea that Jesus actually existed is a relief to the audacity that the OT has to imply that such a tyrannical God should be worshiped. Something to consider, these ancient people honestly did nothing all day but procreate, take care of their farms, herd animals, and ponder the world around them. They had no internet, no google search, no friends from distant other countries to chat with. They only had each other, and the surrounding communities to commiserate with, and it's not that unusual that there was a general consensus as to who or what a god might be. ''Our crops aren't growing, we need to atone for our sins and God will bring us rain.'' ''My wife can't have children, I must have done something wrong to upset God.''

On and on it goes, and then Jesus eventually comes on the scene with an entirely refreshing, new message about God.

Deidre said:

Amen. But, what is also worrisome to consider - could those people have actually perceived a god to be like they describe? The idea that Jesus actually existed is a relief to the audacity that the OT has to imply that such a tyrannical God should be worshiped. Something to consider, these ancient people honestly did nothing all day but procreate, take care of their farms, herd animals, and ponder the world around them. They had no internet, no google search, no friends from distant other countries to chat with. They only had each other, and the surrounding communities to commiserate with, and it's not that unusual that there was a general consensus as to who or what a god might be. ''Our crops aren't growing, we need to atone for our sins and God will bring us rain.'' ''My wife can't have children, I must have done something wrong to upset God.''

On and on it goes, and then Jesus eventually comes on the scene with an entirely refreshing, new message about God.

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I personally am more of a dystheist in that I do not believe a god can be morally good and maybe be more malicious than good possibly. I just do not look up to a god in hopes that morality is applicable to him/her. I learnt this from studying Islamic theology and you will notice that Satan's role in evil is very minute.

I think that deities are formulated from an understanding of the environment and the world is indifferent toward us henceforth a deity in control of it must also be indifferent toward us as well. If this deity can witness us everyday then it knows our pains and our sorrows while also placing itself in our lives. So to me I do not seek god as a safety net at all but merely to come to grips with reality and anthropomorphize what is occurring in life.

People in ancient times as you describe tried applying their humanity to the world instead of the reverse, they believed that if they cared for the world god would care for them as an extension of natural behavior. But love, sympathy and hatred are human products and are not natural things found in the cosmos. If such a god exist he/she could not hold such a feeling and would be so indifferent it would look upon us as we do dirt. This is why I always tease the concept that man can only be a servant to a deity and nothing more; Divine Serfdom.

I do not believe in somebody saving mankind, I think that is up to man and if a god truly willed our destruction then just like dirt that unwilling takes the trampling of our feet we must swallow our pride to accept our end.

I know my philosophy and theology is bleak but I do not view that way at all . I apologize if I come off as a hellfire and brimstone preacher.

@Deidre

Here is the wisdom of Solomon.....from the concluding words of Ecclesiastes 12:10-14:

"The words of the wise are like oxgoads, and their collected sayings are like firmly embedded nails; they have been given from one shepherd. 12 As for anything besides these, my son, be warned: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion to them is wearisome to the flesh.

13 The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the true God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole obligation of man. 14 For the true God will judge every deed, including every hidden thing, as to whether it is good or bad."

If we fulfill our obligation to our Creator by following his instructions, what have we got to lose?
OTOH, if we fail to fulfill that obligation, what have we got to lose?

You will notice that it is not up to us to judge what is good or bad, but God who is the final judge of that.
That issue goes back to Eden....it was never in God's purpose for man to judge what was good and what was evil...it was always God who was going to decide that. Only when humans wanted to make that decision for themselves, did the trouble begin. There has been trouble ever since. Humans are lousy at making good decisions on their own.

Deidre said:

I just might re-read the Bible, David. I thought about it earlier today. But, I don't care for Paul, to be honest. The problem I have with Romans, is that sometimes it feels like Paul is glorifying himself as he attempts to give the glory to Jesus. I've always, always felt that way, even when I was really strong in the faith.

But, he didn't always live those rules, for example, there is the story of him healing on the Sabbath, so he wasn't into legalism, either.

Okay.

What do you think about people who ''change'' but don't follow any one religion, or belief system? Do you think that without a belief in Jesus, that your life would look radically different? Just wondering.

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Christ healed on the Sabbath because it was a man made rule not to. God never said any such thing to Moses. Christ constantly told the Pharisees that their additional rules were not valid and did more harm than good.

Sure, without Jesus my life would look very different. I'm convinced I would either be dead or in prison. Seriously. I was a very evil person before Jesus changed me and I'm still a work in progress, I'm by no means exactly what Christ knows would be best for me.

Jesus is the life changer. He really is the way, the truth and the life. Religion doesn't matter; Jesus Christ is everything, He is the fulfillment of God's unending love for each one of us. Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, these are just labels. Christ is the chief cornerstone that holds the building called the church together. Religion is nothing. Christ is everything.

Deeje said:

@Deidre

Here is the wisdom of Solomon.....from the concluding words of Ecclesiastes 12:10-14:

"The words of the wise are like oxgoads, and their collected sayings are like firmly embedded nails; they have been given from one shepherd. 12 As for anything besides these, my son, be warned: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion to them is wearisome to the flesh.

13 The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the true God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole obligation of man. 14 For the true God will judge every deed, including every hidden thing, as to whether it is good or bad."

If we fulfill our obligation to our Creator by following his instructions, what have we got to lose?
OTOH, if we fail to fulfill that obligation, what have we got to lose?

You will notice that it is not up to us to judge what is good or bad, but God who is the final judge of that.
That issue goes back to Eden....it was never in God's purpose for man to judge what was good and what was evil...it was always God who was going to decide that. Only when humans wanted to make that decision for themselves, did the trouble begin. There has been trouble ever since. Humans are lousy at making good decisions on their own.

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But, going with the story, wouldn't God be responsible for creating mankind with the ability to make the decision that Adam and Eve made?

Deidre said:

But, going with the story, wouldn't God be responsible for creating mankind with the ability to make the decision that Adam and Eve made?

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That is an interesting question.
God gave the first humans free will, but kept "the knowledge of good and evil" to himself, thereby keeping it out of their reach. He knew that this knowledge was not going to benefit them in the slightest, so like any good parent, he was protecting them from the harm it would cause. Free will could then be exercised with only good results.

They should have know by the penalty, because accessing that knowledge meant death, that it was a very serious matter.

But free will was compromised because satan lied to the woman about the penalty. She got to thinking that God must have been withholding something beneficial from his children...or so it seemed by what the devil said. The woman was deceived, and ate the fruit.....but Adam wasn't. He took the fruit for an entirely different reason and was the target of satan all along. He used the woman to get to the man. The scriptures blame Adam, not the woman, for man's fall into sin and death. (Romans 5:12)

Deeje said:

That is an interesting question.
God gave the first humans free will, but kept "the knowledge of good and evil" to himself, thereby keeping it out of their reach. He knew that this knowledge was not going to benefit them in the slightest, so like any good parent, he was protecting them from the harm it would cause. Free will could then be exercised with only good results.

They should have know by the penalty, because accessing that knowledge meant death, that it was a very serious matter.

But free will was compromised because satan lied to the woman about the penalty. She got to thinking that God must have been withholding something beneficial from his children...or so it seemed by what the devil said. The woman was deceived, and ate the fruit.....but Adam wasn't. He took the fruit for an entirely different reason and was the target of satan all along. He used the woman to get to the man. The scriptures blame Adam, not the woman, for man's fall into sin and death. (Romans 5:12)

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So, imagine...again, going with the story...if we never had knowledge in this world. Is that really what was meant? Why would God want a bunch of drones worshiping him? To give us free will and expect us not to use it, while he watches his creation being tempted to use it...seems kind of twisted, no?

I know you believe the story as literal, this is where we will have to agree to disagree.

Deidre said:

So, imagine...again, going with the story...if we never had knowledge in this world. Is that really what was meant?

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It wasn't "knowledge" that was kept from them....only the ability to judge between good and evil. God placed that in his own jurisdiction. Humans had perfect minds and bodies, so that nothing they had in mind to do was impossible for them. God gave them a conscience to guide their actions and to leave that big decision to him. If he said "don't", they were wise to follow his commands. If he said "do" then it was sure to go well for them.

In Eden, there was only one rule....not a bunch of them. It wasn't hard to keep that rule and following it would only have benefited them.

Why would God want a bunch of drones worshiping him? To give us free will and expect us not to use it, while he watches his creation being tempted to use it...seems kind of twisted, no?

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Free will was meant to be a gift, but one tempered by humility and consideration for the free will of others. When humans decided that they wanted to exercise their free will in a wrong way, by disobeying their Creator, the gift then became a curse, when humans started to impose their will on others. We have been suffering at their mercy ever since. We will never be happy again until we surrender our will back to God and accept the means that he has put in place to redeem us.

God's original purpose will go ahead, with us or without us. (Isaiah 55:11) Jesus came to get us back what Adam lost.

I know you believe the story as literal, this is where we will have to agree to disagree.

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Whether you believe that it is literal or not...the story still conveys the same message.

Sure, I guess that's why Jesus summed up the law, "love your neighbor" some people like it short and sweet, others want the whole story. Bad baggage though is adding to the story, making up rules that don't exist.

Deidre said:

I found this whilst looking for something else earlier, and thought it was interesting. I've felt that my main reasons for leaving Christianity weren't that I couldn't accept Jesus as a potentially real historical figure or that I couldn't view him as a saving grace in my life, but rather the Bible and all of its outlandish stories, rules and dogma that detract from the beauty of who Jesus could be. I don't even know if the Jesus story was tainted, to be honest, by man's desire to control others through one, central religion.

Anyways, thought this was interesting, and worth sharing.

Jesus Without Baggage

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Do you really want to construct a world view from the opinions of a random internet blogger? Your disinterest in following rules is human nature, as documented in Genesis, in the beginning. I'd suggest that is the center of gravity of your viewpoint as implied in your post. Mayhaps a deeper dive on that issue will help you follow all evidences--of which you seem familiar from your background--where they really lead, not where you want them to lead.

OP. IIRC I read a Hasidic rabbi once, a female. She didn't see the bible as history, rather all the events were being played out in ones life, the exodus, the fall etc. It was like an existential dramatization of the human condition, interpreted personally.

Deidre said:

So, imagine...again, going with the story...if we never had knowledge in this world. Is that really what was meant? Why would God want a bunch of drones worshiping him? To give us free will and expect us not to use it, while he watches his creation being tempted to use it...seems kind of twisted, no?

I know you believe the story as literal, this is where we will have to agree to disagree.

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The Baha'i Writings explain the story of Adam and Eve is not to be taken literally. It is the story of the Spitlritual awakenig of man and the use of free will.

Adam is Humanity and Eve is the Soul. You can read the explanation given by Abdul'baha in 'Some Answered Questions' at this link; Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

The Bible and all the Holy books contain the Word of God which are material stories that give deep Spiritual insight. No words can describe our eternal abode, thus these stories give us the required tboughts to look deep within our own selves and find God within with His explanations.

I think you would enjoy reading what the Revelation of Baha'u'llah has to say on these subjects.

Regards Tony

LukeS said:

OP. IIRC I read a Hasidic rabbi once, a female. She didn't see the bible as history, rather all the events were being played out in ones life, the exodus, the fall etc. It was like an existential dramatization of the human condition, interpreted personally.

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There are no female Chassidic rabbis.