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The myths of Genesis

Polymath257

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Ted Evans said:
Of course you know that I do not have those books and I am not about to run out and purchased them on your claims. IF, it can be documented as fact, there would be numerous links that would do so. I bet I could find books that would refute the claims in your recommend books.
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That the universe is expanding:
WMAP- Big Bang Expansion: the Hubble Constant

The formation of the light elements:
WMAP Big Bang Elements Test

The background radiation:
WMAP Big Bang CMB Test

The parameters of the BB model and how they are determined (several pages here):
WMAP Goals: Parameters Overview

Era of structure formation (the second has further links to data):
WMAP Goals: Universe Structure
WMAP Formation of Universe Structures

if you want more detail, including links to published papers, just ask.
 
Polymath257

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Ted Evans said:
Of course you know that I do not have those books and I am not about to run out and purchased them on your claims. IF, it can be documented as fact, there would be numerous links that would do so. I bet I could find books that would refute the claims in your recommend books.
Click to expand...


Again,what level of detail do you want? Most internet links aren't going to provide all of the actual data. They will talk about the conclusions made based on that data.

Of course, to understand what the data says, you need to a fair amount of physics. Are you willing to learn and criticize the theory of general relativity?
 
Ted Evans

Ted Evans

Active Member
Premium Member
Curious George said:
Yes and No
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The questions was,
tevans9129;n45092 said:
Would you say that is a claim by Scripture that God created the heavens and the earth?
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Did I ask for anything further? I quoted the verses just as they are written in scripture, nothing whatsoever about someone choosing to interpret them differently from how they are literally written. Therefore, you agree that Scripture, as it is written, claims that God created the heavens and earth, keeping it in the scope of the topic.

Glad that is clarified.
 
Ted Evans

Ted Evans

Active Member
Premium Member
Deidre said:
We answer you, but you don't like our answers lol Because they don't align with your beliefs.
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Can you prove that allegation? If not, does that mean that you are not always honest?

You know, I get that a lot, you do not like the answers, well I tried that one in a class that I received a failing grade on and when I asked the instructor why, his response was that I did not answer the questions to which I replied, I answered your questions, you just did not like the answers and his response....you are correct, I did not like the answer and you still fail.

BTW, I do not believe you can prove your allegation.
 
Polymath257

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Ted Evans said:
Do you consider the writings in Gen 1-20 as being the "topic at hand"? If the answer is yes, of course I do, just as soon as you agree to answer all questions that I may ask, do you agree, yes or no?
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And I have extended the range of questions I will accept. You have not yet agreed. But here is a question for you based on Gen 1-20:

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Do you agree that the scriptures claim that heaven is a barrier between two expanses of water? The waters above, and the waters below?

Do you also agree that no such firmament has ever been detected?
 
Ted Evans

Ted Evans

Active Member
Premium Member
Polymath257 said:
Do you accept to ask only questions related to either Genesis 1-20, the scientific evidence concerning it, or the period of the Big Bang after the beginning of the quark epoch?
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No, the topic is about the writings in Genesis, if you wish to discuss science and the BB, start another thread.
 
Polymath257

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Ted Evans said:
No, the topic is about the writings in Genesis, if you wish to discuss science and the BB, start another thread.
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Can we address evidence both for and against the validity of the presentation in Genesis? And that this will allow scientific evidence either for or against?
 
Curious George

Curious George

Veteran Member
Ted Evans said:
The questions was,


Did I ask for anything further? I quoted the verses just as they are written in scripture, nothing whatsoever about someone choosing to interpret them differently from how they are literally written. Therefore, you agree that Scripture, as it is written, claims that God created the heavens and earth, keeping it in the scope of the topic.

Glad that is clarified.
Click to expand...
You are mistaken. Scripture as written claims within that scripture that god created... nothing in here makes an claim that god created... in reality.

So if we are talking within the universe of genesis, yes the claim is made. However the universe of genesis is not our universe. The two may be related but no claim relates the two.
 
shmogie

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Curious George said:
Theism exists in our world. Atheism exists in our world. In our world, atheism is not belief in nothing but belief regarding the truth of the proposition no god exists. The proposition is a thing. Therefore the conception of the proposition is a thing; therefore, what atheists believe in, if atheists believe in the conception that no god exists, can not be no thing (nothing). This is not semantics really. This is you being mistaken. If you want to opt for a figurative definition of nothing, say so at the outset.
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hmmmmmmm. Theism, God exists. A theism, no god exists. Theism in both cases refers to a theistic belief. Believing there is no God, theistically, means believing in nothing, no God. You are expanding it to mean a belief about there being a belief about there being no god, something.
 
Polymath257

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Curious George said:
You are mistaken. Scripture as written claims within that scripture that god created... nothing in here makes an claim that god created... in reality.

So if we are talking within the universe of genesis, yes the claim is made. However the universe of genesis is not our universe. The two may be related but no claim relates the two.
Click to expand...

Hey, we can agree that the writings of Arthur Conan Doyle make claims about the behavior of Sherlock Holmes. It isn't our universe, but the claims can be limited to that universe.
 
shmogie

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Polymath257 said:
Can we address evidence both for and against the validity of the presentation in Genesis? And that this will allow scientific evidence either for or against?
Click to expand...
This circle has been gone round a hundred times. The universe created itself, God didn;t. God created the universe, it did not create itself. The only two options.
 
Polymath257

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
shmogie said:
This circle has been gone round a hundred times. The universe created itself, God didn;t. God created the universe, it did not create itself. The only two options.
Click to expand...

So what evidence would allow for the breaking of the circle? Any independent evidence for the existence of a deity?
 
Curious George

Curious George

Veteran Member
Polymath257 said:
Hey, we can agree that the writings of Arthur Conan Doyle make claims about the behavior of Sherlock Holmes. It isn't our universe, but the claims can be limited to that universe.
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We can agree to that yes. However, dealing with the books of genesis is a little more complicated. Fiction was not necessarily a genre at the time of the bible but nor was non-fiction. But generally, we take writings to exist in a closed universe unless something dictates otherwise.
 
Curious George

Curious George

Veteran Member
shmogie said:
hmmmmmmm. Theism, God exists. A theism, no god exists. Theism in both cases refers to a theistic belief. Believing there is no God, theistically, means believing in nothing, no God. You are expanding it to mean a belief about there being a belief about there being no god, something.
Click to expand...
No... I was aked what I as an atheist believe "in." My belief as an atheist is that no god exists. What I believe "in" then is the premise that no god exists. Hence I believe "in" the conception that no god exists because I believe that no god exists.

When a theist says they believe in god, it is shorthand for saying they believe that the proposition god exists is true. Consequently what they believe in is the conception of god existing. Not that such a thing can be concieved. However, the latter is a necessity of the former.
 
Polymath257

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Curious George said:
We can agree to that yes. However, dealing with the books of genesis is a little more complicated. Fiction was not necessarily a genre at the time of the bible but nor was non-fiction. But generally, we take writings to exist in a closed universe unless something dictates otherwise.
Click to expand...

When dealing with the Bible, there are at least two relevant perspectives:
1. What did the people believe who wrote the text?
This is complicated in the Bible because many of the texts were written by several people at different times and assembled by yet another person.

2. What are the actual facts?

it is pretty clear that the original people who wrote Genesis believed that God created the heavens and the Earth. What viewpoint they had for the structure of the universe is rather tricky to determine. Like I said, Genesis is the result of several different authors telling slightly different stories as well as someone who assembled the different stories together. So the views of the nature of the universe were probably different between the different writers.
 
D

Deidre

Well-Known Member
You need a lot of proof when it suits you but believe with no proof that a talking snake brought down all of humanity because the Bible states it?

Ted Evans said:
Can you prove that allegation? If not, does that mean that you are not always honest?

You know, I get that a lot, you do not like the answers, well I tried that one in a class that I received a failing grade on and when I asked the instructor why, his response was that I did not answer the questions to which I replied, I answered your questions, you just did not like the answers and his response....you are correct, I did not like the answer and you still fail.

BTW, I do not believe you can prove your allegation.
Click to expand...
 
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