Does Anyone Practice Determinism?

Nakosis · Aug 1, 2017

Skwim said:
"Free will" means (can be defied as

Let's change this up, you can ignore the previous post. You can ignore this post as well, ok maybe not since you don't believe in decisions, so however fate leads you.

But for folks still interested. A simple test.

Free will is the ability to decide among two or more choices.

In the image below, there is a fork in the road. Take your finger, move up towards the fork. Now decide to continue along towards the left or the right.

Determinism, is the philosophy that you can't make a real choice because every choice made is influenced by prior events.

Indeterminism is the belief that not all choices are influenced by prior events. For example you can choose to make a random choice and act upon it. Now the random choice itself is not an act of will. In this case continuing left or right. However choosing to make a random choice and further choosing to act upon it is.

For those who accept indeterminism, this is nothing special. We make choices all the time.

For those who say indeterminism is not possible, please list which prior events caused you to choose left or right and which prior events prevented you from making the alternate choice.

Skwim · Aug 1, 2017

Nakosis said:
Let's change this up, you can ignore the previous post. You can ignore this post as well, ok maybe not since you don't believe in decisions, so however fate leads you.

Whoa! Guess where fate has led me.

But for folks still interested. A simple test.

Free will is the ability to decide among two or more choices.

Hey great. A simple straightforward definition. But let me ask, how is this decision made? That is: how does the decision making machinery work wherein it isn't dependent on the execution of cause-effect events?

Determinism, is the philosophy that you can't make a real choice because every choice made is influenced by prior events.

Not too bad. But I think

"the idea that every event is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions together with the laws of nature".

is more inclusive.

Indeterminism is the belief that not all choices are influenced by prior events. For example you can choose to make a random choice and act upon it. Now the random choice itself is not an act of will. In this case continuing left or right. However choosing to make a random choice and further choosing to act upon it is.

Ouch! "you can choose to make a random choice"? Sure you want to stick with this? If so, just what is a "random choice"?

For those who say indeterminism is not possible, please list which prior events caused you to choose left or right and which prior events prevented you from making the alternate choice.

Thing is, listing or even knowing the cause of an event is not a requirement of determinism. In fact, it's the exact situation with the roll of dice. When we call the outcome of a roll of dice "random" we don't mean that all possible combinations have an equal chance of showing up---they don't---but that we simply lack the particular knowledge of the factors that guided the outcome to know what it will be. It's a function of our ignorance. To be sure, the outcome of the roll is determined by several controlling factors:

1. position of the dice in the hand
2. force at which they were thrown
3. point of release
4. distance from landing point
5. height from landing surface
6. nature of the landing surface

There may be other factors, but I think these should suffice to demonstrate how the outcome of the throw is determined, even if we don't know what the nature of each is. So, this doesn't save indeterminism at all.

Now, if an indeterministic event is possible then how is it manifested? That is, what brings it about? At one moment indeterministic event A doesn't exist, but a fraction of a moment later it is existing. What brought on its existence?

.

Nakosis · Aug 2, 2017

Skwim said:
Whoa! Guess where fate has led me.

Hey great. A simple straightforward definition. But let me ask, how is this decision made? That is: how does the decision making machinery work wherein it isn't dependent on the execution of cause-effect events?

I think we'll get to that probably towards the end.

Not too bad. But I think

"the idea that every event is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions together with the laws of nature".

is more inclusive.

That's fine but this doesn't actually prevent a cause leading to a choice as to which path to take as a result of that cause. Unless I suppose you focus on the word "necessitated" to mean that any cause can lead to only one choice. In which case we are again creating a definition which leads to a forgone conclusion in an argument. Circular reasoning.

Ouch! "you can choose to make a random choice"? Sure you want to stick with this? If so, just what is a "random choice"?

You can chose to act on a random choice. Random in this case meaning there were no previous causes influencing the choice made between alternate courses of action.

Thing is, listing or even knowing the cause of an event is not a requirement of determinism. In fact, it's the exact situation with the roll of dice. When we call the outcome of a roll of dice "random" we don't mean that all possible combinations have an equal chance of showing up---they don't---but that we simply lack the particular knowledge of the factors that guided the outcome to know what it will be. It's a function of our ignorance. To be sure, the outcome of the roll is determined by several controlling factors:

1. position of the dice in the hand
2. force at which they were thrown
3. point of release
4. distance from landing point
5. height from landing surface
6. nature of the landing surface

There may be other factors, but I think these should suffice to demonstrate how the outcome of the throw is determined, even if we don't know what the nature of each is. So, this doesn't save indeterminism at all.

An argument from ignorance? Since it can't be proven false it must be true. Since you can't show what influenced your choice determinism must be true? Doesn't exactly save determinism either.

There's an element missing in the dice roll scenario, but we'll get to that.

Now, if an indeterministic event is possible then how is it manifested? That is, what brings it about? At one moment indeterministic event A doesn't exist, but a fraction of a moment later it is existing. What brought on its existence?

The element which is missing from your dice roll, intelligence.

The second law of thermodynamics, which basically implies that the predetermined course of the universe is to move from a low entropy state to a high entropy state. One plausible fate of the universe is heat death, when the universe reaches it's maximum state of entropy. If determinism is true, this is very likely it's predetermined fate.

(sorry, doctor's appointment) I'll continue after I return.

Skwim · Aug 2, 2017

Nakosis said:
I think we'll get to that probably towards the end.

The end of what?

That's fine but this doesn't actually prevent a cause leading to a choice as to which path to take as a result of that cause.

Didn't say it did. My definition is simply more inclusive because it addresses more than your so-called choices.

Random in this case meaning there were no previous causes influencing the choice made between alternate courses of action.

So why did that particular "choice" come into being and not the other?

The element which is missing from your dice roll, intelligence.

Assuming the intelligence you feel is important here has to do with the tossing of the dice, then replace "in the hand" with "in the Pitney-Bowes AF-237 (B Series) mechanically operated dice throwing device and pancake maker."

.

MonkeyFire · Aug 2, 2017

I am a passive faithful, the archetypes of Omniscience.

Nakosis · Aug 2, 2017

Skwim said:
The end of what?

The end of that, or I suppose, now this post.

Didn't say it did. My definition is simply more inclusive because it addresses more than your so-called choices.

Fine as long as we're not assuming a cause dictates only one possible choice.

So why did that particular "choice" come into being and not the other?

By choosing between alternate possible futures.

Assuming the intelligence you feel is important here has to do with the tossing of the dice, then replace "in the hand" with "in the Pitney-Bowes AF-237 (B Series) mechanically operated dice throwing device and pancake maker."
.

Sure, I guess that would work. Someone had to choose between all possible futures to create this specific machine so it'd be available in one of those futures to perform it's function.

Back to the explanation...

So without intervention determinism rules. A low entropy system devolves towards high entropy.
What the main purpose of intelligence seems to be is to create a low entropy system To overcome this process towards high entropy. In other words, to defeat determinism.

The way it does this is to create numerous possible futures. Then evaluate among all of these possible futures which action which of these futures will bring about low entropy.

Ffor your dice example. It's a very high entropy system, a lot of randomness. What intelligence provides is the means to create different futures of each possible outcome, decide which of those futures would bring about the most order and act to bring about that future. To create a way to reduce or eliminate the randomness of the dice roll. Make a machine which causes the dice to roll only numbers to bring about the possible future that was chosen.

God is another example of intelligence trying to create order and defeat high entropy. God is law and order. Then there's immortality to defeat high entropy or death.

Skwim · Aug 2, 2017

Nakosis said:
The end of that, or I suppose, now this post.

Fine as long as we're not assuming a cause dictates only one possible choice.

By choosing between alternate possible futures.

Sure, I guess that would work. Someone had to choose between all possible futures to create this specific machine so it'd be available in one of those futures to perform it's function.

Back to the explanation...

So without intervention determinism rules. A low entropy system devolves towards high entropy.
What the main purpose of intelligence seems to be is to create a low entropy system To overcome this process towards high entropy. In other words, to defeat determinism.

The way it does this is to create numerous possible futures. Then evaluate among all of these possible futures which action which of these futures will bring about low entropy.

Ffor your dice example. It's a very high entropy system, a lot of randomness. What intelligence provides is the means to create different futures of each possible outcome, decide which of those futures would bring about the most order and act to bring about that future. To create a way to reduce or eliminate the randomness of the dice roll. Make a machine which causes the dice to roll only numbers to bring about the possible future that was chosen.

God is another example of intelligence trying to create order and defeat high entropy. God is law and order. Then there's immortality to defeat high entropy or death.

I give up.

Have a good day.

.

Nakosis · Aug 3, 2017

Skwim said:
I give up.

Have a good day.

.

Ok, but for anyone still interested there is a TED talk on a software engine called Etropica used to develop AI based on this formula for intelligence.

A new equation for intelligence

JustWondering · Aug 10, 2017

idav said:
Do most people act as if determinism isn't true because of its impracticality in real life?

From my experience most people act as if determinism isn't true because it contradicts their supernatural belief systems.

idav said:

I think I know what it means for determinism to be true but if so how would anyone ever make a decision?

Click to expand...

The same way they did before understanding what determinism is.

JustWondering · Aug 10, 2017

URAVIP2ME said:
If all determined to happen then why bother to stop at a stop sign or a red light.

If someone were suicidal then I guess they may not stop at stop signs/red lights. The instinct of self preservation stops the rest of us however.

Darkstorn · Aug 10, 2017

I feel "free will" is at best conditional. I.E It's not separated from cause and effect. Therefore, i suppose i'm a determinist.

URAVIP2ME · Aug 11, 2017

JustWondering said:
If someone were suicidal then I guess they may not stop at stop signs/red lights. The instinct of self preservation stops the rest of us however.

To me more than instinct, because unless damaged, people are born with a built-in conscience.
We can freely choose to listen to one's conscience or not.
I also find Ecclesiastes 7:17 to be of interest because it mentions Not to be foolish and die before your time.
If pre-determined then one could die prematurely, so to me that leaves us with un-determined choices to make.

URAVIP2ME · Aug 11, 2017

Darkstorn said:
I feel "free will" is at best conditional. I.E It's not separated from cause and effect. Therefore, i suppose i'm a determinist.

But, to me if one knows ' don't put your hand in the fire because that causes a bad effect ' that is a free choice.
So, in that sense we are bound by physical laws including gravity, but within or inside of those physical laws we have choices because we can often know the cause and effect (rob a bank and could end up in jail is still a free-will choice)

idav · Aug 11, 2017

URAVIP2ME said:
But, to me if one knows ' don't put your hand in the fire because that causes a bad effect ' that is a free choice.

I like this example. To me knowledge is a source for free will as opposed to being ignorant and product of pure environment. Perhaps a way to describe free will is "knowingly determined", but knowing means other choices were available.

Willamena · Aug 11, 2017

Nakosis said:
Free will is the ability to decide among two or more choices.

A choice isn't actually synonymous with an option. Being a choice implies that you are already made. You're a has-been. People are talking about you in the past tense. Options, on the other hand, have the whole world of possibility in front of them. They are here, in the present.

Free will is the ability to choose among two or more options.

Determinism, is the philosophy that you can't make a real choice because every choice made is influenced by prior events.

That's not technically correct. Determinism doesn't involve will, but it doesn't eliminate options or choosing. The "will" that is removed from the picture is, to put it plainly, action attributed to conscious agency: you (and me). A computer program, for instance, can choose among two or more options. But it doesn't do so willfully. And a person choosing out of habit, preferences, or randomness also doesn't employ will.

Indeterminism is the belief that not all choices are influenced by prior events. For example you can choose to make a random choice and act upon it. Now the random choice itself is not an act of will. In this case continuing left or right. However choosing to make a random choice and further choosing to act upon it is.

Again, that's not quite right: indeterminism isn't about choices. Determinism is the idea that each event is caused by what came before, indeterminism says that not all things are caused in that way. Understand that causes are not synonymous with choices.

For those who accept indeterminism, this is nothing special. We make choices all the time.

For those who say indeterminism is not possible, please list which prior events caused you to choose left or right and which prior events prevented you from making the alternate choice.

Indeterminism is evidenced by elusive precise measurements ("We assume that reality itself is exact but that we are just not capable of measuring it exactly.") and unpredictability.

Willamena · Aug 11, 2017

Darkstorn said:
I feel "free will" is at best conditional. I.E It's not separated from cause and effect. Therefore, i suppose i'm a determinist.

At least one philosophical theory describes free will as the ability for a conscious mind to be the cause of things. So it's not divorced from cause and effect at all.

Willamena · Aug 11, 2017

idav said:
Do most people act as if determinism isn't true because of its impracticality in real life? I think I know what it means for determinism to be true but if so how would anyone ever make a decision?

I don't know of anyone who acts as if determinism isn't true, so I can't say.

idav · Aug 11, 2017

Willamena said:
I don't know of anyone who acts as if determinism isn't true, so I can't say.

When you make a decision, is it predetermined already or determined by you? Is it possible to make a pre-determined choice?

Willamena · Aug 11, 2017

idav said:
When you make a decision, is it predetermined already or determined by you? Is it possible to make a pre-determined choice?

When I make a decision, I don't know about it until after it has happened. So whether it is either of those doesn't matter.

idav · Aug 11, 2017

Willamena said:
When I make a decision, I don't know about it until after it has happened. So whether it is either of those doesn't matter.

When we make a decision we know the choices, therefore we know it whether or not it happens.

Does Anyone Practice Determinism?

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