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How are these Great Beings explained?

CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
If no one asks a question, then from now on you can hear no reply. :smile:

Not one of Gods Messengers would have said One Word to Humanity as a whole, if it was not for God. But they do His Will.

Thus those that accept them, also do as they ask and that is share what was said.

Regards Tony
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You do believe there are false teachers and false religions don't you?
 
Vinayaka

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
CG Didymus said:
It's the Baha'is that say they are related. It's the Baha'is that say they are not very related to Islam. To me, Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism are very related. But, they very unrelated to Christianity.
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That's why we have the various sections we have on this forum. It's pretty common knowledge, this families of similar religions thing.
 
Vinayaka

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
CG Didymus said:
Didn't one of them say that it was Baha'u'llah speaking to Moses from the burning bush?
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I have no idea. None. When the infallible prophet and his descendants contradict each other, or themselves in different places, it has to be confusing for all concerned. You and I and Carlita and non-Baha'i's and ex-Baha'is are truly fortunate not to have a vested interest in it.

Still, somehow it works for them.
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
CG Didymus said:
Didn't one of them say that it was Baha'u'llah speaking to Moses from the burning bush?
Click to expand...

Yes. Since Bahaullah means glory to god and god was behind the bush, they correlate that Bahaullah must be behind the burning bush because christians say he is the glory to god.

If god was beyond words, then I can see some logic in this. Since Bahaullah is a human being like Moses, it would be, um, weird to have another human tell Moses he is god because he shares the same attributes (kinda like mainstream christianity christ is god).

But I can't remember if Bahai believe in the trinity. If they don't, that adds to the confusion.
 
InvestigateTruth

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
CG Didymus said:
It's the Baha'is that say they are related. It's the Baha'is that say they are not very related to Islam. To me, Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism are very related. But, they very unrelated to Christianity.
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I am not aware of any Bahai Writing which says, they are related. I am aware that Bahai Writings says They are all from the same source; revealed by God. Is this what you mean by 'related'?
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
loverofhumanity said:
All we do know for certain is that Ishmael was Abraham's only son as Isaac was born about 13 years later. So when Abraham was told to offer up his only son only Ishmael qualifies as he was first born. It couldn't have been Isaac as Isaac had not been born yet so Isaac was never Abraham's only son.

"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was ready to offer up his only son ..." (Hebrews 11:17, R.S.V.)

According to the Quran Moses was first told to sacrifice His son. Then AFTER the sacrifice He was given the glad tidings of the soon to be born Isaac.

Further scrutiny requires that we quote the full passage in surah 37:

ISHMAEL spoken of here by default because further down Abraham is told that Isaac will be born to Him. The first son isn't named but it wasn't Isaac so it had to be Ishmael.


ABRAHAM ASKS GOD FOR A SON then is asked to sacrifice him

99. He said: "I will go to my Lord! He will surely guide me!
100. "O my Lord! Grant me a righteous (son)!"
101. So We gave him the good news of a forbearing son.
102. Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I have seen in a vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills, one of the steadfast!"
103. So when they had both submitted (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),

God Rewards Abraham's sacrifice

104. We called out to him "O Abraham! ...
105. "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
106. For this was a clear trial-
107. And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
108. And We left for him among generations (to come) in later times:
109. "Peace and salutation to Abraham!"
110. Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
111. For he was one of Our believing Servants.

GOD GIVES ABRAHAM ISAAC

112. And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a prophet,- one of the Righteous.
113. We blessed him and Isaac: but of their progeny are (some) that do right, and (some) that obviously do wrong, to themselves.

You see then that Abraham offered His only son BEFORE Isaac was born and that is clearly Ishmael. The Quran also clears up the contradiction in the Bible verse where Isaac is mentioned but 'only son' is mentioned too and it is not possible that Abraham sacrificed Isaac as he hadnt been born yet and Isaac was never Abraham's first or only son at any time. Ishmael was.
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Genesis 21:8-10
8 The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast. 9 But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking, 10 and she said to Abraham, “Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.”
Genesis 21:14
"And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba."
Genesis 22:2
2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”
Genesis 22:9-12
9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”

“Here I am,” he replied.

12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

So tell me how you reconcile this with your quote about Ishmael was the one Abraham took to be sacrificed?
 
InvestigateTruth

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
CG Didymus said:
What does the Hebrew word that is interpreted as "The Glory of God" mean and how is it used? Couldn't it be almost like saying, "God's love shone down"? Plus, saying someone is predicted doesn't count all that much when the name is a title given to a person. Like the person calling himself "Maitreya", I'm sure he's a very spiritual and charismatic person, but is he really the return of Buddha?
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Yes, but the year, place of revelation, duration of revelation, and even the given name (Hussein) were also predicted; not just the title.
 
InvestigateTruth

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Carlita said:
Respect people's beliefs and you will find world peace.
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Respect does not mean, we have to express the same view about Jesus, as mainstream Christians have, or express the same view about reincarnation that the Hindus have.
I would argue that no religion belongs to its followers. Bahaullah does not belong to those who call themselves Bahais, neither His Writings belong to Bahais. Islam does not belong to Muslims. krishna does not belong to Hindus.
All people, from whatever Religion, or belief equally have the right to express their own view with regards to any other belief or Prophet. Anyone who says otherwise, is not a believer in human rights, and is being disrespectful toward other people's beliefs and views.
 
loverofhumanity

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
CG Didymus said:
Genesis 21:8-10
8 The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast. 9 But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking, 10 and she said to Abraham, “Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.”
Genesis 21:14
"And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba."
Genesis 22:2
2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”
Genesis 22:9-12
9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”

“Here I am,” he replied.

12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

So tell me how you reconcile this with your quote about Ishmael was the one Abraham took to be sacrificed?
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Ishmael was born about 12 years before Isaac so he was an only son. The Quran was the Revelation given by God to Muhammad and collected over 23 years in the lifetime of Muhammad.

Baha'u'llah confirms that the version in the Quran is the accurate one. It's a matter of whether we accept Baha'u'llah as the Manifestation of God which we Baha'is do, so this is not an issue for us.
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
InvestigateTruth said:
Exactly. Then why don't you express your own view, instead saying the view of mainstream Christians, Hindus...etc?
It seems to me, whenever, whatever view is more convenient for you, you become that view, so as to keep arguing.
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Arguing is proving one's self right (ego).

Debating is proving one's self right (with support written or otherwise)

Discussion is exchanging different views on a particular topic; whether we agree or disagree doesn't make it into an argument or debate. It's just a difference of opinion.

:leafwind:

I already expressed my views on christianity. You have to read my post. I'm not arguing (I'm not proving I'm right because I'm not talking about my views). I'm not debating because every time I offer evidence or scripure to support my position (not belief) instead of talking aabout it, you guys rather refute it.

I can't discuss anything with ya'll unless you find out we have something in common.

It's a no win situation unless you're interested in other people (other people's) views not just Bahai and Bahai perspective.

Also, I can talk about anything without believing in it. I just know that you guys are wrong about Christianity and Buddhism but I don't need to believe in Christianity to prove it (debate) and I will not post suttas to prove you wrong since that's against The Buddha's teachings.

But if you want to discuss various viewpoints not just our own, I'm all for it. But if you want to stick with your beliefs, you'll have to talk from your opinion and experience. Again, I am not a sacred-book person (another belief of mine I repeated) so if you want to discuss, find another way for me to understand it.
 
loverofhumanity

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
CG Didymus said:
But God was, and still is, unsuccessful in stopping the behavior. Now science is saying that the people are wired that way. Are they right or wrong?
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We have been given freedom of choice to follow God's advice or turn away from it and the only way He tries to stop injustices and bad behaviour is by sending His Manifestation to us, then it's up to us.

Science is still evolving and there is much more to learn and much more evolving to do. We know actually only very little.
 
TransmutingSoul

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Vinayaka said:
nobody has. Several have tried, sort of. That's very true. But what Hindus do say, Tony, is that it is beyond words. it's beyond time, form, and space. So obviously there is no intellectual explanation. It's beyond the intellect.

But lots of things can't be adequately explained by words. When you think about it words are incredibly limiting. The mystic sees that part of the intellect as a great barrier.
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Yes this is what is said, God is Unknowable in Essence.

Thus what is offered is God makes Attributes from Him Known. The Greatest of all Beings are the embodiment of those attributes, a perfect mirror of them. All of us try to live as they live, try to be as they are.

In all this we have to understand we can not transend the station we have been given.

Regards Tony
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Respect other people's beliefs as they respect yours. It has nothing to do with accepting their beliefs. It just means if you are respecting them, don't misinterpret their beliefs and smile in their face.
InvestigateTruth said:
Respect does not mean, we have to express the same view about Jesus, as mainstream Christians have, or express the same view about reincarnation that the Hindus have.
Click to expand...
Respect means don't express your beliefs as facts. Hinduis know more about Hinduism than Bahai; so anything about Krishna in Bahai is a belief and opinion not a fact.

Respect means to accept this to make peace relations with those that disagree with you. Unless you two want to find common foundation for peace (greater peace) respect each other's boundaries and discuss from there.

But greater peace goes beyond mutual respect and tolerance.

InvestigateTruth said:
I would argue that no religion belongs to its followers. Bahaullah does not belong to those who call themselves Bahais, neither His Writings belong to Bahais. Islam does not belong to Muslims. krishna does not belong to Hindus.
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They sure do. My belief in my family in spirit is not another person's belief and they do not know my grandmothers as I known them. The belief is entirely personal.

The culture of each faith shapes and defines individual beliefs. A native american religion is purely cultural. It's not new age or modern. You have to be a part of hat culture and people in order to believe what they believe. It's the same as most religions. Religion is cultural. New Age religions are falling away from cultural structure; and, that is okay. As long as these new age religions don't look down on the older ones (as if they are outdated), then we would have peace.

But, yes. Muhammad belongs to Muslim. Krishna belongs to Vaishnavites, and Christ belongs to Christians. I can believe in Krishna all I want but if I'm not Hindu, it's all new age. There is more involved than virtues, attributes, and spirituality. It goes deeper than that. Way deeper.

InvestigateTruth said:
All people, from whatever Religion, or belief equally have the right to express their own view with regards to any other belief or Prophet. Anyone who says otherwise, is not a believer in human rights, and is being disrespectful toward other people's beliefs and views.
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Expression of views can be made without insult. We expressed how you can express your views without insulting other religions. Saying "in my opinion" helps. Stating beliefs as facts does not. If I said god does not exist... that is stating a fact. If I said, in my opinion, god does not exist that is stating an assertive belief.

Finding similarities in beliefs where there is none is an insult. But you would have to learn the other person's feelings and viewpoints rather than keeping seeing it for your own. That's unconditional love and empathy. It's learning how not to see yourself as sharing the truth (if you want peace) but being the truth by showing you are interested in humanity's differences as well.

If you have people here insulted by how some of you speak, do you care about other people's feelings and views or not?

I mean, I keep asking do you guys care and no one has answered the question.
 
TransmutingSoul

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
CG Didymus said:
You do believe there are false teachers and false religions don't you?
Click to expand...

Indeed there has bèen many. One of the greatest are the doctrines made within some Faiths that become the Clouds that prevent the followers seeing the return when it happens.

This is what I see as adding to scriptures. Meanings that become clouds.

Regards Tony
 
loverofhumanity

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
CG Didymus said:
Didn't one of them say that it was Baha'u'llah speaking to Moses from the burning bush?
Click to expand...

"He was the One Moses conversed with in the Burning Bush. In other words Bahá’u’lláh identifies the glory of the Godhead on that occasion with Himself." (Shoghi Effendi)

I was very surprised when I found that out only a few months ago.
 
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