godnotgod
Thou art That
You got it!
Just as the antelope flees the lion and puts all its energy into escape and survival, but at the moment of truth, finally surrenders itself to the lion.
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A Challenge for those who believe in a loving God
- Thread starter Rational Agnostic
- Start date
You got it!
Just as the antelope flees the lion and puts all its energy into escape and survival, but at the moment of truth, finally surrenders itself to the lion.
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
an indifferent, fierce, savage intelligence created life here.
or
intelligence emerged on it's own, and the intelligent force is non living intelligence.
intelligence, and all life is a competing beggar in the universe.
who's to say we won't evolve beyond the universe someday.
or
intelligence emerged on it's own, and the intelligent force is non living intelligence.
intelligence, and all life is a competing beggar in the universe.
who's to say we won't evolve beyond the universe someday.
FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
I have wondered that as well, despite the inability to feel pain, does the concept of "fear" exist for the caterpillar? I.e there is something happening that it must get away from or it will die? So even if the caterpillar doesn't know what death is, or what is happening to it, would it instinctually be experiencing during its attack by the wasp that this is something that it should be getting away from. While it is being eaten, even if there is no pain, is there an instinctive need to flee? I ask because we know as humans how powerful the instinct of fear is, how even the sensation can result in us being paralyzed and filled with a dread that overrides all other senses, even thought. Our experience with fear may be more prominent than a caterpillars but even if the caterpillar experiences a modicum of what we would experience if it was happening to us, then yeah that's a terrible thing for a diety to ascribe.
But going even further regardless if the caterpillar feels pain or not doesn't matter. The act itself reflects a sense of indifference in existence for the procreation of life; "either way works" as long as life is propagated. This doesn't sound to me as good or evil, but rather wholly indifferent...which is a much more frightening idea of god than an evil one imo.
But going even further regardless if the caterpillar feels pain or not doesn't matter. The act itself reflects a sense of indifference in existence for the procreation of life; "either way works" as long as life is propagated. This doesn't sound to me as good or evil, but rather wholly indifferent...which is a much more frightening idea of god than an evil one imo.
Tmac
Active Member
I don't believe for one minute you really wish to resolve this dilemma but I resolve it by first examining your question.
First it appears as though you believe in God but that you have ideas on how God should/would behave, second you also have some idea about love and how it should/would be shown, third that you've had some personal experience that makes this issue relevant to you. (Not even considering possibilities of consciousness existing in the caterpillar and wasp) Without some depth on just these three aspects of your thought, resolution would be difficult.
I wonder though why you used this example in describing a biological process and not our own means of coming into existence? Two people, of the opposite sex, join together, in hopefully, a mutual agreement (which is not always the case and BTW not always enjoyed by both people) during which the male ejaculates a mass of sperm that begin swimming up a canal (many dying along the way) in search of an egg, once found, in most cases only 'one' sperm penetrates (if nerves are present, some kind of sensation is felt) the egg, from this point on I have no knowledge what goes on between the invader and the invaded to produce the new human.
First it appears as though you believe in God but that you have ideas on how God should/would behave, second you also have some idea about love and how it should/would be shown, third that you've had some personal experience that makes this issue relevant to you. (Not even considering possibilities of consciousness existing in the caterpillar and wasp) Without some depth on just these three aspects of your thought, resolution would be difficult.
I wonder though why you used this example in describing a biological process and not our own means of coming into existence? Two people, of the opposite sex, join together, in hopefully, a mutual agreement (which is not always the case and BTW not always enjoyed by both people) during which the male ejaculates a mass of sperm that begin swimming up a canal (many dying along the way) in search of an egg, once found, in most cases only 'one' sperm penetrates (if nerves are present, some kind of sensation is felt) the egg, from this point on I have no knowledge what goes on between the invader and the invaded to produce the new human.
Tmac
Active Member
I would use "unconditional" rather that indifferent, life, the animator, that one thing we can't put a finger on, has a source.
FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
I don't think you understand what I mean by indifferent. Or at least your reply doesn't match what I meant by it, but to each their own.
For whatever reason I don't really feel like answering completely seriously so:
The Great Wasp God must surely love us, for he has gifted us these small, fleshy sacks that walk around and reproduce themselves just to provide ample food for our children!! This is surely a sign of benevolence!!
On a more serious note: There was probably a better way to present the Problem of Evil. Most insects don't have brains complex enough to experience emotions (though it seems bees can feel happiness).
Suffering is an emotional response to pain. Pain is merely a sensory signal. I have slight sinus pain right now, but it's not enough to really even notice unless I'm thinking about it. I would not call it suffering.
So while this caterpillar may feel pain, it cannot suffer. In which case, I don't see what the issue is. No being capable of suffering is suffering.
Now I get that this is more generally about the problem of evil or the problem of suffering, but you picked a rather weak example considering the brain of the caterpillar, as far as I can find out with some searching, is not developed enough to suffer or have an emotional connection with itself or the sensations it experiences.
The Great Wasp God must surely love us, for he has gifted us these small, fleshy sacks that walk around and reproduce themselves just to provide ample food for our children!! This is surely a sign of benevolence!!
On a more serious note: There was probably a better way to present the Problem of Evil. Most insects don't have brains complex enough to experience emotions (though it seems bees can feel happiness).
Suffering is an emotional response to pain. Pain is merely a sensory signal. I have slight sinus pain right now, but it's not enough to really even notice unless I'm thinking about it. I would not call it suffering.
So while this caterpillar may feel pain, it cannot suffer. In which case, I don't see what the issue is. No being capable of suffering is suffering.
Now I get that this is more generally about the problem of evil or the problem of suffering, but you picked a rather weak example considering the brain of the caterpillar, as far as I can find out with some searching, is not developed enough to suffer or have an emotional connection with itself or the sensations it experiences.
Tmac
Active Member
Actually I do understand what you meant by indifferent but to suggest a total lack of involvement is ludicrous, as if some thing was set in motion and then abandon only to use itself up like a candle, like a battery. There is involvement, the source gives with out condition nor accountability.
FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
That isn't but what I suggested? I pretty much said that there is involvement but not an involvement that is based on morality. By indifferent I mean an involvement that focuses on effect.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
I can look at the caterpillar and wasp, and see how humans beings acting in the same way towards each other.
Curious Cosby
New Member
Romans 8:19-22 ESV
For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
If you relate the Bible, as well as some other aprocryphal books such as The Book Of Enoch, Apocalypse of Abraham, and Book of Giants, we can attest that the "Fallen" have been on this Earth as long as mankind, or perhaps longer. In the books of Enoch and Giants in particular, it was told that the fallen Son's of God performed "experiments" with humans and beasts. Not only were their own progeny with the daughters of men enormous Giants, but the Watchers also created "monsters" and taught men how to defy nature itself.
That being said, how would we know what of this Earth is still part of God's design, and what has been manipulated?
If the underlying question of why God allows suffering must still be addressed, it can be explained in a very oversimplified manner. (Though better explained in a forum allowing for much more space) Do you think it better to have a father that always has his hand on you, ever keeping you from harm, never allowing you to make any decision that would bring about failure, or one that allows you to choose your way and even guides you when you ask? I think resentment for the first father would arise very early, and that child would never truly learn to appreciate, much less love, that father.
Super simple, but seriously, the consequence of choice is happenstance. Good, bad, indifferent, it doesn't matter. But we see in scripture, that one day His hand will be upon us once again, and evil will be destroyed.
For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
If you relate the Bible, as well as some other aprocryphal books such as The Book Of Enoch, Apocalypse of Abraham, and Book of Giants, we can attest that the "Fallen" have been on this Earth as long as mankind, or perhaps longer. In the books of Enoch and Giants in particular, it was told that the fallen Son's of God performed "experiments" with humans and beasts. Not only were their own progeny with the daughters of men enormous Giants, but the Watchers also created "monsters" and taught men how to defy nature itself.
That being said, how would we know what of this Earth is still part of God's design, and what has been manipulated?
If the underlying question of why God allows suffering must still be addressed, it can be explained in a very oversimplified manner. (Though better explained in a forum allowing for much more space) Do you think it better to have a father that always has his hand on you, ever keeping you from harm, never allowing you to make any decision that would bring about failure, or one that allows you to choose your way and even guides you when you ask? I think resentment for the first father would arise very early, and that child would never truly learn to appreciate, much less love, that father.
Super simple, but seriously, the consequence of choice is happenstance. Good, bad, indifferent, it doesn't matter. But we see in scripture, that one day His hand will be upon us once again, and evil will be destroyed.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
People will say, Why does God permit things.
God never intended for anyone to suffer.
Mankind chosen his way.
God tried to make humans obye him. But human always thought they know better.
So now humans wants to blame God for all their suffering.
If God was to come back again to make You obye him, how long would it be before you start your Rebellion against God again.
So there are those who chose to be with God and those who are still in Rebellion against God, that bring suffering upon themselves.
And yes as a Christian I suffer, but through my suffering it strengthens me.knowing that this life is only step away from my eternal life, of No more suffering.
God never intended for anyone to suffer.
Mankind chosen his way.
God tried to make humans obye him. But human always thought they know better.
So now humans wants to blame God for all their suffering.
If God was to come back again to make You obye him, how long would it be before you start your Rebellion against God again.
So there are those who chose to be with God and those who are still in Rebellion against God, that bring suffering upon themselves.
And yes as a Christian I suffer, but through my suffering it strengthens me.knowing that this life is only step away from my eternal life, of No more suffering.
PureX
Veteran Member
If I were the caterpiller, I would hate god for creating these bees. If I were the bees, I would love god for creating these caterpillers. What this tells me, the human, is that my conception of god is based on my own well-being. Which is not a particularly enlightened way of conceiving of the ultimate source, sustenance, and purpose of all that exists.
Curious Cosby
New Member
Man brought sin into the world. In the garden, as well as on the Ark, the animals lived in peace. When sin is removed and paradise restored, the wolf will lie with the lamb and we as humans will finally see things as God intended.
Until then, the lion eats the gazelle, the large bird eats the little one, and the little one eats the worm. That is the world we live in which was made fruitless, unwillingly. (Ref. Romans 8:19-22)
Until then, the lion eats the gazelle, the large bird eats the little one, and the little one eats the worm. That is the world we live in which was made fruitless, unwillingly. (Ref. Romans 8:19-22)
Curious Cosby
New Member
Very true. Thank you for this.