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The time of Judeo-Christian writings

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I feel sure they will.

First, before you consider the sources in the context of academic history you need to have a background of what is sound academic history. sayak83 gave an excellent source "The pursuit of history" by John Tosh, which I am familiar with, and gave an excellent summary of important points from the book.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
... Scholars mostly describe these writings in there roughly the present form as written in the 6th and 5th century BCE.

See Wikipedia: Biblical Minimalism and Selection bias.

Most scholars agree that the five books of the Pentateuch—Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomycame from four sources, the Yahwist, the Elohist, the Deuteronomist and the Priestly source, each telling the same basic story, and joined together by various editors. Since the 1970s there has been a revolution in scholarship: the Elohist source is now widely regarded as no more than a variation on the Yahwist, while the Priestly source is increasingly seen not as a document but as a body of revisions and expansions to the Yahwist (or "non-Priestly") material. (The Deuteronomistic source does not appear in Genesis).

From Wikipedia: The Book of Genesis: Origins

For much of the 20th century most scholars agreed that the five books of the Pentateuch—Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy—came from four sources, the Yahwist, the Elohist, the Deuteronomistand the Priestly source, each telling the same basic story, and joined together by various editors.[13] Since the 1970s there has been a revolution in scholarship: the Elohist source is now widely regarded as no more than a variation on the Yahwist, while the Priestly source is increasingly seen not as a document but as a body of revisions and expansions to the Yahwist (or "non-Priestly") material. (The Deuteronomistic source does not appear in Genesis).[14]

Plagiarism?
 

Magus

Active Member
I have being studying the mythology of Giants and i noticed it's a common theme throughout the Bible, they come from Greek mythology, Most of the Old Testament came from Greek mythology and thus dates no earlier then the 3rd century BCE.

Noah's Flood derives from the Greek adaption of the Babylonian myth of Atrahasis, since this myth was first translated into Greek in the 3rd century BCE , that puts the date of Genesis as Post-3rd century BC, Ancient Greeks have an ancient culture full of legends and mythology, Canaan on the other hand, does not, those people lived in tents, they had no novels, so where could the authors of the OT draw inspiration from, who else but the Greeks.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member

I understand the difference between Biblical Minimalism and Biblical Maximalism, The dominant academic view is Biblical Minimalism, and rely heavily on the historical and archaeological evidence outside the text, I believe the dominant apologist view of Biblical Maximalism is the view of many Christian apologists who in varying degrees hold to historical accuracy of the Pentateuch before the 5th century BCE, based mostly on the authority of the text justifying the historical accuracy of the text. There is not much disagreement between Biblical Minimalists and Maximalists concerning the history of Judaism after 5th century BCE.

Example: Most if not all Biblical Minimalists do not believe Moses was the author of the Pentateuch. Most Biblical Maximalists believe that Moses was the author of most of the Pentateuch giving it first person authority for the accuracy of the text.

I am interested in an explanation for the application of the reference Selection bias. in the context of this thread;

From Wikipedia: The Book of Genesis: Origins

For much of the 20th century most scholars agreed that the five books of the Pentateuch—Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy—came from four sources, the Yahwist, the Elohist, the Deuteronomistand the Priestly source, each telling the same basic story, and joined together by various editors.[13] Since the 1970s there has been a revolution in scholarship: the Elohist source is now widely regarded as no more than a variation on the Yahwist, while the Priestly source is increasingly seen not as a document but as a body of revisions and expansions to the Yahwist (or "non-Priestly") material. (The Deuteronomistic source does not appear in Genesis).[14]

Plagiarism?
I apologize if I did not include specifically the citation. I considered it a very general description.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I have being studying the mythology of Giants and i noticed it's a common theme throughout the Bible, they come from Greek mythology, Most of the Old Testament came from Greek mythology and thus dates no earlier then the 3rd century BCE.

Noah's Flood derives from the Greek adaption of the Babylonian myth of Atrahasis, since this myth was first translated into Greek in the 3rd century BCE , that puts the date of Genesis as Post-3rd century BC, Ancient Greeks have an ancient culture full of legends and mythology, Canaan on the other hand, does not, those people lived in tents, they had no novels, so where could the authors of the OT draw inspiration from, who else but the Greeks.

I disagree with the above bold The dominant sources of the Pentateuch before the ~1000 to 600 BCE is Babylonian, Ugarit, and Canaanite mythology and beliefs found in older cuneiform texts. Yes, Greek mythology was also influenced, and in turn Greek mythology and philosophy in turn influence Judaism and later Christianity after ~500 BCE, and specifically after the conquest by Alexander the Great. Greek Hellenism became an important influence after this.
 

Magus

Active Member
I disagree with the above bold The dominant sources of the Pentateuch before the ~1000 to 600 BCE is Babylonian, Ugarit, and Canaanite mythology and beliefs found in older cuneiform texts. Yes, Greek mythology was also influenced, and in turn Greek mythology and philosophy in turn influence Judaism and later Christianity after ~500 BCE, and specifically after the conquest by Alexander the Great. Greek Hellenism became an important influence after this.

What part of the Pentateuch date between 1000 BCE to 600 BCE , they are way later, post-Herodotus at the absolute earliest.

Genesis 2:11 ( This is Greek mythology )
The name of the first is Pison: that is it which 'compasseth' the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
PHASIS - Colchian River-God of Greek Mythology

'River Phasis, son of 'Okeanos' ( A River that 'compasseth' the Earth) that flows from the Caucasus Mountain into the Black Sea, it picks up Gold deposits, which are fished using Sheepskins ( Golden Fleece), thus Colchis ( Havilah ) was known as the land of Gold.

They was no sophisticated Canaanite culture culture between 1000 BCE to 600 BCE writing novels about mythical giants, Israelites digging up the Land of Canaan, is pretty scarce compared to Egypt and Greece, the vast Kingdom of David Solomon have not being found either, everything in the Bible are from external sources.
 
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BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Dating the Pentateuch writings:By the evidence the Pentateuch is an evolved text compiled and edited from different sources. Early sources of the compilation are Babylonian, Canaaite and Ugarit cuneiform tablets, and compiled into Hebrew with Hebrew cultural editions, and interpretations at some time after about 800 BCE. There is no evidence of Hebrew scripture before this, and only a few primitive Hebrew/Ugarite script before this. Scholars mostly describe these writings in there roughly the present form as written in the 6th and 5th century BCE.

The four source argument for the Pentateuch, YEDP.

Most scholars agree that the five books of the Pentateuch—Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomycame from four sources, the Yahwist, the Elohist, the Deuteronomist and the Priestly source, each telling the same basic story, and joined together by various editors. Since the 1970s there has been a revolution in scholarship: the Elohist source is now widely regarded as no more than a variation on the Yahwist, while the Priestly source is increasingly seen not as a document but as a body of revisions and expansions to the Yahwist (or "non-Priestly") material. (The Deuteronomistic source does not appear in Genesis).


This brief, but more specific references and discussion to follow.

There are multiple problems with YEDP Theory and problems with this post.

You were asked to provide evidence for the veracity of the Bible, not evidence to invalidate its teachings.

Further, all of YEDP is textual theory, there is no confirmation outside the scriptures for its theorizing.

Indeed, it can be easily countered by a variety of means.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Most Biblical Maximalists believe that Moses was the author of most of the Pentateuch giving it first person authority for the accuracy of the text.
Rubbish.

From Livius: Maximalists and Minimalists

Unfortunately, minimalism and maximalism are not always clearly understood. The debate is not restricted to the archaeology of Israel: as indicated above, there are similar debates in other disciplines. Iranologists once accepted the existence of a Median state, but the tendency is now to read Herodotus' story as a Greek vision on the Achaemenid Empire projected on an earlier stage. It is not common among Iranologists to use expressions like "minimalism" and "maximalism", but the debate is identical.

It must also be stressed that a minimalist is not - as is often said - an atheist skeptic who denies the existence of a political organization led by David or Solomon. He is in fact a scholar who thinks that the normal evidence for a central state is missing. Nor is the maximalist someone who naively believes everything written in the Bible: he is not a litteralist but a scholar who, faced with the usual lack of information, decides to make the best from the written data he has, the Bible. Maximalism and minimalism are theoretical concepts that have little to do with religion - many minimalists are believers, and there are many maximalist authors who are not led by religious beliefs (e.g., pseudoarchaeologists like Graham Hancock and Erich von Däniken).​
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
1) What period of time did the writings of the OT cover and what period of time did the writings of the NT cover?
OT = 4000BC - 400BC
NT = 0 - 70AD
2) When were these writings physically generated?
OT = 1000BC - 400BC Bible Possibly Written Centuries Earlier, Text Suggests
NT = 70-95AD (there is no definitive source for this, as scholars/experts do not agree on the dates)
3) Can the Scripture writings, relative to historical events, be corroborated and if so by what means?
Historical events can be corroborated, but that in no way corroborates any claims made about Jesus, his actions or his divine nature. If authors were alive during the historical events, they would be expected to have gotten them right, even if they were making up everything about Jesus. (This is just common sense and simple logic. The accuracy of historical events do not support the accuracy of supernatural claims)

But, there are examples of historical errors in the New Testament. For example (https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-major-historical-errors-in-the-Bible):
Matthew 27:52 "and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life."
Nobody ever noticed it or mentions it anywhere else, while all kinds of minor events are recorded by Roman historians at that time.
Luke 2:4 So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David.
The census and its dating itself is dubious, I will not use that but focus on the rules of this census.
When the Romans ordered a census to register people and properties, they did it for administrative (mainly taxing) purposes. They wanted to know where you lived now and the property you owned. They could not care less who your ancestor 1000 years before was and where he lived. They never held such a census anywhere in the entire Empire, because what use would that information be to them?
On top of that, it is not even possible for such a census to be held. Ask yourself the question where you would you go? You are lucky when you succeed in tracing back the paternal line for 3 or 4 centuries when you are not from an aristocratic family, even with todays modern archives.
Historically not true beyond any reasonable doubt.

4) Can the Egyptian Pharoes and the kings in the Bible, as well as other world leaders, be verified with secular means?
I would assume the Kings and Pharoes mentioned in the bible would be correct, whether or not the supernatural claims are. It would be very easy for writers back then to get the names of these rulers right. But, it provides no support for claims made about Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah, etc. because we have practically no corroborating accounts of any of these men outside the Bible. Even Josephus most likely only mentioned Jesus and John the Baptists very briefly. Early Christians then added to these accounts to bolster their historical argument ... or at least that is what the experts think.

Scholarly opinion varies on the total or partial authenticity of the reference in Book 18, Chapter 3, 3 of the Antiquities, a passage that states that Jesus the Messiah was a wise teacher who was crucified by Pilate, usually called the Testimonium Flavianum.[4][5][1] The general scholarly view is that while the Testimonium Flavianum is most likely not authentic in its entirety, it is broadly agreed upon that it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus, which was then subject to Christian expansion/alteration.[5][6][7][8][9][10]Although the exact nature and extent of the Christian redaction remains unclear,[11] there is broad consensus as to what the original text of the Testimonium by Josephus would have looked like.[9]

All in all, there is no way of knowing who wrote the New Testament books, as they were named for the Apostles. "The Gospel According to Mark", for example, didn't mean that Mark wrote it. It was written in honor of the apostle, most likely. (Obviously Paul's letters are an exception; and, possibly Luke/Acts, who was an assistant to Paul).

Here is an interesting take on this by a Biblical Scholar. Can't say he is right or wrong, but he is an expert on the subject.
Half of New Testament forged, Bible scholar says
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
I get the impression these are hypothesise, not necessarily indisputable facts, your thoughts?
There are no indisputable facts when it comes to the time and authorship of the NT or OT. Anyone who claims that there are don't know what they are talking about. There is far too much disagreement between historians.

Don't you agree?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
I am very interested in the archaeological evidence that would disprove Moses as being the author...with the guidance of the Holy Spirit that is.
I don't think it is reasonable to expect anyone to be able to prove a negative. The only reasonably avenue is to ask for evidence that supports Moses being the author.
 

Magus

Active Member
The proof that Moses is not the author of the Pentateuch, He died.

Deuteronomy 34:5
So Moses the servant of the LORD died

Furthermore. according to Genesis, the Commandments and Torah already existed during the time of Abraham, which means the chronology is skewed.

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments(Mitsvah), my statutes, and my laws(=Torah)

The story of Moses is historical fiction.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
What part of the Pentateuch date between 1000 BCE to 600 BCE , they are way later, post-Herodotus at the absolute earliest.

The silver scroll dated about 600 BCE quotes a scripture, I gave a range of possible dates, because of unknowns. and also the existence of the Canaanite/Ugarit cuneiform tablets with myths and stories that parallel Genesis in this period.

They was no sophisticated Canaanite culture culture between 1000 BCE to 600 BCE writing novels about mythical giants, Israelites digging up the Land of Canaan, is pretty scarce compared to Egypt and Greece, the vast Kingdom of David Solomon have not being found either, everything in the Bible are from external sources.

This false, there is extensive writing on Canaanite and Ugarit cuneiform tablets concerning legends myths and religious beliefs. and they are not scarce. In fact the clay Canaanite female God idols are common found in Hebrew villages.

The linguistics of Hebrew descends from Ugarite/Canaanite language. The small idols and references are of Canaanite/Ugarit female God and a male God. The vocabulary for God(s) in the Hebrew OT text larger descend from Ugarit/Canaanite vocabulary.

The original creation and flood myths descend from the records in Babylonian cuneiform tablets older than the Greek references.

From: Genesis of Genesis: Where did the biblical story of Creation come from?

The Hebrew Bible opens with an account of creation, starting with what is arguably the most memorable line in the entire tome: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

But this iconic account of God creating the world is not the only account of creation in the Bible. If anything, it seems to be the most recent in a succession of creation myths held sacred by the ancient Hebrews over the eons.

Baal and the sea monsters

The oldest creation myth in the Bible isn't in the Book of Genesis at all. It is alluded to in the Book of Isaiah, in the Book of Job and in Psalms.

The clearest and fullest biblical account of this ancient myth appears in Psalm 74: “For God... Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters. Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness. Thou didst cleave the fountain and the flood: thou driedst up mighty rivers. The day is thine, the night also is thine: thou hast prepared the light and the sun. Thou hast set all the borders of the earth: thou hast made summer and winter” (74:12-17).

An archaeological discovery made in the 20th century shed light on this strange account of creation, revealing it for what it is: an abridged version of the Canaanite creation myth.

Among the ruins of the ancient Canaanite city of Ugarit, tablets were found in a language very similar to Hebrew, recording the many myths believed by the city’s inhabitants - including that creation began with the storm god Baal vanquishing the god of the sea Yam and his sea monster-serpent-dragon helpers.

read more: Genesis of Genesis: Where did the biblical story of Creation come from?"
 
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Akivah

Well-Known Member
I have some questions about this subject, such as.

1) What period of time did the writings of the OT cover and what period of time did the writings of the NT cover?
The phrase Judeo-Christian in your title isn't accurate in this context. Judaism and Christianity have two different bibles and can't be lumped into one. The OT and NT are both Christian bibles.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The proof that Moses is not the author of the Pentateuch, He died.

Deuteronomy 34:5
So Moses the servant of the LORD died

Furthermore. according to Genesis, the Commandments and Torah already existed during the time of Abraham, which means the chronology is skewed.

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments(Mitsvah), my statutes, and my laws(=Torah)

The story of Moses is historical fiction.

Actually, the traditional belief in Judaism and Christianity is that the Moses did not write the entire Pentateuch, and it was complete by others after his death.

Nonetheless the claim that Moses was the primary author is not accepted by most if not all academic Biblical scholars for many reason some have been cited and more to follow.
 

Ted Evans

Active Member
Premium Member
There are no indisputable facts when it comes to the time and authorship of the NT or OT. Anyone who claims that there are don't know what they are talking about. There is far too much disagreement between historians.

Don't you agree?

Absolutely. Disagreement not only between historians but also between Christians...As for me, I am a Bible believing Christian who believes the Judeo-Christian Scriptures are the inspired words of a Holy, infallible, inerrant God, man is none of those, IMO.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Absolutely. Disagreement not only between historians but also between Christians...As for me, I am a Bible believing Christian who believes the Judeo-Christian Scriptures are the inspired words of a Holy, infallible, inerrant God, man is none of those, IMO.
That's fine. But, do you base that on verifiable evidence? Or is it just a feeling or faith-based opinion?
 

Magus

Active Member
Th Hebrew Bible opens with an account of creation, starting with what is arguably the most memorable line in the entire tome: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”
"

That opening of Genesis 1:1 is written in English , the translation is exaggerated, the word 'Created' assumes 'Creation story', but it is not a creation story, the Hebrew word ' בָּרָא ' ( Bara )
is not 'create or created', ( abstract) but a word meaning 'To Fatten' , the Hebrew word for Fat is 'בְּרִי' (Bari ) .

There is also a poetic rhythm in Genesis 1 , Gen 1:1 'Fatten / Filled ' ( Bara ), in Gen 1:2 'Unfilled / empty' (תֹּהוּ בֹּהוּ) ., this was most likely a Hymn, a song sang at the beginning of the New year, or Arah Nisanu , since this is post-winter, the land is unfilled of produce, so it's a hymn to God to fill or fatten the land.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
There are multiple problems with YEDP Theory and problems with this post.

No problems documented by you. Considering it is the prevailing view by most far most academic scholars for the past 70 years or more.

Please address the following problem:

The main problem for the alternative Biblical Maximalist is absolute lack of any text of the Pentateuch prior to 600 BCE,

You were asked to provide evidence for the veracity of the Bible, not evidence to invalidate its teachings.

This was not the question out of the questions asked by the author of the thread. There was no requirement by the author that the purpose was 'to provide evidence for the veracity of the Bible.'

The two questions I am addressing are:

Ted Evans said:
2) When were these writings physically generated?

3) Can the Scripture writings, relative to historical events, be corroborated and if so by what means?


Further, all of YEDP is textual theory, there is no confirmation outside the scriptures for its theorizing.

Indeed, it can be easily countered by a variety of means.

Nothing presented here to argue against the YEDP theory.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
That's fine. But, do you base that on verifiable evidence? Or is it just a feeling or faith-based opinion?

For me it is based on the fact that Jesus Christ rose from the dead. He quoted from the OT frequently so He obviously believed it. The Holy Spirit confirms the scriptures, too.
 
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