How are these Great Beings explained?

Carlita said:

Let me ask, do Hindus in general speak when they pray, out loud, in their head, or more "being"?

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Hindus, if they're trained at all, speak their prayers clearly and slowly in their head, silently, while making eye contact with the murthy. There will sometimes be songs of praise, but same thing, in the head, but during the pujas , all the invoking is done by the priests aloud, although some of their prayers are in silence too.

Bowing isn't part of Hinduism. When a Buddhist comes to a Hindu temple and bows, it looks weird. Hindus prostrate, women on knees, while men lay totally flat (especially in South India). There are several types of prayers, like requests, thanking, and such. I will prostrate full out up to a dozen times at each temple visit, but that wouldn't be the norm. The norm is more likely to be twice, upon entering, and just before leaving. Hindu temples generally have one main shrine, and many side shrines.

Vinayaka said:

Hindus, if they're trained at all, speak their prayers clearly and slowly in their head, silently, while making eye contact with the murthy. There will sometimes be songs of praise, but same thing, in the head, but during the pujas , all the invoking is done by the priests aloud, although some of their prayers are in silence too.

Bowing isn't part of Hinduism. When a Buddhist comes to a Hindu temple and bows, it looks weird. Hindus prostrate, women on knees, while men lay totally flat (especially in South India). There are several types of prayers, like requests, thanking, and such. I will prostrate full out up to a dozen times at each temple visit, but that wouldn't be the norm. The norm is more likely to be twice, upon entering, and just before leaving. Hindu temples generally have one main shrine, and many side shrines.

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I thought bowing and prostration are the same?

I know in Catholicism, we bowed our heads in Mass. We geneflex (rather than prostrate) to the Eucharist. We do the sign of the cross on the way in and out and during blessings throughout Mass.

In Buddhism (well, in temple-buddhism) we bow waist down to the priest and Dhamma. Westerners bow their heads. Non westerners seem to have more of an extensive bow.

None go fully down on the floor as I see Muslims do. Some people who raised in specific cultures may pay their respects through their cultural upbringing even though it's not a "church" rule.

But yeah, they looked at me funny when I bowed to The Buddha. They had a mini statue for interfaith celebrations at the temple. No one said anything. Japanese Buddhist tend to sit on the ground and take off our shoes. I can't imagine a Catholic doing that.

I get so mixed up with the cultural influences with individual religions.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

All the way through the Tanakh G-d does as G-d so chooses. Why did, in every case, only a few people choose to accept the Message of G-d and only time then sees the masses join these hero's of Faith?

It is no different for the Bab and Baha'u'llah, the persecutions started right away and have never stopped.

Baha'u'llah declared His Message to the whole of Humanity, way beyond the National Boundaries.

"....He summoned the monarchs of East and West collectively, and some among them individually, to recognize the Day of God and to acknowledge the One promised in the scriptures of the religions professed by the recipients of His summons. "Never since the beginning of the world", Bahá’u’lláh declares, "hath the Message been so openly proclaimed."

Link to the "Summons of The Lord of Hosts". - Bahá'í Reference Library - The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, Page 1

Regards Tony

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All the way through the Tanach, the prophets are not changing the system that Moses put into place, they're affirming it and attempting to return the Jews to it. That's quite different then Jesus, Muhammad, Mirza Husayn and Haile Selassie who are attempting to convert or completely fabricate a new system. Because of that, they don't have the initial revelation as a base to stand on.

Tumah said:

All the way through the Tanach, the prophets are not changing the system that Moses put into place, they're affirming it and attempting to return the Jews to it. That's quite different then Jesus, Muhammad, Mirza Husayn and Haile Selassie who are attempting to convert or completely fabricate a new system. Because of that, they don't have the initial revelation as a base to stand on.

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It can also be shown that Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah also confirm Moses.

I hope you get to look one day. Be well and happy always.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

It can also be shown that Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah also confirm Moses.

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That's not what I said though, is it?

Tumah said:

That's not what I said though, is it?

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I can see what you said within what I offered.

But in the end, it is not anything you wish to discuss.

I am happy you are strong in Faith and are awaiting to be confirmed in that Faith. I hope you find the comfirmation either by the way you expect or do not expect.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I can see what you said within what I offered.

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You can see what you want to see. But the difference between the Jewish prophets and everyone from Jesus onward is clear. The Jewish prophets turned people to Moses' Law. Everyone else created something new. To create something new, you need a new national revelation, just like the first time.

If someone announces that he affirms Moses and the Mosaic Law, and he is here to teach everyone about Scientology, you are (hopefully) not going to say that since he stated that he affirms Moses, the national revelation that happened then can lend authenticity to his teachings about Scientology.

What you are saying is no different.

Tumah said:

You can see what you want to see. But the difference between the Jewish prophets and everyone from Jesus onward is clear. The Jewish prophets turned people to Moses' Law. Everyone else created something new. To create something new, you need a new national revelation, just like the first time.

If someone announces that he affirms Moses and the Mosaic Law, and he is here to teach everyone about Scientology, you are (hopefully) not going to say that since he stated that he affirms Moses, the national revelation that happened then can lend authenticity to his teachings about Scientology.

What you are saying is no different.

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As there is On God, it should not be that hard to see if a teaching is from God or from Man.

It may depend on if we are looking for the material aspects, or for spiritual fulfillment and meaning.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

As there is On God, it should not be that hard to see if a teaching is from God or from Man.

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First of all, no. Anyone can mimic principles and by your evaluation, that would prove it was from G-d.

Second of all, G-d Himself chose to provide a national revelation to support Moses. Clearly He disagrees with you.

It may depend on if we are looking for the material aspects, or for spiritual fulfillment and meaning.

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Prove that such a thing exists and is not you reading into a text what you want to see.

Tumah said:

First of all, no. Anyone can mimic principles and by your evaluation, that would prove it was from G-d.

Second of all, G-d Himself chose to provide a national revelation to support Moses. Clearly He disagrees with you.


Prove that such a thing exists and is not you reading into a text what you want to see.

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Well, I would offer in that case, a Global Revelation to all Nations may indeed be worth considering. Thus the Jews as a Nation, are offered the same Message and on acceptance, fulfill their destiny.

The Texts say what they say. G-d filfills the requirement of these scriptures in a way G-d so pleases to do. If we pre interpret, those interpretations become veils and clouds that limit our ability to see the Light of G-d.

Is there anywhere in scripture where what Man expected, actually happend as they thought it would?

We can read Ezekiel 43:4 and see "The glory of the LORD entered the temple through the gate facing east.

Thus Baha'u'llah (Glory of the Lord), did come through the Bab (Gate) from Persia (East) to the Holy land. Not by himself by by persecutions and banishment.

Then we have this to support Persia; Jeremiah 49:38"I will set my throne in Elam and destroy her king and officials," declares the LORD. Baha'u'llah did indeed bring the Kings and Officals down from their thrones and places of power.

How can any ordinary Man that is not supported by G-d filfill all prophetic scriptures with no input to do so?

We need to consider this.

Regards Tony

Carlita said:

I thought bowing and prostration are the same?

I know in Catholicism, we bowed our heads in Mass. We geneflex (rather than prostrate) to the Eucharist. We do the sign of the cross on the way in and out and during blessings throughout Mass.

In Buddhism (well, in temple-buddhism) we bow waist down to the priest and Dhamma. Westerners bow their heads. Non westerners seem to have more of an extensive bow.

None go fully down on the floor as I see Muslims do. Some people who raised in specific cultures may pay their respects through their cultural upbringing even though it's not a "church" rule.

But yeah, they looked at me funny when I bowed to The Buddha. They had a mini statue for interfaith celebrations at the temple. No one said anything. Japanese Buddhist tend to sit on the ground and take off our shoes. I can't imagine a Catholic doing that.

I get so mixed up with the cultural influences with individual religions.

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You just have to go and see it all at each place to get a fuller picture.

Vinayaka said:

You just have to go and see it all at each place to get a fuller picture.

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Ive seen that done but never knew what religion they were. What is it called? My friend did it (she is christian) this and said she couldnt get down further enough for her god. A form of submission.

Carlita said:

Ive seen that done but never knew what religion they were. What is it called? My friend did it (she is christian) this and said she couldnt get down further enough for her god. A form of submission.

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Probably more than one religion does it. When I thought of bowing, it is when a person is standing, but then just tips their upper body forward a bit, with hands pressed together. I've seen Buddhists do that. A form of penance in Hinduism is to lie prostate, and then roll around a temple. Lots of faiths kneel, and then touch their forwards to the earth, like the standard picture of Muslims in prayer. Hindu women do that, although it's lower, from sitting on their legs position. In North Indian style most men do that too. Yes it;s submission ... your will to God's will.

Vinayaka said:

Probably more than one religion does it. When I thought of bowing, it is when a person is standing, but then just tips their upper body forward a bit, with hands pressed together. I've seen Buddhists do that. A form of penance in Hinduism is to lie prostrate, and then roll around a temple. Lots of faiths kneel, and then touch their forwards to the earth, like the standard picture of Muslims in prayer. Hindu women do that, although it's lower, from sitting on their legs position. In North Indian style most men do that too. Yes it;s submission ... your will to God's will.

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I don't know about other Catholics, but when I geneflex (put kneel with one knee and tap the sign the cross forehead, chest, left shoulder, right) it is more respect and honor to Christ and not submission. I've seen a group of Muslims all the time prostrate, lay down, bow, all in ritual.

You're right, in Buddhism, we put our hands together standing and half prostate to bow. I never heard it defined as submission but respect and devotion. However, I don't know how other Buddhist countries would define it outside Japanese.

I understand the purpose of submission but honestly, I don't understand how god is so important to submit yourself to. I mean, my mother saved my life through my illness and my grandmother in spirit saved me from being hit by a car, but I don't see any reason to submit to her or my family in spirit but say thank you and give an offering of gratitude.

I mean, in general, why would someone submit themselves to god? Some people take their lives for god but then The Buddha taught the opposite (another different paradigm than Bahai) so I honestly don't understand that.

Carlita said:

I don't know about other Catholics, but when I geneflex (put kneel with one knee and tap the sign the cross forehead, chest, left shoulder, right) it is more respect and honor to Christ and not submission. I've seen a group of Muslims all the time prostrate, lay down, bow, all in ritual.

You're right, in Buddhism, we put our hands together standing and half prostate to bow. I never heard it defined as submission but respect and devotion. However, I don't know how other Buddhist countries would define it outside Japanese.

I understand the purpose of submission but honestly, I don't understand how god is so important to submit yourself to. I mean, my mother saved my life through my illness and my grandmother in spirit saved me from being hit by a car, but I don't see any reason to submit to her or my family in spirit but say thank you and give an offering of gratitude.

I mean, in general, why would someone submit themselves to god? Some people take their lives for god but then The Buddha taught the opposite (another different paradigm than Bahai) so I honestly don't understand that.

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God, in Hinduism, could easily be considered as your own innate intelligence, coming from the superconscious (intuitive, wise) mind latent within you. In Hinduism, unlike Abrahamism, God is knowable, and right there, in a moment's notice, ready for the beckoning, and then use. So submission can simply mean beseeching wisdom, or trading off the instinctive selfish nature, (ego) for a higher nature.

So it's another core difference.

Vinayaka said:

God, in Hinduism, could easily be considered as your own innate intelligence, coming from the superconscious (intuitive, wise) mind latent within you. In Hinduism, unlike Abrahamism, God is knowable, and right there, in a moment's notice, ready for the beckoning, and then use. So submission can simply mean beseeching wisdom, or trading off the instinctive selfish nature, (ego) for a higher nature.

So it's another core difference.

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So basically you're learning to be yourself in god? (or as god?) Beseeching wisdom in/as your non-ego self to understand god?

I can't figure how to phrase it. I have an unorthodox view of Catholicism; but, the concept sounds the similar except that the self/ego and mystical part isn't dependent or in oneself and devotion within oneself (right?) but the mysticism is within an external party and instead of beseeching wisdom in oneself (right?) it's going outside to find wisdom within. I say similar because we are all human with a mind, neuron's, body, and so forth.

Carlita said:

So basically you're learning to be yourself in god? (or as god?) Beseeching wisdom in/as your non-ego self to understand god?

I can't figure how to phrase it. I have an unorthodox view of Catholicism; but, the concept sounds the similar except that the self/ego and mystical part isn't dependent or in oneself and devotion within oneself (right?) but the mysticism is within an external party and instead of beseeching wisdom in oneself (right?) it's going outside to find wisdom within. I say similar because we are all human with a mind, neuron's, body, and so forth.

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I'm not sure. Words get in the way. In Hinduism, mind is separated into 3 strata, instinctive, intellectual, and superconscious. Some words like 'self' can be used in all 3. So it's hard to know what we're talking about.

Vinayaka said:

I'm not sure. Words get in the way. In Hinduism, mind is separated into 3 strata, instinctive, intellectual, and superconscious. Some words like 'self' can be used in all 3. So it's hard to know what we're talking about.

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I don't know. I looked it up and it's confusing. I don't separate the mind in that manner. I see spirituality comes from the mind; what or who people call god comes from the mind; our interpretations come from the mind; and how we define ourselves and so forth are within our mind.

What external things we experience without us, it would have no definition. So, prayer etc would always be directed at "cleaning" the mind. Once the mind is cleared, all the spiritual things people are attached to like virtues would appear.

I would assume all three strata would be the combination of the nature of the mind? (except in Mahayana Buddhism, there is some mystical concept of Buddha nature but it's not defined as god but understanding, kamma, and dhamma.)

Vinayaka said:

Just what that Supreme Being is varies.
Meditation varies. Even withing Hinduism, it can mean a ton of things. I don't know what it means in Baha'i'. It's one of those catch-all vague words. In my sampradaya, it means sitting cross-legged on the floor, preferably in lotus, breathing diaphragmatically, staying perfectly still, seeing light within the cranium, being totally unaware of external stuff like noise, and staying in that place of awareness being aware of only itself for extended periods. I seriously doubt that is what it means in Baha'ispeak.
Prayer varies. We use icons, murthies. Fire. Do you?
Devotion, I don't know what that means in Baha'i' lingo. I don't speak Baha'i'.
Virtues are probably about 95% in common, sure.
Service as a key act, sure.

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We are free to choose how we meditate whether seated or in lotus position is up to the individual. It depends on what the focus is. If we meditate on earthy things we become informed of them and if spiritual we can reach higher levels of spiritual understanding.

But learning to be spiritual must involve deeds and service for it is by practising virtues we grow not just by thinking or talking about them.

So for Baha'is individually and collectively any form of searching must involve - 'how can we do better or be better'.

The bottom line for a Baha'i is to transform his inner being to become a source of goodness to the world. So no matter how much we know our Writings we have a long, long way to go to becoming true servants of humanity in deeds not just words.

loverofhumanity said:

We are free to choose how we meditate whether seated or in lotus position is up to the individual. It depends on what the focus is. If we meditate on earthy things we become informed of them and if spiritual we can reach higher levels of spiritual understanding.

But learning to be spiritual must involve deeds and service for it is by practising virtues we grow not just by thinking or talking about them.

So for Baha'is individually and collectively any form of searching must involve - 'how can we do better or be better'.

The bottom line for a Baha'i is to transform his inner being to become a source of goodness to the world. So no matter how much we know our Writings we have a long, long way to go to becoming true servants of humanity in deeds not just words.

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Yes, that is the Baha'i' POV. Not the Hindu POV, but all is well.