Eternal Hell, Scripture or ignorant theory?

Truth101 · Jul 14, 2006

Blueman says:

What does John 3:16 say??? I believe it mentions eternal life, correct? Also, the 1000 years is a reference of Christ reign on earth after His second coming. Jesus spoke of eternal life in the New Testament my friend.

Jesus spoke of "aionios" life, not ETERNAL life. You will obviously not understand this at this time. I dont continue to talk in circles so you need to review the post concerning the words "aion" and "aionios" and if you still dont understand than for your own benifit take a couple of classes on grammar. I am not saying this to belittle you. I honestly do not believe you understand what the translators did wrong. Translating these words into words of infinute duration have done nothing but cause scripture after scripture to contradict each other hence, the talking in circle between us. I give a scripture then you come up with another one in order to use it against the scripture I have first given as if the 2 scriptures contradict each other. Im sorry but it is not the scriptures it is the translation and interpretation.

You said it yourself Christ reign is on the earth for 1000 years. Not eternal yet the words "aion" and "aionios" are used in these passages which speak of this kingdom. So you answered it for yourself.

God bless, Dave

blueman · Jul 14, 2006

Truth101 said:
Blueman says:

Jesus spoke of "aionios" life, not ETERNAL life. You will obviously not understand this at this time. I dont continue to talk in circles so you need to review the post concerning the words "aion" and "aionios" and if you still dont understand than for your own benifit take a couple of classes on grammar. I am not saying this to belittle you. I honestly do not believe you understand what the translators did wrong. Translating these words into words of infinute duration have done nothing but cause scripture after scripture to contradict each other hence, the talking in circle between us. I give a scripture then you come up with another one in order to use it against the scripture I have first given as if the 2 scriptures contradict each other. Im sorry but it is not the scriptures it is the translation and interpretation.

You said it yourself Christ reign is on the earth for 1000 years. Not eternal yet the words "aion" and "aionios" are used in these passages which speak of this kingdom. So you answered it for yourself.

God bless, Dave

So what happens to us Dave after a 1,000 years?????

joeboonda · Jul 14, 2006

Truth101, I am glad you believe in Jesus as your Saviour, as do I and Blueman and Bibleonly. I am glad you have assurance of salvation, as I also believe I am eternally secure in Christ. You have a lot to say in your defense and I admire that. But I disagree with you, somewhat.

We know the Bible says its appointed to a man once to die and then the judgement. That we live, then die, then we are judged for our life on earth, what we did with Jesus, or the light that was given us.

Jesus warned of Hell more than He spoke of Heaven, and He said let the wheat grow with the tares, and at the judgement the tares, goats, wicked, etc. God will tell them to depart from me ye workers of iniquity into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, and that the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever, and they have no rest day nor night. They are thrown into the Lake of Fire, where the Beast and the False Prophet (real people) ARE.

Satan wants to lure people into not taking care of their salvation in this life with the lie that they can do it in the next. But TODAY is the day of salvation. We are judged for THIS life, no chance of salvation beyond the grave. It is very clear Bible teaching. We may not like it, but it is what it says. We are to tell people now, the good news so they can hear it and accept it and have eternal life with God, not eternal separation from God.

Jesus came to freely save all who would accept Him, but man has freewill not to, and soon the heart hardens and they do not hear the gentle knocking of the Holy Spirit, which at first was thunderously loud, but now they are deaf to it, and die in their sins, with no covering, they are lost.

Satan wants to lure us into NOT telling them about Jesus, with the idea that, ah they can get it right in the next life. But we must tell them now about the free gift, that by simply coming to Jesus sins and all, and just accepting the free gift, BAM, He saves us freely, instantly, undeservedly and eternally. When someone sees that great love, and has accepted the gift, then the desire to be more like Christ, to grow in grace, to turn from sin begins to grow, because God is in us, we are new creatures, born again.

I got off subject a bit, lol. I will just say, we have this life, then the judgement, if we have accepted Christ's blood to pay for our sins, then we don't have to pay for them, if we don't, we don't have His righteousness imputed unto us, but our own which is as filthy rags, then we cannot be in God's presence, and will be cast out. Its that simple.

Truth101 · Jul 15, 2006

blueman said:
So what happens to us Dave after a 1,000 years?????

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired (the kingdom ends), Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. (After this "aionios" [age lasting] life in the kindgom for 1000 years in peace the devil is once again released to do his job again. It is this life "the kingdom age" that is promised to the overcomers. Remember the wicked lost dead are still DEAD at this point they have not been ressurected, this is the "aionios" (age lasting) death refered to in contrast to "aionios" life here in the peace of the Kingdom.)
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (lets look at another sister scripture to this one)
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(after the judgment EVERY MANS work that is burned OF WHAT SORT IT IS shall suffer loss BUT, BUT, BUT, HE SHALL BE SAVED through the LAKE OF FIRE(not literal physical fire GOD IS THE CONSUMING FIRE) which they are immediately thrown into will then chastise and correct and heal the individual.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
You need to understand what this lake is. It is not a literal lake of literal fire and brimstone, it is symbolic of the wrath of God seperating the man from the madness, (so to speak). God IS the CONSUMING FIRE which will burn away all infirmity of wickedness and doubt in every stubborn individual. All through the scriptures we read about how God has used fire as an example of purifying all it touches. In the old testament (which is a shadow of things to come) God used physical fire to destroy physical flesh in order to cleanse the land of the wicked purifying the land. These things were done as examples of spiritual things.God gives examples of the purifying character of fire. Fire will seperate all useless material from gold with the end result being pure from any contaminates. Take the demon possessed man in the new testament that was made whole because of Christ. That man received salvation (healing) that day. Jesus cast out the infirmity(sin) that made this man sick (wicked). The man was left fully clothed in his right mind kneeling at the feet of Jesus.What was this mans next move? He ran through the streets telling all what the Lord had done for him. Giving glory to God. Do you think all those who return from the lake of fire will not be more than greatful than this man? Of course they will. Those who believe now, are saved by faith. Those who are save through the fire are saved by sight (not a pleasant one mind you) This also was an example of what the Lake of fire will do, why? Because GOD IS THE CONSUMING FIRE that will remove any such things from the person HIMSELF. Because this is the wrath of God chastising those He loves it will not exactly be a pleasant experiece for them to say the least. My intention is not to make light of the wrath of God on the wicked but to make known the truth concerning the limited duration of it. It is not eternal but remedial and corrective.

It is after this that God can be ALL IN ALL. If you are questioning what happens after this you can search the scriptures till the cows come home but this is as far as scripture speaks in contrast to those who believe that God has so much to say about eternity.
Truth is He has only spoken of His doings concerning the ages and that is all He has shared with us at this time.

God bless, Dave

Truth101 · Jul 15, 2006

joeboonda said:
Truth101, I am glad you believe in Jesus as your Saviour, as do I and Blueman and Bibleonly. I am glad you have assurance of salvation, as I also believe I am eternally secure in Christ. You have a lot to say in your defense and I admire that. But I disagree with you, somewhat.

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I enjoy sharing with all I meet the things which the Lord has entrusted to me. It can get a little frustrating at times with so much opposition but the Lord is my strength. So lets get to the point.

We know the Bible says its appointed to a man once to die and then the judgement. That we live, then die, then we are judged for our life on earth, what we did with Jesus, or the light that was given us.

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Ok since the scriptures say it is appointed for man ONCE TO DIE, then the scripture is correct. My problem lies in mans theory contradicting this passage. If man is to die once, how then can they die again when (as orthodox christianity teaches) they recieve an ETERNAL death? That would be two deaths. according to Christianity the second death is the final one, only these people are really not dead according to them. They continue to live in death, conscious of all their pain and misery. How can one be dead and yet experience suffering. The bible teaches us that when man dies he knows nothing, he sees nothing, he has no thought. So how, in all of scripture does someone die but not really be dead not once but twice? The aionios death that is spoken in scripture is not mentioned again after these are thrown into the lake of fire. Why? Because they have already been in aionios death while the elect were granted aionios life (in the kingdom) for a 1000 years. The truth is, is that the second death is the same death that the elect willfully experience with joy here on earth in their lives. It is not a literal death but merely a death to self (spiritually not literally like our physical death. The elect have been chosen of God here on earth to submit themselves wholly to God denying self whereas those who have not been chosen will experience this through the lake of fire when everything selfish, all there wickedness is burned away.

Jesus warned of Hell more than He spoke of Heaven, and He said let the wheat grow with the tares, and at the judgement the tares, goats, wicked, etc. God will tell them to depart from me ye workers of iniquity into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, and that the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever, and they have no rest day nor night. They are thrown into the Lake of Fire, where the Beast and the False Prophet (real people) ARE.

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I have been over this with others before and they have had to admit that Christ spoke more of the Kingdom than He did of Hell. But nevertheless this proves nothing either way. Again He says, "into aionios fire". I will not get into the age thing again because I have covered this enough. Next it says "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for "ever"(aion) and "ever" (aion). If you believe that this word means forever, how can you have forever AND ever again? If forever means eternity why the second "ever", since there is nothing longer than eternity. The second ever is usless and adds nothing more to forever. The word here is "ice" which has many definitions depending on usage. The scripture makes more sence when defining the words aion properly as age and use the word "to" which usage would demand it, and you have "age to age".

Satan wants to lure people into not taking care of their salvation in this life with the lie that they can do it in the next. But TODAY is the day of salvation. We are judged for THIS life, no chance of salvation beyond the grave. It is very clear Bible teaching. We may not like it, but it is what it says. We are to tell people now, the good news so they can hear it and accept it and have eternal life with God, not eternal separation from God.

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No hope beyond the grave? I can guarantee Lazarus would have something else to say about that. Not to mention the numerous others whom Jesu raised from the dead and all the disciples raised. Do you think Jesus just raised the dead for fun? Or do you believe that these events carry with them a greater spiritual meaning? Jesus was making known that death and the grave could not stay His hand. He had the power to go beyond the grave since He himself overcame death and the grave.

Jesus came to freely save all who would accept Him, but man has freewill not to, and soon the heart hardens and they do not hear the gentle knocking of the Holy Spirit, which at first was thunderously loud, but now they are deaf to it, and die in their sins, with no covering, they are lost.

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No, He came and gave His life as a ransom for the world. He promised Aionios life (in the kingdom age) to those who would accept Him and follow Him and keep His Fathers commandments. So you say that you freely of your own freewill chose to accept Him and those who do not do so with their own freewill. Well scripture says different. "you did not chose me, but I have chosen you", "No man comes to the Father less the spirit draw Him", " there is none that seeketh after God", etc, etc. So since scripture has refuted your claim to freely with your own freewill chose to believe and follow God than you must admit that you were chosen not because of any special quality you may have but that God has chosen you merely because it pleases Him than those who are not chosen and not drawn by the spirit and not seeking after God cannot be denying of their own freewill either. They must be drawn and called in order to believe anything just like you and I. Freewill plays no part in salvation. Salvation is a free gift. Admitance into the kingdom (1000 years) is not. It comes at a great price.....Your life (commited to the work of God).

Satan wants to lure us into NOT telling them about Jesus, with the idea that, ah they can get it right in the next life. But we must tell them now about the free gift, that by simply coming to Jesus sins and all, and just accepting the free gift, BAM, He saves us freely, instantly, undeservedly and eternally. When someone sees that great love, and has accepted the gift, then the desire to be more like Christ, to grow in grace, to turn from sin begins to grow, because God is in us, we are new creatures, born again.

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I believe that more will be saved after death than in life but I never stop telling every person who knows me about CHrist and what He has done for us. You dont have to accept the gift to be saved. It is not dependant on anything we do. Jesus said it is finished. Done, nothing more to do. The work is done but the end result is believed by faith by us because we cannot see it yet. The work of the kingdom on the other hand is in progress right now. The elect die daily to self and are looking with hope for the comeing of the Kingdom.

I got off subject a bit, lol. I will just say, we have this life, then the judgement, if we have accepted Christ's blood to pay for our sins, then we don't have to pay for them, if we don't, we don't have His righteousness imputed unto us, but our own which is as filthy rags, then we cannot be in God's presence, and will be cast out. Its that simple.

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Yes it is very simple. The judgment is a trial by fire.
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.(good or evil)
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Very simple, God bless, Dave

bibleonly · Jul 18, 2006

OT "eternity" rebuttal
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of
Sodom" (Ezek. 16:53-55). Sodom has a promise of restoration. WOW.

Maybe if you would research the context, you would find out that the historical Sodom is not in view in this passage of scripture that you erroneously used as a proof text

And I will one by one disprove all our your blasphemous teaching that if followed can only cause the unaware to stumble. Your high places that you have rear up will be cut down one by one.

This lack of searching the context out before spouting out is your common trademark which leads to false conclusions. First prove in this context that God is speaking to the ancient city of Sodom. You wont find it in this passage, that the historical Sodom will be restore, because the historical Sodom isnt in view. One down, the others will follow soon like dominos.

Katzpur · Jul 18, 2006

bibleonly said:
OT "eternity" rebuttal
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of
Sodom" (Ezek. 16:53-55). Sodom has a promise of restoration. WOW.

Maybe if you would research the context, you would find out that the historical Sodom is not in view in this passage of scripture that you erroneously used as a proof text

And I will one by one disprove all our your blasphemous teaching that if followed can only cause the unaware to stumble. Your high places that you have rear up will be cut down one by one.

This lack of searching the context out before spouting out is your common trademark which leads to false conclusions. First prove in this context that God is speaking to the ancient city of Sodom. You wont find it in this passage, that the historical Sodom will be restore, because the historical Sodom isnt in view. One down, the others will follow soon like dominos.

Just curious... Do you think your message will be any more effective when posted in a huge typeface or are you just practicing to become a hell and damnation preacher someday? I keep trying to imagine Christ screaming at the top of His lungs at the people he wanted to reach, and somehow I just can't do it.

bibleonly · Jul 18, 2006

NO, it's for people that may have poor eyesight.

Katzpur · Jul 18, 2006

bibleonly said:
NO, it's for people that may have poor eyesight.

That's awfully nice of you, but I can assure you it's really not necessary. If what you have to say is worth reading, believe me, people will make a point of reading it. If it's not worth saying, saying it in an enormous font, in bright colors and italics isn't going to make one ounce of difference. In fact, it actually takes away from any credibility you might have and serves to make you look desperate. Is that what you want? Truth101, this applies to you, too.

bibleonly · Jul 18, 2006

Debate the issues, not the font type!

Truth101 · Jul 18, 2006

bibleonly said:
OT "eternity" rebuttal
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of
Sodom" (Ezek. 16:53-55). Sodom has a promise of restoration. WOW.

Maybe if you would research the context, you would find out that the historical Sodom is not in view in this passage of scripture that you erroneously used as a proof text

And I will one by one disprove all our your blasphemous teaching that if followed can only cause the unaware to stumble. Your high places that you have rear up will be cut down one by one.

This lack of searching the context out before spouting out is your common trademark which leads to false conclusions. First prove in this context that God is speaking to the ancient city of Sodom. You wont find it in this passage, that the historical Sodom will be restore, because the historical Sodom isnt in view. One down, the others will follow soon like dominos.

Your posts seem to have the same presupposition everytime. You first attempt to slander my character and then you make a comment on a scripture mainly stating i'm taking something out of context but then you fail to, if at all, explain what the context actually is and then you proudly boast of discrediting or refuting my understanding. I really cannot believe anyone would fall for your attempted scholarship here. You attack a persons character then you state your opinion of scripture with no proof whatsoever and call it victory. No wonder you think that Christ would still remain victorious even with death and the grave having more victems than Christ has followers.
God Bless, Dave

Truth101 · Jul 19, 2006

Katzpur said:
That's awfully nice of you, but I can assure you it's really not necessary. If what you have to say is worth reading, believe me, people will make a point of reading it. If it's not worth saying, saying it in an enormous font, in bright colors and italics isn't going to make one ounce of difference. In fact, it actually takes away from any credibility you might have and serves to make you look desperate. Is that what you want? Truth101, this applies to you, too.

Yes I try to keep my font small as my posts are fairly long. I use the colored font if it is a thread I started so others can place my defence or rebuttle easier.

God bless, Dave

bibleonly · Jul 19, 2006

Your the one that brought Sodom" (Ezek. 16:53-55). Sodom has a promise of restoration. WOW. Without proving the Context. I am giving you a third chance, since you didn't do it on your first two. Any teacher worth their salt would check out the context before declaring Thus saith the LORD. Stop backbiting and prove the Context.

Truth101 · Jul 19, 2006

bibleonly said:
Debate the issues, not the font type!

I have told you before about your insistant need to just prove me wrong and now your boldness has just revealed your true agenda. You say you will eventually take down all of my beliefs like dominos one by one. You are assuming that everything I have to say is unscriptural before you have even checked them out scripturally. It is more than obvious that you are only after your own glory as you have made that plainly clear. You have no intention of giving God glory for anything as you also believe that it is by your freewill choice to believe and understand and turn to the Lord. I will not take part in giving glory to any man and because you insist on turning this into a competition then you will not find anyone to feed your hunger for a win. This is a search for truth not for recognition

Good luck in you search, Dave

bibleonly · Jul 19, 2006

Truth101 said:have told you before about your insistant need to just prove me wrong
and now your boldness has just revealed your true agenda. You say you will eventually take down all of my beliefs like dominos one by one.

Its call earnestly contenting for the faith Jude 3 and instructing those that oppose themselves. 2Tim. 2:25
I want to prove the false teaching wrong. I care for your soul.

Truth101 said You are assuming that everything I have to say is unscriptural before you have even checked them out scripturally.

I have check it out, thats why I am starting to oppose this false doctrine. One by one.

Truth101 said It is more than obvious that you are only after your own glory as you have made that plainly clear. You have no intention of giving God glory

He that speaks of himself seeks his own glory: but he that seeks his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Truth101 said for anything as you also believe that it is by your freewill choice to believe and understand and turn to the Lord.

I would never ascribe to the false doctrine of freewill, Again you assume and make conclusions that carry on in your studies.

Truth101 said I will not take part in giving glory to any man and because you insist on turning this into a competition then you will not find anyone to feed your hunger for a win. This is a search for truth not for recognition

I dont know you and you dont know me its anonymous here, so there no need for recognition, I could knock on your door tomorrow and you wont recognize me or I you.

No, this is about truth, Let the scriptures be true and every man a liar, That goes for me as well as for you.

Again for the fourth time prove that the context is talking about historical Sodom. Then I will go on to your next proof-text. One by one.

Truth101 · Jul 19, 2006

bibleonly said:
Your the one that brought Sodom" (Ezek. 16:53-55). Sodom has a promise of restoration. WOW. Without proving the Context. I am giving you a third chance, since you didn't do it on your first two. Any teacher worth their salt would check out the context before declaring Thus saith the LORD. Stop backbiting and prove the Context.

You have no idea what you are talking about here or any other time you have claimed "context", "context". Everytime you have accused me of ignoring context I have addressed it and proven it and you have made no contention after the fact. You continue to just seek out posts where you just might find something to snare me with and you fail everytime. Once you fail and I prove my point you seem to ignore it and move on to something else.

You will need to check this out for yourself again because you are wrong "again". This is clearly speaking about the one and ONLY Sodom which was destroyed by God. Those people of Sodom have a promise of restoration. If you are indicating that I was saying that Sodom would one day in history be a literal city again you made the mistake. Thats the only reason I can understand for you to scream "context", "context" at me again.

This is why you do not understand scripture, because you literize all of it and have no idea of the spiritual significance at all. When God is speaking of cities being restored He is speaking of the people one day being restored through Christ. It is Christ who saves and those who are not the elect will be cleased of all their unrighteousness through the fire. Isreal also has a promise of restoration by God and God in this same "context" is telling His people how they are more accountable for their actions than Sodom.

Again you have discredited not hing but your own understanding of the scriptures once again.
God bless, Dave

bibleonly · Jul 19, 2006

The context of Ezekiel is found in verse 2
Cause Jerusalem to know her Abominations.
Verse 5 God then declares His Love for Her. When no other pitied her. Verse 8 God entered into a covenant and she became His.
Verse 9-14 Jerusalem was clothed and decked and was exceeding beautiful with everything that God provided for her.

But then starting in verse 15 Jerusalem has been found to have played a whore. She has become unfaithful. She was spiritually married to God and now God would Judge her as one that breaks wedlock, verse 38

Verse 39-42 God talks about the anger that He will pour out, because of her unfaithfulness to Him.
So far no mention of historical Sodom.
The context Historically, Jerusalem is about to be destroyed by the Babylonians. In 587 B.C.
Israel her sister had previously been destroyed by the Assyrians in 709 B.C.
Israel, had at one time their capital in Samaria. So in verse 46 God speaks about Judahs sister Samaria, God speaks very plainly.
And your elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister, that dwells at your right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.
God is equating Israel to the north, spiritually as the Sodom that is view. She also was married to God and become unfaithful and God judgments that he pronouns on her had already come to pass at the time of Ezekiels declaration.
The remnants of these 10 tribes joined with the nation of Judah.
This is what verse 53 is referring to in this language:
When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of the captives in the midst of them.
The captives were in the midst of Jerusalem, not the destroyed historical city.
God has always left a remnant chosen by grace that He had always planned to save. Isaiah 1:8-10:
And the daughter of Zion is left as a besieged city.
Clearly talking about Jerusalem,
Except the LORD of hosts had left to us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom,
The historical Sodom came under physical damnation, which pointed to the ETERNAL DAMNATION that God has in view. Notice the language if God didnt save a people for himself, none would have been saved.
Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom:
Without skipping a beat God equates Jerusalem as Sodom, as He commands them to Hear and then to:
Give ear to the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah,
Spiritually Judah and Israel had become spiritually as wicked as Sodom. God was again going to show a historical judgment upon a nation for there wickedness. Again this historical judgment is pointing to a far greater destruction than the physical historical. They would point to the spiritual eternal destruction of Hypocrites and vipers that paid lip service to God, but their heart was far from Him, these adulterers would receive the greater damnation spoken about by our Lord Christ.
Clearly Christ at the cross restore and return His people to their former estate . When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men. Ephesians 4:8
At the cross is how all Israel is Saved.
No mention of an historical Sodom being saved, but an ETERNAL SPIRITUAL Israel that he chose from the foundation of the world.
The true Israel of God and not the hypocrites that are equated with Sodom.

Truth101 · Jul 19, 2006

Biblyonly said:

And your elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister, that dwells at your right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.
God is equating Israel to the north, spiritually as the Sodom that is view. She also was married to God and become unfaithful and God judgments that he pronouns on her had already come to pass at the time of Ezekiels declaration.

He is not talking in spiritual terms in this passage except for their condition. They were whores, spiritually speaking. He is not refering to a spiritual Sodom. He is speaking of the literal condition of the literal Sodom and contrasting Isreals spiritual adultery with the spiritual adultery of Sodom but, He is clearly speaking of the literal people of Sodom and their condition before He destroyed them.

Eze 16:48As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.
Here He is clearly contrasting them to the literal Sodom again and revealing to them that they are worse off than the condition Sodom was before the Lord destroyed them. This continues throughout these verses.

Eze 16:50And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
Here He makes no mistake about it that He is talking about literal Sodoms physical destruction.

Eze 16:60Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.
We are told earlier that Sodom was only half as guilty as Jerusalem yet God destroyed them completely and now He will show Jerusalem mercy and remember His covanent with them.
Eze 16:61 Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.
Here He is telling them that they will be ashamed when they recieve thy siters, the elder AND the younger in their eventual restoration when Jerusalem is restored as well. Now, you beleive that Jerusalem has a promise of restoration so why do you insist that these verses are not including Sodom and Samaria as well?
Will Jerusalems sisters be distant relatives in hell?

Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.
Now, I am not going to debate about any spiritual significance spoken here as there is but, not as you are stating.
Jerusalem is promised restoration,Sodom is promised restoration,Samaria is promised restoration. THOU and thy daughters shall return to their former estate.

The spiritual significance makes no difference in the eventual restoration of these peoples. You have taken a false doctrine of eternal punishment and attempted to use these verses as proof of it when their is only mention of restoration. Not one single word portraying any eternal torment whatsoever.

I am not denying nor have that Jerusalem had become as spiritually wicked as Sodom. The fact remains that God told them that they were worse off than Sodom yet, yet, He still had mercy on them and in the process promised the restoration of Sodom and Samaria. [SIZE=+0]

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]Give ear to the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah,
Spiritually Judah and Israel had become spiritually as wicked as Sodom. God was again going to show a historical judgment upon a nation for there wickedness. Again this historical judgment is pointing to a far greater destruction than the physical historical. They would point to the spiritual eternal destruction of Hypocrites and vipers that paid lip service to God, but their heart was far from Him, these adulterers would receive the greater damnation spoken about by our Lord Christ.

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God destroyed their flesh and this was no shadow pointing to eternal destruction. Your eternal destruction is in your own mind not in these passages. As I said and you can plainly see in all of these verses we read nothing of the sort. You are adding to the word of God. The message is the exact opposite of what you are saying. [SIZE=+0]

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]Clearly Christ at the cross restore and return His people to their former estate .

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I agree in part. I agree that it is through the cross that ALL will be restored. Including Sodom and Samaria. Absolutely all mankind. [/SIZE][/SIZE]
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[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men. Ephesians 4:8
At the cross is how all Israel is Saved.
No mention of an historical Sodom being saved, but an ETERNAL SPIRITUAL Israel that he chose from the foundation of the world.

The true Israel of God and not the hypocrites that are equated with Sodom.[/SIZE]

Yes the elect remnant of Isreal as well as the elect of the gentiles. 7000 elect Jews and 144,000 elect Gentiles. The 7000 were chosen of God and raised up of God. The same goes for the chosen Gentiles. Combined these are they that will rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years, not eternally. The rest will all have their part in the lake of fire to be made whole through the fire. You say no mention of an histircal Sodom? I am at a loss as to how you can figure this. The scripture is plain and clear who God is talking about and yet you still insist He is not. He was contrasting Jerusalem with ancient destroyed Sodom.[/SIZE][/SIZE]
Eze 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
Eze 16:50And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
This is Sodom whom He destroyed. There is no mistaken it. He is not refering to some spiritual Sodom that will be spiritually tormented for eternity sometime in the future. The context of this whole chapter is about restoring these people not tormenting them for all eternity. I dont know how you can apply such a blasphemous false doctrine to the grand declaration of God to restore, not destroy.

God bless, Dave

bibleonly · Jul 19, 2006

Eze 16:48As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.
truth101said: Here He is clearly contrasting them to the literal Sodom

Again, there is no contrasting done here by God, God has clearly called Israel spiritually SODOM.

truth101said: again and revealing to them that they are worse off than the condition Sodom was before the Lord destroyed them. This continues throughout these verses

I agree they have become worse off.

Eze 16:50And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
truth101said: Here He makes no mistake about it that He is talking about literal Sodoms physical destruction.

Again literal Sodom wasnt Judahs sister. Verse 48:

As I live, says the Lord GOD, Sodom your sister.

Eze 16:60Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.
truth101said: We are told earlier that Sodom was only half as guilty as Jerusalem yet God destroyed them completely and now He will show Jerusalem mercy and remember His covanent with them.

It is with an everlasting covenant that God will establish Judah. It is in Christ at the cross when all the captives in the midst of Israel was establish, it is the remnant that God spoke about in Isaiah 1:9:
Except the LORD of hosts had left to us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom,
It is the very small remnant that God will establish, the rest were blinded, so after this manner All Israel will be saved as found in Romans 11:26:

And so (after this manner) all Israel shall be saved.

Eze 16:61Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.
truth101said: Here He is telling them that they will be ashamed when they recieve thy siters, the elder AND the younger in their eventual restoration when Jerusalem is restored as well. Now, you beleive that Jerusalem has a promise of restoration so why do you insist that these verses are not including Sodom and Samaria as well?
Will Jerusalems sisters be distant relatives in hell?

God's will save only and is only concerned with the ETERNAL spiritually Israel of God, that is made up of Jews and Gentiles. That God chose in himself before the foundation of the world.

With your false intrepretion has caused you to assumed that God meant the literal, physical nation of Israel.
No, God is talking about only the lost sheep of the house of Israel,
Theres only a very small remnant that is found throughout the world in all nations that will be save. These are the eternal Israel that God is now married to. They are the Bride of Christ the spiritual, eternal church that are the True Jew that have been circumcised in the heart according to Romans 2:28-29:

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh; But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men but of God.

Let the Bible speak and define whom God has in view. We have learned the outward Jew is called a Sodomite by God. And now God tells us that the true Jew, the one God has in view, the one that was and is promised restoration is the one inwardly that of the heart, in the spirit. These are the people of God.

Eze 16:55When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.
truth101said: Now, I am not going to debate about any spiritual significance spoken here as there is but, not as you are stating.
Jerusalem is promised restoration,Sodom is promised restoration,Samaria is promised restoration. THOU and thy daughters shall return to their former estate.

Jerusalem (the one that is about to be destoryed), Sodom (Gods spiritual name for outward external Israel the one that was destroyed) and Samaria, the then capital of the 10 northern tribes of Israel (that was destroyed). They are all talking about the same entity, the outward external Israel that has no promise of salvation.

truth101said: The spiritual significance makes no difference in the eventual restoration of these peoples. You have taken a false doctrine of eternal punishment and attempted to use these verses as proof of it when their is only mention of restoration. Not one single word portraying any eternal torment whatsoever.

I wasnt trying to prove eternal torment from these verses. I have disproved you false interpretation of Sodom found in this context. And for a matter of fact, as it is found in two other books of the Bible. This is your proof-text, in which you try to form your wobbly conclusion that God doesn't speak about forever and Eternal. Your straining at gnats, if you think that the phyical historical Sodom will be restored. When God clearly defines who spiritually is Sodom, and that being outward external Israel. And the promise of retoration came at the cross when Chirst came to save his people from their sins, who were called Sodom, and now are they called the children of God, who were not His people and now are His people, Sodom has been restored. those whose sins were paid for, they have been clean and wash and made whole. their incurable wound was healed. They have been transfer from the kingdom of darkness (Sodom) into the kingdom of His dear Son.

truth101said: I am not denying nor have that Jerusalem had become as spiritually wicked as Sodom. The fact remains that God told them that they were worse off than Sodom yet, yet, He still had mercy on them and in the process promised the restoration of Sodom and Samaria.
Again the promise of restoration is to the Jew that has been circumcised by God, in the heart.

Truth101 · Jul 19, 2006

Bibleonly said: Again, there is no contrasting done here by God, God has clearly called Israel spiritually SODOM.

You have put the cart before the horse in your understanding here. He is absoluutely not calling Isreal Spiritual Sodom. He is clearly stating they have become LIKE Sodom in their spiritual whoredom.

Bibleonly said:Again literal Sodom wasnt Judahs sister. Verse 48:
As I live, says the Lord GOD, Sodom your sister.

Now you say Sodom was not not Judahs's sister and then you quote one of many that say Sodom is Jersusalems sister. These verses are being spoken to Jerusalem.

Bibleonly said: It is with an everlasting covenant that God will establish Judah. It is in Christ at the cross when all the captives in the midst of Israel was establish, it is the remnant that God spoke about in Isaiah 1:9:Except the LORD of hosts had left to us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom,
It is the very small remnant that God will establish, the rest were blinded, so after this manner All Israel will be saved as found in Romans 11:26:
And so (after this manner) all Israel shall be saved.

I dont have time to go into this at this time because you have brutally mutilated scripture here and to undo all of this would take at least 40 pages or more. So Ill move on for now.

Let the Bible speak and define whom God has in view. We have learned the outward Jew is called a Sodomite by God. And now God tells us that the true Jew, the one God has in view, the one that was and is promised restoration is the one inwardly that of the heart, in the spirit. These are the people of God.

The bible has clearly spoken on the subject and placed everything into context. You have taken it out of context, added your theory of eternal punishment to those promised restoration. You have insisted that God is calling isreal Spiritual Sodom and has not contrasted them in comparison with Sodom but has now just renamed them Sodom. He has always dealt with Isreal as Isreal until the cross. You have clearly put the cart before the horse. Yes God reserved a small remnant but His promise for restoration is to ALL of Isreal not just His remneant. Think about it. 7000 jews from the old dispensation and 144,000 from the new dispensation conbimed are the spiritual Jew. So our of the old dispensation He has only saved 7000 that are reserved for aionios life (life in the kingdom for 1000 years, not eternity). There are 144,000 from the new dispensation that are also reserved for aionios life. All the rest of humanity are reserved for aionios death (to stay dead through the kingdom age of 1000 years). At the end of this kingdom age all are promised restoration through the lake of fire. Not eternal destruction.
With your theology you make God out to be a respecter of persons since even though Jerusalem were more disobedient that the Sodmites He "nevertheless remembers His covanent" with them and has mercy on them, while He destroys the rest of Isreal in eternal torment? Not to mention Sodom was not as disobedient as Isreal and they see no mercy from God? Clearly portraying God as a respector of persons, an unjust one to boot.

Bible only saidI wasnt trying to prove eternal torment from these verses. I have disproved you false interpretation of Sodom found in this context. And for a matter of fact, as it is found in two other books of the Bible. This is your proof-text, in which you try to form your wobbly conclusion that God doesn't speak about forever and Eternal. Your straining at gnats, if you think that the phyical historical Sodom will be restored. When God clearly defines who spiritually is Sodom, and that being outward external Israel. And the promise of retoration came at the cross when Chirst came to save his people from their sins, who were called Sodom, and now are they called the children of God, who were not His people and now are His people, Sodom has been restored. those whose sins were paid for, they have been clean and wash and made whole. their incurable wound was healed. They have been transfer from the kingdom of darkness (Sodom) into the kingdom of His dear Son.

You say you were not trying to prove eternal torment from these verses. The reason it because it is not mentioned here so you have incorporated it into your scholarship of these verses which has given you a false understanding of these verses. Yes, the promise of restoration came at the cross but you have again insisted on eternal torment for all but the spiritual Jew. The spiritual Jew has not been established yet in these verses. I understand what you are saying concerning the spiritual Jew being saved but you cannot seperate the spiritual Jew from the literal Jew in these passages because the passages in the old testament are dealing with the whole nation of Isreal and their sisters Sodom and Samaria. It is true that after the cross their became no difference in circumsision and uncircumsision but we are dealing with Gods messages to the literal nations from the prophets concerning their present condition in the old testament. Do you see how you have put the cart before the horse?

Bibleonly said:Again the promise of restoration is to the Jew that has been circumcised by God, in the heart.

The promise is to the literal Isreal in these passages since the new dispensation has not yet come. God has dealt with Isreal accordingly in the old dispensation and in the new dispensation He has turned from Isreal and began dealing with the gentiles (rest of the world). It is obvious we will have to just disagree with each other on this one and move on to another since your view is seen through the eyes of eternal torment. We cannot agree on this at all with your incorporation of this blasphemous teaching and you are desperate to hold on to it under any circumstances.

God bless, Dave

Eternal Hell, Scripture or ignorant theory?

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