HOMOSEXUALITY: What the Bible Does & Does Not Say

Deut 13:1 · Jul 18, 2006

Pah said:
LEVITICUS 18:22 & 20:13

Christians today do not follow the rules and rituals described in Leviticus. But some ignore its definitions of their own "uncleanness" while quoting Leviticus to condemn "homosexuals." Such abuse of Scripture distorts the Old Testament
meaning and denies a New Testament message. "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." These words occur solely in the Holiness Code of Leviticus, a ritual manual for Israel's priests. Their meaning can only be fully appreciated in the historical and cultural context of the ancient Hebrew people. Israel, in a unique place as the chose people of one God, was to avoid the practices of other peoples and gods.

Hebrew religion, characterized by the revelation of one God, stood in continuous tension with the religion of the surrounding Canaanites who worshipped the multiple gods of fertility cults. Canaanite idol worship, which featured female and male cult prostitution as noted in Deuteronomy 23:17, repeatedly compromised Israel's loyalty to God. The Hebrew word for a male cult prostitute, qadesh, is mistranslated "sodomite" in some versions of the Bible.

What is an "Abomination"?
An abomination is that which God found detestable because it was unclean, disloyal, or unjust. Several Hebrew words were so translated, and the one found in Leviticus, toevah, is usually associated with idolatry, as in Ezekiel, where it occurs numerous times. Given the strong association of toevah with idolatry and the canaanite religious practice of cult prostitution, the use of toevah regarding male same-sex acts in Leviticus calls into question any conclusion that such condemnation also applies to loving, responsible homosexual relationships.

Rituals and rules found in the Old Testament were given to preserve the distinctive characteristics of the religion and culture of Israel. But, as stated in Galatians 3:22-25, Christians are no longer bound by these Jewish laws. By faith we live in Jesus Christ, not in Leviticus. To be sure, ethical concerns apply to all cultures and peoples in every age. Such concerns were ultimately reflected by Jesus Christ, who said nothing about homosexuality, but a great deal about love, justice, mercy and faith.

Basically this site, instead of arguing what the text says, pulls other unrelated scripture and says, "You don't follow this - so this can't be applicable". Am I about summing this lack of argument up? What do you say to Jews who DO still follow the same mitzvot's????

Elvendon · Jul 18, 2006

Deut 13:1 said:
Basically this site, instead of arguing what the text says, pulls other unrelated scripture and says, "You don't follow this - so this can't be applicable". Am I about summing this lack of argument up? What do you say to Jews who DO still follow the same mitzvot's????

lack of argument? It's rather compelling imo. It is decidely hypocritical to say "Oh yeah, you can't be gay" and then say "but hey! We can eat pork - it's all good"

If you don't like this argument - how is this one:

When the Bible was composed, homosexuality was not what it is today. In Hebrew times, it was a ritual activity closely connected with the worship of pagan gods (as the quotation states.) In Roman times, it either manifested itself as pederasty (which we would consider paedophilic) and as a form of titilation for masters to commit with their slaves. The concept of a loving, monogamous homosexual union did not exist. Therefore, it was a non-issue - the ancient Jews and Christians simply didn't need a judgement upon it. What they did need warding off was sex that bore the taint of pagan cults or a powerplay between slave/master or mentor/student - which is something we still frown on today.

Deut 13:1 · Jul 18, 2006

Elvendon said:
lack of argument? It's rather compelling imo. It is decidely hypocritical to say "Oh yeah, you can't be gay" and then say "but hey! We can eat pork - it's all good"

Again i ask, how does this argument mean anything to someone who has never eaten pork and never planes on it?

Fluffy · Jul 18, 2006

Again i ask, how does this argument mean anything to someone who has never eaten pork and never planes on it?

It doesn't. That does not invalidate the argument, however. It just means that you happen to be immune to it.

MaddLlama · Jul 18, 2006

How about the argument that not all people are Christian, and therefore Christian rules and regulations should not be forced on others outside the church?

Deut 13:1 · Jul 18, 2006

Fluffy said:
It doesn't. That does not invalidate the argument, however. It just means that you happen to be immune to it.

Okay, so you agree that homosexuality is a sin. Good, we're making progess...

MasterOblivion · Jul 18, 2006

how about corinthians says that ne one who is homeosexual will not inherit the kingdom of God. i think that means God doesnt apporove of homosexuals.

Mystic-als · Jul 19, 2006

HAHAHAHA !!!! If I could bring myself to give frubals for funniest post it would have to be shared by two people.

First prize would go to

MasterOblivion said:
how about corinthians says that ne one who is homeosexual will not inherit the kingdom of God. i think that means God doesnt apporove of homosexuals.

Corinthians? Really? Chapter and verse?

Second would be

Deut 13:1 said:
Okay, so you agree that homosexuality is a sin. Good, we're making progess...

What if I told you that to eat Bacon is not a sin. And I stated it as fact.

Deut 13:1 · Jul 19, 2006

Mystic-als said:
What if I told you that not to eat Bacon is a sin. And I stated it as fact.

And your scriptural proof would be...???

Seem's like I am the one with the scripture backing my position up, not you. Thanks for eating up the bandwidth of the site with your useless post.

almifkhar · Jul 19, 2006

you know i dont understand why this is in debate either?

the bible specifically says that "do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." you will find this in leviticus 18 unlawful sexual relations. it lists all kinds of no no's where sex is concerned.

leviticus 18:24 further states the reasons why these unlawful sexual relations are sins and detastable. it says, "do not defie yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that i am going to drive out before you became defiled. even the land was defiled, so i punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants."

the point of the laws of unlawful sexual relations?
the nations before ended up focusing too much on the physical and physicl gratification, and this is not what sex is to be all about. yes it is physical and can be enjoyed, however one must be responisible about what one is doing. when one does one of these things, it tends to open up a pandora's box and the result is society breaks down because everyone is out for themselves and their self gratification. this is what was to be avoided for the sake of family and society. family is the most sacred and important aspect of society and when family breaks down , society will fail. this is why homosexual acts along with things such as close family sex, animal sex, in law sex, rape, mom/daughter sex, etc. was prohibited. and lets face it, homosexual sex acts have no purpose except for physical gratifaction. the main function of sex is to create life, this requires a man and woman.

the last sentence in this paragraph specifically states "everyone who does these detestable things must be cut off for their people." "keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. i am the lord your god. "

i think the bible makes it very clear that homosexual acts are a sin

Elvendon · Jul 19, 2006

almifkhar said:
you know i dont understand why this is in debate either?

the bible specifically says that "do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." you will find this in leviticus 18 unlawful sexual relations. it lists all kinds of no no's where sex is concerned.

leviticus 18:24 further states the reasons why these unlawful sexual relations are sins and detastable. it says, "do not defie yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that i am going to drive out before you became defiled. even the land was defiled, so i punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants."

As has been said repeatedly, Jesus Christ fulfilled the Laws of Leviticus through his atoning death upon the cross, bringing them to their natural zenith and allowing us to follow our consciences and the needs of others rather than specific laws. The Ethic of the Law was made into an ethic of obligation, while the ethic of the new testament is an ethic of freedom.

Therefore, just as I am able to eat pork, it's not illegal to be a homosexual.

the point of the laws of unlawful sexual relations?
the nations before ended up focusing too much on the physical and physicl gratification, and this is not what sex is to be all about. yes it is physical and can be enjoyed, however one must be responisible about what one is doing. when one does one of these things, it tends to open up a pandora's box and the result is society breaks down because everyone is out for themselves and their self gratification. this is what was to be avoided for the sake of family and society. family is the most sacred and important aspect of society and when family breaks down , society will fail. this is why homosexual acts along with things such as close family sex, animal sex, in law sex, rape, mom/daughter sex, etc. was prohibited. and lets face it, homosexual sex acts have no purpose except for physical gratifaction. the main function of sex is to create life, this requires a man and woman.

This shows a titanic ignorance of homosexual relationships. To say that homosexual sex is only for sexual pleasure (and that all sex is only for pleasure or the production of offspring) denies the powerful emotional implications that any sexual relationship can and should have. Ask any monogamous homosexual, and he will not say he only has sex with his partner because of some form of titilation.

Furthemore, what if homosexuality has a biological foundation? Some research suggests that being gay is genetic - a natural way of curbing population growth and creating humans devoted to caring for the young of others rather than producing their own.

A greater threat to the unity of the family is promiscuity and illicit sex that is perverted (such as bestiality) or usually a manifestation of abuse (paedophilia or incest.) That is why those things were illegal - homosexuality was forbidden due to it's connotations with the idolatrous and inhumanly sacrificial pagan cults of the Middle East at the time.

the last sentence in this paragraph specifically states "everyone who does these detestable things must be cut off for their people." "keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. i am the lord your god. "

i think the bible makes it very clear that homosexual acts are a sin

The same area of the Bible also forbids meteorology and eating crabs. It also condemns disobedient children to be stoned to death. As this is obviously is cruel and incredibly strict, it must require a different method of reading than your blind literalism.

Mystic-als · Jul 19, 2006

Deut 13:1 said:
Thanks for eating up the bandwidth

HEHEHE you make me laugh!!!

Acts 10:10-16 said:
10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12 Wherein ° were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16 ° This was done thrice °: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Luke 10:9 said:
9 And heal the sick that are therein °, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

from http://phpbible.org

Just because a scripture from the bible says something about a subject doesn't make it relevant for everyone.
These are from the New testiment and are probably not going to be accepted by any Jewish person as permission to eat pork.

I say this to illustrate that what is sin to you might not be sin to me. Depnding on my character, morals and beliefs.

So for you Homosexuality might be a sin. But to me it isn't.

Simon Gnosis · Jul 19, 2006

almifkhar said:
you know i dont understand why this is in debate either?

the bible specifically says that "do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." you will find this in leviticus 18 unlawful sexual relations. it lists all kinds of no no's where sex is concerned.

leviticus 18:24 further states the reasons why these unlawful sexual relations are sins and detastable. it says, "do not defie yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that i am going to drive out before you became defiled. even the land was defiled, so i punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants."

the point of the laws of unlawful sexual relations?
the nations before ended up focusing too much on the physical and physicl gratification, and this is not what sex is to be all about. yes it is physical and can be enjoyed, however one must be responisible about what one is doing. when one does one of these things, it tends to open up a pandora's box and the result is society breaks down because everyone is out for themselves and their self gratification. this is what was to be avoided for the sake of family and society. family is the most sacred and important aspect of society and when family breaks down , society will fail. this is why homosexual acts along with things such as close family sex, animal sex, in law sex, rape, mom/daughter sex, etc. was prohibited. and lets face it, homosexual sex acts have no purpose except for physical gratifaction. the main function of sex is to create life, this requires a man and woman.

the last sentence in this paragraph specifically states "everyone who does these detestable things must be cut off for their people." "keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. i am the lord your god. "

i think the bible makes it very clear that homosexual acts are a sin

I find it fascinating that you compare homsexual sex to sexual deviances like bestiality incest and rape.

When clearly each sexual 'deviancy' is to be judged on individual merit.

How is homosexuality damaging to families?
What damages families most is financial burden.

Homosexuality has always been a pressure valve for human society and has always been a minority generally in human cultures, it seems to be an ancient and natural phenomenon.
Religous bigotry should be ignored.

Arrow · Jul 19, 2006

Alright, i think that most of you are saying that homosexuality is not a sin.
*takes a deep breath* *inhaler*

BTW i do not mean any offence to anyone that is homosexual here, i am only here to express my own view and in no means do i dislike you.
As far as pork is concerned, the book of Acts repeals it. I believe that Peter had some kind of vision or something, and that is why it is okay. We do not sacrifice anymore because of Jesus and we do not have a temple to build to certain specifications also because of Jesus. However, beacuse Jesus died does not mean that the whole old testament went to pot. The ten commandments still stand don't they? Homosexuality was something that was not repealled from the old testament. So even in the new testament it is still a sin.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 "...nor homosexuals...will inherit the kingdom of God."
Yes of course there is redemption for all. Whosoever believes... i still believe that.
I am just saying that sinning is no different than any other sin.
Simon Gnosis: It is not almifkhar that compares the act of homosexuality with that of bestiality, incest, and rape, but God. Sins are equal in the eyes of God because they all have the same penalty, death. "For the wages of sin is death..." Romans 3:23
If you do not want scriptural references, then i will try this as well. God created both man and woman.
Eph 5:31 For this cause473, 5127 shall a man444 leave2641 his848 father3962 and2532 mother,3384 and2532 shall be joined4347 unto4314 his848 wife,1135 and2532 they two1417 shall be2071 one3391 flesh.4561
God's plans is for male and female to marry. A man is to be the head of the house. If there are two men, then who is to be the head of the house? There are two women who is to be the head of the house? Homosexuality defies the plan of God and therefore defies God as an act of sin. There is a reason why men and women are different.

wmam · Jul 19, 2006

Arrow said:
As far as pork is concerned, the book of Acts repeals it. I believe that Peter had some kind of vision or something, and that is why it is okay.

Kefa saw a vision three times in a row to show that the three Gentiles that were waiting to see him was not to be looked upon as unclean. These verses you speak of in no way states that the eating of unclean things is now accepted.

Arrow said:
We do not sacrifice anymore because of Jesus and we do not have a temple to build to certain specifications also because of Jesus. However, because Jesus died does not mean that the whole old testament went to pot. The ten commandments still stand don't they? Homosexuality was something that was not repealled from the old testament. So even in the new testament it is still a sin.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 "...nor homosexuals...will inherit the kingdom of God."
Yes of course there is redemption for all. Whosoever believes... i still believe that.
I am just saying that sinning is no different than any other sin.
Simon Gnosis: It is not almifkhar that compares the act of homosexuality with that of bestiality, incest, and rape, but God. Sins are equal in the eyes of God because they all have the same penalty, death. "For the wages of sin is death..." Romans 3:23
If you do not want scriptural references, then i will try this as well. God created both man and woman.
Eph 5:31 For this cause473, 5127 shall a man444 leave2641 his848 father3962 and2532 mother,3384 and2532 shall be joined4347 unto4314 his848 wife,1135 and2532 they two1417 shall be2071 one3391 flesh.4561
God's plans is for male and female to marry. A man is to be the head of the house. If there are two men, then who is to be the head of the house? There are two women who is to be the head of the house? Homosexuality defies the plan of God and therefore defies God as an act of sin. There is a reason why men and women are different.

I believe what many here have stuck in their craw is the fact that many state that the law against homosexuality still stands when most all the rest of the law was, so called, nailed to a cross. I do not, myself, believe that any laws were nailed to any death stake but rather only the sacrificial laws were basically put on hold since Yahshua Ha Mashiach is now our perpetuation for our past sins only if we do as is commanded for us to do to receive such grace.

Arrow · Jul 19, 2006

so you agree with me that it is a sin and who is Kefa?

Arrow · Jul 19, 2006

Why have not any of the LDS responded to this? I would like to hear some of there opinions, but if they do not want to i understand.

gnostic · Jul 19, 2006

Arrow said:
Alright, i think that most of you are saying that homosexuality is not a sin.

Sin? No. I would just say it is not my cup of tea. Its not my place to judge gays or lesbians, just because homosexuality is not my preference.

Pulling bible's quotations here and there, particularly from the Moses' books, is senseless, since these laws were mainly reserved for the Israelites/Jews, not Christians.

Do Christians obey every single law in the Torah? No. Do all Christians follow the laws in regarding to Sabbath and to circumcision, or prohibit from eating pork (as the example being used already)?

Beside, not everyone likes tea.

Arrow · Jul 19, 2006

gnostic said:
Sin? No. I would just say it is not my cup of tea. It’s not my place to judge gays or lesbians, just because homosexuality is not my preference.

Pulling bible's quotations here and there, particularly from the Moses' books, is senseless, since these laws were mainly reserved for the Israelites/Jews, not Christians.

Do Christians obey every single law in the Torah? No. Do all Christians follow the laws in regarding to Sabbath and to circumcision, or prohibit from eating pork (as the example being used already)?

Beside, not everyone likes tea.

But i expressed my view from the view of the New Testament not the Old

MasterOblivion · Jul 19, 2006

ok mystical here u go... 1 Corinthians 6: 9-10 "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be decieved: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor theives nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingom of God."

HOMOSEXUALITY: What the Bible Does & Does Not Say

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