How are these Great Beings explained?

Tumah said:

The messiah has yet to come, so I'm not sure how to parse this sentence.

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Tumah said:

There doesn't seem to be any reason to believe that. My ancestors saw G-d reveal Himself and heard Him speak to Moses. So we know he's OK. None of the others pass the qualification test.

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Elijah came in 1844, the Gate (Bab) of the "Gory of God" (Baha'u'llah) came from the East as promissed.

Baha'u'llah "To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father”, the “Lord of Hosts” come down “with ten thousands of saints”

This was the event you still wait for. God has fulfilled His Covernant with the Jewish Peoples.

That is all that needs to be said and I wish you always well and happy in Faith and life.

May peace always be with you.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

This was the event you still wait for. God has fulfilled His Covernant with the Jewish Peoples.

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Apparently not many Jews agree.

Vinayaka said:

Apparently not many Jews agree.

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It was foretold this would happen in the very scriptures they hold as Truth. Thus this is to be expected.

You can read them and see for your own self if you wish.

The Jews have a glorious future, it is unfolding as we speak. All can contribute.

God bless all and reagrds Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

God gave Free Will, thus God has always allowed that free will, of course man has different ideas. I found a few quotes that go back a few thousand years;
...Bible 2 Corinthians 9:7"Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver...."

Regards Tony

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I know Christians talk about free will all the time, so there must be more Bible verses you can find. But the one you did use is about giving money. A collection was being taken to be sent to some other Christians that were having a tough time. Here's the verse before along with the one you quoted:

"9:6 The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."

So no compulsion, just if you're going to be a cheapskate then God will be cheap with you. Give a lot and God will give you a lot. But there's no arm twisting. It's all up to them.

Tumah said:

I don't know or care to know what Baha'u'''ah offered. I am only pointing out your hypocrisy.

By claiming that other religions' adherents took control of G-d's message and changed it in order to be different based on what you "know" to be true as a Baha'i, you are attempting to control other religions' messages and change them.


Thanks to poor Baha'i argument, I don't think many people are.


This is a debate forum. A religions debate forum no less. Replying and arguing with religion is what we do here.


There's no doubt about that. The only doubt is whether the content of the message is what you believe it to be...

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What is remarkable is that Baha'is say the Jews missed the boat with Jesus. Christians missed it with Muhammad. All of them, that are still in their old religions, missed it with Baha'u'llah.

The religion I been around the most is Christianity. They taught me and showed me in the Bible verses that "clearly" proved Jesus is your Messiah and also God in the flesh. I go back and check some of the prophesies and find that all of them have some problems... like being misinterpretations or being out of context and not having anything to do with being a prophecy about Jesus.

What Christian did to you, Baha'is have done to all the main religions. They find prophecies from every religion that "proves" their "dual" manifestations of The Bab and Baha'u'llah. But, like you say, they change the message of the other religions to conform to Baha'i beliefs.

So what good were any of the Holy Books? Your Scriptures are taken and changed, reinterpreted, to suit Christians and now Baha'is take them and reinterpret them yet again.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Carlita, no it was an wonderful answer to your question.

The Christian who lives a True Christian life is also actually already living a Baha'i life as well. Thus Abdul'baha is saying he has found the Truth of what Baha'u'llah is teaching, he is a Baha'i. They do not have to know that, they do not have to accept that, they are that.

I went to a AOG church service on Sunday and found a Pastor who is just that, good on Him...I will not tell Him, He does not know, but He lives a Christian life that is a Baha'i.

One day if the opportunity presents itself, I will introduce Him to the Baha'i Faith. Meanwhile I will go to His Church Service each Sunday!

Regards Tony

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Part of living the Christian life is having a belief in the doctrines. When they pray, they are praying to God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit. When in their daily life they come across someone to share the Word with, they tell them... "Jesus died on the cross for your sins, and God raised him from the dead." They'll also tell them about heaven and hell and that there is a Satan. That person is not a Baha'i. A Baha'i would never tell a person any of those things.

If you want to talk about a Christian and a Baha'i that are good examples of living a virtuous life, then on the surface, they act in a similar way. But the core beliefs of why they are acting as they do are different. And for sure, the Christian thinks you are still going to hell no matter how virtuous you are, because they will tell you that no one is saved by works of the flesh.. only by faith in Jesus.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

The Truth may not be that clear, there are many Prophecies that have been fulfilled since the Day of Christ.

Everybody faces God for what they have done. It may be time to consider that God has spoken through Christ, then Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Baha'u'llah talks about those that rejected Christ. In a Tablet to the Christains he guided them by saying; ".....Consider those who rejected the Spirit (Jesus Christ) when He came unto them with manifest dominion. How numerous the Pharisees who had secluded themselves in synagogues in His name, lamenting over their separation from Him, and yet when the portals of reunion were flung open and the divine Luminary shone resplendent from the Dayspring of Beauty, they disbelieved in God, the Exalted, the Mighty. They failed to attain His presence, notwithstanding that His advent had been promised them in the Book of Isaiah as well as in the Books of the Prophets and the Messengers. No one from among them turned his face towards the Dayspring of divine bounty except such as were destitute of any power amongst men. And yet, today, every man endowed with power and invested with sovereignty prideth himself on His Name. Moreover, call thou to mind the one who sentenced Jesus to death. He was the most learned of his age in his own country, whilst he who was only a fisherman believed in Him. Take good heed and be of them that observe the warning."

Yes Baha'u'llah has challenged all to consider deeply why their Truth is yet to find the Kingdom they strive for.

Always be happy and peace be with you.

Regards Tony

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Unfortunately, that doesn't sound like there is oneness of religion, but only one religion that is true, and all the others have lost their way and have become irrelevant. That's a hard sell to those that have a strong belief in their religion and believe and see the relevance of their religion.

Vinayaka said:

Islam was presented to Hindus as the largest genocide in human history.

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I just thought of the situation during the Inquisition. Jews would rather be tortured and killed rather than convert to the newer, "better" religion. Why would they? What did Christianity have that was better? Same with Hindus and Islam. What was there that was better? Now with the Baha'i Faith, why would you leave your religion to join them? What are they really offering that would be better?

CG Didymus said:

So what good were any of the Holy Books? Your Scriptures are taken and changed, reinterpreted, to suit Christians and now Baha'is take them and reinterpret them yet again.

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Who owns Gods Word...How does the Word of God belong to any one person or people?

Isaiah 45:12"It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it I stretched out the heavens with My hands And I ordained all their host."

"He Who is your Lord, the All-Merciful, cherisheth in His heart the desire of beholding the entire human race as one soul and one body." (Bahá’u’lláh, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts)

Psalm 100:3"Know that the LORD Himself is God; It is He who has made us, and not we ourselves; We are His people and the sheep of His pasture."

John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

The Word in all Holy Books Speaks for itself.

CG Didymus said:

Unfortunately, that doesn't sound like there is oneness of religion, but only one religion that is true, and all the others have lost their way and have become irrelevant. That's a hard sell to those that have a strong belief in their religion and believe and see the relevance of their religion.

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Yes God only has One Religion in His Many Names. Each Name and Faith displaying more of the Attributes of God, each progressively giving man the guidance needed to find Unity and Peace upon this earth.

No Spiritual teaching becomes irrelevant. That would be the same as saying all your learning in life becomes irrelevant every time you learn more knowledge or a more complex idea.

May everyone be well and happy - Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Elijah came in 1844, the Gate (Bab) of the "Gory of God" (Baha'u'llah) came from the East as promissed.

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How do you know it was Elijah?
I assume you believe he's still alive since he has yet to cause all the Jews to repent (Mal. 3:23).

Baha'u'llah "To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father”, the “Lord of Hosts” come down “with ten thousands of saints”This was the event you still wait for. God has fulfilled His Covernant with the Jewish Peoples.

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No, this is not the event I was waiting for. Nor is this a fulfillment of the Covenant with the Jewish people, since the Covenant with the Jewish people doesn't need fulfilling, it already exists. G-d is our G-d and we are His people charged with keeping His commandments to be rewarded or punished accordingly. That's the treaty between us.

Perhaps this is what Christians believe they are waiting for as I recognize the phrase "Everlasting Father" from a passage in Isaiah that Christians attribute to the messiah, while Jews attribute it to Hezekiah.

I am waiting for G-d to send the messiah to gather all the Jews in the entire world and bring them back to Israel (Isa. 11:12), the building of the Third Temple (Eze. 40) and the acknowledgement by every single person in the world that the G-d of Israel is G-d (Isa. 11:9).

Anyone who fails to achieve these things in their lifetime is not the person the Jews have been waiting for because it is not a fulfillment of the prophecies G-d sent us.

CG Didymus said:

What is remarkable is that Baha'is say the Jews missed the boat with Jesus. Christians missed it with Muhammad. All of them, that are still in their old religions, missed it with Baha'u'llah.

The religion I been around the most is Christianity. They taught me and showed me in the Bible verses that "clearly" proved Jesus is your Messiah and also God in the flesh. I go back and check some of the prophesies and find that all of them have some problems... like being misinterpretations or being out of context and not having anything to do with being a prophecy about Jesus.

What Christian did to you, Baha'is have done to all the main religions. They find prophecies from every religion that "proves" their "dual" manifestations of The Bab and Baha'u'llah. But, like you say, they change the message of the other religions to conform to Baha'i beliefs.

So what good were any of the Holy Books? Your Scriptures are taken and changed, reinterpreted, to suit Christians and now Baha'is take them and reinterpret them yet again.

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Its always like that. The Baha'i say the Muslims, Christians and Jews missed the boat. The Muslims say the Christians and Jews missed the boat. The Christians say the Jews missed the boat.

No one knows how to read their own Holy Books apparently.

Of course now that Rastafari is the newest progression of Divinely revealed religions according to Baha'i, I mean...right?

Tumah said:

How do you know it was Elijah?

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Elijah always comes First. The Bab was Elijah of the Baha'i revelation. The Bab prepared the way for Baha'u'llah, the 'Glory of God' or 'Glory of the Lord'. Carmel and Sharron have indeed seen the 'Glory of God'.

Tumah said:

I am waiting for G-d to send the messiah to gather all the Jews in the entire world and bring them back to Israel (Isa. 11:12),

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The ability to do that did happen in 1844 with the 'Edict of Toleration'. This document removed the restrictions and allowed the Jews to return to the Holy Land. "the times of the Gentiles" were "fulfilled." Edict of Toleration 1844 - Wikipedia

Tumah said:

the building of the Third Temple (Eze. 40)

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That is not a Temple of Brick and Clay, it is the Temple of Baha'u'llah - This is that Tablet - Tablet of the Temple

"The most important of His Tablets, addressed to individual sovereigns, Bahá'u'lláh ordered to be written in the form of a pentacle, symbolizing the temple of man, including therein, as a conclusion, the following words which reveal the importance He attached to those Messages, and indicate their direct association with the prophecy of the Old Testament:

"Thus have We built the Temple with the hands of power and might, could ye but know it. This is the Temple promised to you in the Book. Draw nigh unto it. This is that which profiteth you, could ye but comprehend it. Be fair, O peoples of the earth! Which is preferable, this, or a temple which is built of clay? Set your faces towards it. Thus have ye been commanded by God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Follow ye His bidding, and praise ye your God, your Lord, for that which He hath bestowed upon you. He, verily, is the Truth. No God is there but He. He revealeth what He pleaseth, through His words 'Be and it is.'"

Tumah said:

and the acknowledgement by every single person in the world that the G-d of Israel is G-d (Isa. 11:9).

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Yes all that accept the Oneness of God and His Religions do indeed acknowledge that the G-d of Israel is G-d for all Humanity and All Faiths.

Tumah said:

Anyone who fails to achieve these things in their lifetime is not the person the Jews have been waiting for because it is not a fulfillment of the prophecies G-d sent us.

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Baha'u'llah did not Fail to do so, humanity has done as history proves humanity is inclined to do.

No need to reply if you do not wish to explore this further. Unless of course you wish to explore this in greater detail. the Prophecy of Daniel indeed points to 1844. The Book of revelation of Christianity points back to Daniel and also foretells of the year 1260.

AH1260, is AD1844.

Regards Tony

CG Didymus said:

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The Baha'is do terminate several core beliefs of the previous religions. Were those core beliefs from God or from man?

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Please give one or two specific example of the core beliefs you are talking about.

CG Didymus said:

I know most about Christianity, so what did the first Christians believe? That Christ rose physically from the dead. That the devil and hell are real. That God created Adam and Eve and all of creation in six days. The entire world was flooded and only Noah and his family survived. Jesus is the only way to get your sins forgiven and become right with God.

Years later, the leaders consulted and voted on which letters and stories are genuine, and they made them the infallible Word of God, along with some of the Jewish Scriptures. They consulted and came to the conclusion that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are part of a triune Godhead with the Father. They made their leader, the Pope, infallible. Any one that didn't agree with these leaders of the Church were kicked out and declared heretics. Thus, insuring the unity of belief.

Baha'is kick out their heretics and call them covenant breakers. These covenant breakers think they are in the right for some reason and do start an off shoot of the Baha'i Faith. So that is still differences and schisms.

Now back to Christianity. Unfortunately, the leadership of the One and Only Universal Christian Church had some internal corruption. Was the schism started because of Martin Luther's grievances with the Church a wrong thing?

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Differences of understanding always exist. If
There are 6 million Bahais right now, in my opinion, everyone have some different understanding of the Bahai teachings.
What matters, is, no body can make sect in Bahai Faith. There has been attempts to make divisions, but could not succeed. Because Bahai Faith has center of covenant, a new concept, that previous revelations did not have, for not being ready yet.

CG Didymus said:

Yes, God is fickle. He tells Hindus how to break free from the cycle of birth and death. .

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I do not believe God said to Hindus, break free from cycle of birth and death. We would need to look into original scriptures from Krishna, for example. The accuracy and correct interpretations are important. You would need to quote from Krishna on this.

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He tells Jews to follow his Law and to keep the Sabbath Holy... for all your generations.
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Yes. This is in Jewish text. Bahaullah says, God can say something, and later change His command to test obedience of true believers. Like how He told Abraham to sacrifice His son, and later changed it, saying kill the lamb instead.

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He tells Christians to forget the Law. It will not save you. That you are lost in your sins and the only thing that can make you right with God is to accept His Son Jesus. Who, because of His sacrifice on the cross, paid the penalty for your sins. I don't know what he told Buddha, Mohammad and Zoroaster and any other officially recognized manifestations to say, but maybe you could tell me. And then why did all this have to change? He couldn't have keep His teachings a little more consistent? It almost seems like all these religions came from a different source.

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Some of the teachings are in accordance with the Age. Each age had its own conditions, and therefor needed a different set of teachings. But in principle, the foundation of religion of God is the same, in whatever age it appears. For instance, God always tests humanity. He told Muslims that Muhammad is the seal of Prophets. Most Muslims because of this designation do not believe in another Revelation from God. Jews are told to keep the Sabbath for ever. Christians were told, only through Jesus they go to father, and earth and heaven pass, but the words of Christ shall not pass.
From Bahai point of view, God always placed an obstacle in front of a people as a test. Those who make an effort, can pass these obstacles, and are able to recognize next revelations. Those who get stuck at these obstacles, will not succeed, saying, Muhammad is the last one, or Jesus is the last one. As an example, This is what is meant, when Bahai Scriptures say, the religion of God is one, and has always been one.
See what Bahaullah wrote with this regards:


"such things as throw consternation into the hearts of all men come to pass only that each soul may be tested by the touchstone of God, that the true may be known and distinguished from the false"

"But inasmuch as the divine Purpose hath decreed that the true should be known from the false, and the sun from the shadow, He hath, therefore, in every season sent down upon mankind the showers of tests from His realm of glory."

"Reflect upon the strange and manifold trials with which He doth test His servants. Consider how He hath suddenly chosen from among His servants, and entrusted with the exalted mission of divine guidance Him Who was known as guilty of homicide (Moses)..."



"The mystery of this theme hath, in this Dispensation, been a sore test unto all mankind. Behold, how many are those who, clinging unto these words, have disbelieved Him Who is their true Revealer"

CG Didymus said:

I just thought of the situation during the Inquisition. Jews would rather be tortured and killed rather than convert to the newer, "better" religion. Why would they? What did Christianity have that was better? Same with Hindus and Islam. What was there that was better? Now with the Baha'i Faith, why would you leave your religion to join them? What are they really offering that would be better?

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Especially so, when your own faith has just so much more to offer.

InvestigateTruth said:

I do not believe God said to Hindus, break free from cycle of birth and death. We would need to look into original scriptures from Krishna, for example. The accuracy and correct interpretations are important. You would need to quote from Krishna on this.

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It's throughout the BG: Most likely you've never read it.

One example: http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-08-23.html

But we could give a thousand examples, and you'd just say, "I don't believe Krishna said those 1000 things." So what would be the point?

InvestigateTruth said:

Please give one or two specific example of the core beliefs you are talking about.

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Again? We've all already done this several times over. You want us to do it again? Why?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Elijah always comes First.

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Elijah always comes first. I'm not sure how to understand this sentence. He didn't come before Adam. He didn't come before Noah. He didn't come before Moses.

Maybe you meant he came first before Elisha?

The Bab was Elijah of the Baha'i revelation.

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I'm not sure if you're saying that the Bab was the reincarnation of Elijah, or acted in the capacity of an Elijah by preceding something.

I hope its the latter, unless you have evidence its the former.

The Bab prepared the way for Baha'u'llah, the 'Glory of God' or 'Glory of the Lord'. Carmel and Sharron have indeed seen the 'Glory of God'.

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Using Abrahamic phraseology does not indeed make your statement factual.

The ability to do that did happen in 1844 with the 'Edict of Toleration'. This document removed the restrictions and allowed the Jews to return to the Holy Land. "the times of the Gentiles" were "fulfilled." Edict of Toleration 1844 - Wikipedia

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Perhaps I need to quote for you Isa. 11:12.

"He will set up a flag for the nations, and [He will] gather the dispersed of Israel. And the scattered of Judah He will gather from the four corners of the land."

It doesn't say that G-d will make it possible for Israel to return to the land. It says G-d will bring the nation of Israel back to the land of Israel.

G-d: Behold! Within 7 days I shall send you an orange fruit to your doorstep!
5 days later, an apple falls near doorstep
Baha'i: The prophecy has been fulfilled! Its an apple near my doorstep!
Jew: The prophecy was about an orange fruit, not a red one...
Baha'i: But its still a fruit! Close enough!!!

That is not a Temple of Brick and Clay, it is the Temple of Baha'u'llah - This is that Tablet - Tablet of the Temple

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Good luck convincing anyone that the four chapters the prophet spent describing the measurement of every corner of the structure of a Temple is actually a reference a tablet, because of some vague notion of man being a temple.

Yes all that accept the Oneness of God and His Religions do indeed acknowledge that the G-d of Israel is G-d for all Humanity and All Faiths.

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That's [again] not what was prophesied.

Isa. 11:9
"...for the land shall be filled -with knowledge of G-d - like water covers the ocean."

That's a far cry from what you're stating here.

Baha'u'llah did not Fail to do so, humanity has done as history proves humanity is inclined to do.

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This statement does not seem to bear any relation to the statement it is in response to. The prophecies I've quoted describe the Messianic Age that Jews await. If the prophecies have not been fulfilled, than that's indication that the Messianic Age has not yet come. Whoever's shoulders you want to put that blame on is irrelevant.

No need to reply if you do not wish to explore this further. Unless of course you wish to explore this in greater detail. the Prophecy of Daniel indeed points to 1844.

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According to Jewish dating, the Second Temple construction began in the year 3408 AM. 2300 years later in the year 5708 the state of Israel came into being.

The funny thing about prophecies that all religions claim to be about their religion, is that you can't really use it to prove the veracity of any one of them.

The Book of revelation of Christianity points back to Daniel and also foretells of the year 1260.

AH1260, is AD1844.

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Oh, that's so interesting, I'm sure.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Elijah always comes First. The Bab was Elijah of the Baha'i revelation. The Bab prepared the way for Baha'u'llah, the 'Glory of God' or 'Glory of the Lord'. Carmel and Sharron have indeed seen the 'Glory of God'.



The ability to do that did happen in 1844 with the 'Edict of Toleration'. This document removed the restrictions and allowed the Jews to return to the Holy Land. "the times of the Gentiles" were "fulfilled." Edict of Toleration 1844 - Wikipedia



That is not a Temple of Brick and Clay, it is the Temple of Baha'u'llah - This is that Tablet - Tablet of the Temple

"The most important of His Tablets, addressed to individual sovereigns, Bahá'u'lláh ordered to be written in the form of a pentacle, symbolizing the temple of man, including therein, as a conclusion, the following words which reveal the importance He attached to those Messages, and indicate their direct association with the prophecy of the Old Testament:

"Thus have We built the Temple with the hands of power and might, could ye but know it. This is the Temple promised to you in the Book. Draw nigh unto it. This is that which profiteth you, could ye but comprehend it. Be fair, O peoples of the earth! Which is preferable, this, or a temple which is built of clay? Set your faces towards it. Thus have ye been commanded by God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Follow ye His bidding, and praise ye your God, your Lord, for that which He hath bestowed upon you. He, verily, is the Truth. No God is there but He. He revealeth what He pleaseth, through His words 'Be and it is.'"



Yes all that accept the Oneness of God and His Religions do indeed acknowledge that the G-d of Israel is G-d for all Humanity and All Faiths.



Baha'u'llah did not Fail to do so, humanity has done as history proves humanity is inclined to do.

No need to reply if you do not wish to explore this further. Unless of course you wish to explore this in greater detail. the Prophecy of Daniel indeed points to 1844. The Book of revelation of Christianity points back to Daniel and also foretells of the year 1260.

AH1260, is AD1844.

Regards Tony

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I'm being blunt.

Are you saying you know more than a Jew knows about his own faith?