How are these Great Beings explained?

loverofhumanity said:

The purpose of each Revelation was to rejuvenate people spiritually and advance humanity. They achieved that. They advanced humanity a step further.

But the truth in all religions is always live, live and brotherhood, peace and unity. The reason we don't see this in our world today is because religion has faded. So it is in need of renewal so hearts begin once again to feel compassion and love for all.

The spirit of love and brotherhood needs to urgently be reawakened in humanity if we are to prevent a third war. This is the urgent task of Baha'is.

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Which form of Christianity advanced humanity forward? The Roman Catholic Church?

loverofhumanity said:

There are Manifestations Who bring a new Religion and a Book and other Prophets Who are like Isaiah Who do not bring a separate religion but still are Prophets.

As regards fallibility I think I know some of the passages you speak of like God rebuking Moses. Abdul-Baha stated that the rebuke was meant for Israel not the Manifestation.

We believe that spiritual progress is impossible without belief in the infallibility of the Manifestations.

Here's a couple of quotes but you can find a lot more if you have time to read through compilations like Lights of Gudance.

“The Prophets ‘regarded as One and the same person’ include the Lesser Prophets as well, and not merely Those Who bring a ‘Book’. The station is different, but they are Prophets and Their nature thus different from that of ours.”

Excerpt From: Hornby. “Lights of Guidance.”

“the whole theory of Divine Revelation rests on the infallibility of the Prophet, be He Christ, Muhammad, Bahá’u’lláh, or one of the Others. If They are not infallible, then They are not divine, and thus lose that essential link with God which, we believe, is the bond that educates men and causes all human progress.”

Excerpt From: Hornby. “Lights of Guidance.” iBooks.

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So could you explain Judaism? It has Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses... all manifestations. Then it has several prophets. And then it has those that are "anointed". The main one being David. And still I don't think that within Judaism itself, any of them are considered what Baha'is call manifestations.

loverofhumanity said:

Yes there are many teachers and the world is full of religious people. Then why couldn't they prevent the great wars and wars since?

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Which manifestation has prevented wars? Some even fought in wars.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

You might not know that the Word and Creation can not be seperated.

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Of course I didn't know. I'm not a Baha'i'. You might not know that Hindus don't believe in Baha'i' theories.

CG Didymus said:

To be there, in that state of oneness, I wonder how different is that then what a prophet/manifestation has?

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I have no idea. But one key difference is that Hindu sages usually remain silent about it, or say very little. Whereas the 'prophets' talk all about it. For some reason, it seems they want everyone to know all about it. Hindus are patient to wait until each soul discovers it for themselves.

loverofhumanity said:

The thing is this Carlita. Baha'i's believe that God is the only Being Who knows truth as it really is. And so we follow that which God tells us through His Prophets as They are infallible.

Through God's Prophets we receive true and infallible knowledge. All the knowledge in existence must be weighed against what These Manifestations have stated and only what complies with what They have revealed is accepted as truth, the rest being discarded.

So Baha'is effectively, through the Manifestation are able to distinguish truth from falsehood, reality from myth and a teaching that comes from God from a man made superstition.

Baha'i's of themselves have no special knowledge. We are just ordinary people. But the Manifestation, the Spokesman for the All Knowing God, teaches us truth and so we are able to see clearly which concepts, ideas, theories and suppositions amongst the current Faiths are from God and which are man made.

How possibly can a person be called learned if he cannot recognise God's Manifestation even though he may have spent aeons in the pursuit of knowledge and acquired all human learning?

If an ignorant person, a simple unknown man of no standing or stature can recognise and accept God's Manifestation then he is really learned because he has recognized the Source of all knowledge.

It's like in the days of Jesus. The so called most knowledgeable people crucified a completely innocent Prophet only calling people to love and brotherhood. Today we see the same with Baha'u'llah. All sorts of 'learned' people come out of the closet to say they know more yet they don't.

We've had two world wars. And another is in the horizon. Maybe people won't care about the Teachings of Bahaullah until the third one happens but honestly why don't humanity try His Ways and see if they work or not and if not we can always go back to war.

Baha'i's are just pleading with the world to give Baha'u'llah's Teachings a go for their own sakes.

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Going backwards.

You said all revealed faiths have the same foundation. As a result, we should believe this too. It is about us.

If I believed all religions point to god, I'd talk in a way that mirrors my belief. I'd say "We, as a humanity, believe in god. Some people may have trouble believing and others believe differently, but we all believe in god. To those who say they don't believe in god, will one day. That is why we have many wars because some people stray away from god's teachings and causes spiritual division among themselves. We as a lover of humanity need to work together as people who focus on one god."

That is what unity among diversity does. It (the idea) makes diversity have one foundation.

That is just an example of how I would think Bahai would phrase their belief giving their belief statements and tenants. I'd think it would be we-humanity.

I mean, as a lover of humanity, why speak from your community and not as a whole? I know people will disagree with you; and, logically, if you're claiming that humanity points to on god, speak of humanity not just what Bahai believe.

We already know. Upgrade a bit to the next level.

How do we build greater peace to where we all agree with each other?

Tumah said:

Sorry for the delayed response, I recently had a baby and was busy with associated rituals.

I don't think we have anything similar really. I mean, we are put into a separate system to the Noahide one by Moses, but that's not a nod to the times as we believe there was always meant to be an Israelite nation (although which nation would be granted that name was up in the air for a while).

When it comes it comes to Jewish prophets in general, although they are each bringing their own message, its always within the context of the system already in place. So Isaiah or Micah didn't create a new Judaism for the times, its always about returning to the system already in place.

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No problem. I'm just now reading your post. So thanks for taking the time, and congratulations.

Vinayaka said:

We have been doing exactly that. Where have you been? Your entire argument is "Baha'u'llah is infallible. What he said is true." That's not really much of an argument. If you went to a court over an arson charge, and said, "I didn't do it. I'm infallible, and what I say is true!" do you really think the judge let you off?

So just where would you like to start? You said that Baha'u'llah was self-taught, and claimed that to be some proof of his infallibility. I countered with a long list of famous people who were self taught. You never replied to that, but just chose to ignore it. What can I say?

So again, how do you explain the ability to self-teach? Do you at least acknowledge that many people have done what your prophet did? It's a fact after all. You are agreeing with facts no?

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If a manifestation brings a new religion, then what religion did Krishna bring? If Hinduism was already established, and Krishna didn't start it, then already the infallible ones are wrong.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Tumah said: ↑
"When it comes it comes to Jewish prophets in general, although they are each bringing their own message, its always within the context of the system already in place. So Isaiah or Micah didn't create a new Judaism for the times, its always about returning to the system already in place.
That is compatiable with what is Progressive Revelation."

Your response:

"I would Offer Christ also showed progression in the same system of our One God."

May all be well and happy.

Regards Tony

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The progression Tumah is talking about is within Judaism and it doesn't change the Jewish beliefs. The Baha'i progression depends on all religions having misinterpreted or changed their original beliefs. That way Baha'is can claim that originally all religions taught the same thing. But if all of them taught the wrong thing, then how does the progression work? How did civilization advance by following false notions about their religions?

Vinayaka said:

Indeed they should. Problem is everyone Abrahamic claims they know what God said, and they all differ. In Hinduism we don't make such a silly claim in the first place.

I think most reasonable people can recognise contradictions and falsehoods when they see them.

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What does being reasonable have to do with it? Baha'u'llah said there are no contradictions so that settles it.

Vinayaka said:

I have no idea. But one key difference is that Hindu sages usually remain silent about it, or say very little. Whereas the 'prophets' talk all about it. For some reason, it seems they want everyone to know all about it. Hindus are patient to wait until each soul discovers it for themselves.

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I know we've said it before, but they are so similar to Islam, a updated, liberalized Islam. But according to them, the right thing for all Hindus to have done was recognize Muhammad as God's new messenger and converted. I wonder how Islam was first presented to the Hindus? And then, I wonder why they didn't want to convert? Somehow I doubt in was in peace and love and unity.

Carlita said:

Is there a clear cut answer? I've been asking this too.

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Carlita - This explains it fully; quoted below; What is a Baha'i? - Baha'i Blog

What is a Baha’i? An obvious question for a person who has just come across the Baha’i Faith, but likewise a question that people who have already professed their belief in Baha’u’llah should perhaps regularly ask themselves. And for others who may not profess acceptance of Baha’u’llah and His claims, but who chose to behave in an upright manner, the question obtains equal importance. In the Arabic Hidden Words, Baha’u’llah states:

O SON OF BEING! Bring thyself to account each day ere thou art summoned to a reckoning; for death, unheralded, shall come upon thee and thou shalt be called to give account for thy deeds.

An examination of the Baha’i Sacred Texts amply provides us with detailed information on what it means to be a Baha’i, and regular contemplation and application of this guidance will provide a light and a guide in which a person can place their deeds. Likewise, it provides a means of aiding one to set goals for improvement in behaviour and attitude. It must be made clear at the start, however, that the question asks not “who”, but “what” is a Baha’i. And in the light of the guidance in the Baha’i Sacred Texts, even the question of “who” cannot be assumed to be one who has recognised Baha’u’llah as the Manifestation of God for this day. An instance in point are these statements from Abdu’l-Baha:

When Christians act according to the teachings of Christ, they are called Baha’is. For the foundations of Christianity and the religion of Baha’u’llah are one. The foundations of all the divine Prophets and Holy Books are one. The difference among them is one of terminology only. … Whoever acts completely in accordance with the teachings of Christ is a Baha’i. The purpose is the essential meaning of Christian, not the mere word. The purpose is the sun itself and not the dawning points.1

And again:

It makes no difference whether you have ever heard of Baha’u’llah or not,” was the answer, “the man who lives the life according to the teachings of Baha’u’llah is already a Baha’i. On the other hand a man may call himself a Baha’i for fifty years and if he does not live the life he is not a Baha’i. An ugly man may call himself handsome, but he deceives no one, and a black man may call himself white yet he deceives no one: not even himself!2

So it is obvious that the name “Baha’i” can be applied to a person who has declared a recognition of Baha’u’llah and His Revelation and is a recognised member of the Baha’i community, and likewise to a person who may never have heard of Baha’u’llah but who abides by the standards expected of a Baha’i. So what are these standards?

A Baha’i denies no religion; he accepts the Truth in all, and would die to uphold it. He loves all men as his brothers, of whatever class, of whatever race or nationality, of whatever creed or colour, whether good or bad, rich or poor, beautiful or hideous. He commits no violence; if he is struck he does not return the blow. He calls nothing bad, following the example of the Lord Baha’u’llah.3

In brief, let each one of you be as a lamp shining forth with the light of the virtues of the world of humanity. Be trustworthy, sincere, affectionate and replete with chastity. Be illumined, be spiritual, be divine, be glorious, be quickened of God, be a Baha’i.4

What are the requirements? Love for mankind, sincerity toward all, reflecting the oneness of the world of humanity, philanthropy, becoming enkindled with the fire of the love of God, attainment to the knowledge of God and that which is conducive to human welfare.5

I desire distinction for you. The Baha’is must be distinguished from others of humanity. But this distinction must not depend upon wealth—that they should become more affluent than other people. I do not desire for you financial distinction. It is not an ordinary distinction I desire; not scientific, commercial, industrial distinction. For you I desire spiritual distinction—that is, you must become eminent and distinguished in morals. In the love of God you must become distinguished from all else. You must become distinguished for loving humanity, for unity and accord, for love and justice. In brief, you must become distinguished in all the virtues of the human world—for faithfulness and sincerity, for justice and fidelity, for firmness and steadfastness, for philanthropic deeds and service to the human world, for love toward every human being, for unity and accord with all people, for removing prejudices and promoting international peace. Finally, you must become distinguished for heavenly illumination and for acquiring the bestowals of God. I desire this distinction for you. This must be the point of distinction among you.6

But you say – he has given only quotes from the Master! What of the Blessed Beauty? What of the Words of Baha’u’llah? This has been left to last, deliberately, on the assumption that what is read last will be remembered longest.

Be generous in prosperity, and thankful in adversity. Be worthy of the trust of thy neighbor, and look upon him with a bright and friendly face. Be a treasure to the poor, an admonisher to the rich, an answerer of the cry of the needy, a preserver of the sanctity of thy pledge. Be fair in thy judgment, and guarded in thy speech. Be unjust to no man, and show all meekness to all men. Be as a lamp unto them that walk in darkness, a joy to the sorrowful, a sea for the thirsty, a haven for the distressed, an upholder and defender of the victim of oppression. Let integrity and uprightness distinguish all thine acts. Be a home for the stranger, a balm to the suffering, a tower of strength for the fugitive. Be eyes to the blind, and a guiding light unto the feet of the erring. Be an ornament to the countenance of truth, a crown to the brow of fidelity, a pillar of the temple of righteousness, a breath of life to the body of mankind, an ensign of the hosts of justice, a luminary above the horizon of virtue, a dew to the soil of the human heart, an ark on the ocean of knowledge, a sun in the heaven of bounty, a gem on the diadem of wisdom, a shining light in the firmament of thy generation, a fruit upon the tree of humility.7

1) Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p.470
2) Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p.127
3) Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p.127
4) Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p.470
5) Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p.470
6) Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p.470
7) Baha’u’llah, Gleanings From the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p.346

Regards Tony

I read this in full.

Vinayaka said:

I haven't found your message. That means I'm godless? Fallowing a false faith?

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Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Then Christians act according to the teachings of Christ, they are called Baha’is. For the foundations of Christianity and the religion of Baha’u’llah are one. The foundations of all the divine Prophets and Holy Books are one. Th

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Hindu, Buddhist, Jews, and Muslims have told you otherwise. Do you think they are lying?

How do you be in unity when they disagree with you?

You offered but it goes deeper than offering. If you make a claim for unity, it becomes and action and discussion with people who agree and disagree with you.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

… Whoever acts completely in accordance with the teachings of Christ is a Baha’i.

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A Christian will say no. Does that matter to you?

If you were not promoting peace as a tenant of your faith, I'd let it go. You are. So, what type of peace does Bahuallah want (greater peace) since he doesn't take into consideration the distinguishing truths of other faiths as opposed to his?

How do you build peace with someone who disagrees with you? Wouldn't you both have to say "yes, let us work this out"?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

e man who lives the life according to the teachings of Baha’u’llah is already a Baha’i

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That is false. I am no more Bahai than Vinakaya and everyone else. Does that matter?

Is it about you or about humanity?

That's my point.

CG Didymus said:

When it comes to religion, how long has it been a right to believe whatever you want? In the past didn't some civilization have one religion, and if a person didn't follow it they could be killed? Even until recent times, doesn't it seem like children were almost forced to believe and follow the religion of their parents?

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God gave Free Will, thus God has always allowed that free will, of course man has different ideas. I found a few quotes that go back a few thousand years;https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+9:7&version=ESV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+9:7&version=ESV
The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr) : Surah 2 "Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error; whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+9:7&version=ESV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+9:7&version=ESV
Bible 2 Corinthians 9:7"Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."

Vedas : Rig Veda - Book 10 - 6 Holding his station firmly in the houses, Trita sat down within his home surrounded
Thence, as Law bids, departs the Tribes' Companion having collected men with no compulsion.

Hindu : The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali 1.37. Or the mind taking as an object of concentration those who are freed of compulsion.

Hindu : Ramayana (R. Dutt, abridged tr) "......Speak your thought, my chiefs and people, if this purpose please you well,
Or if wiser, better counsel in your wisdom ye can tell,
Speak your thoughts without compulsion, though this plan to me be dear,
If some middle course were wiser, if some other way were clear!...."

Regards Tony

Carlita said:

How do you be in unity when they disagree with you?

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There is no compulsion in Religion

We Live Peace with all Humanity

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Baha'u'llah offers and did not choose control.

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I don't know or care to know what Baha'u'''ah offered. I am only pointing out your hypocrisy.

By claiming that other religions' adherents took control of G-d's message and changed it in order to be different based on what you "know" to be true as a Baha'i, you are attempting to control other religions' messages and change them.

No one has to even consider the Message,

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Thanks to poor Baha'i argument, I don't think many people are.

no one even has to reply to any post by a Baha'i.

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This is a debate forum. A religions debate forum no less. Replying and arguing with religion is what we do here.

The Message of G-d will find hearts that willingly look.

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There's no doubt about that. The only doubt is whether the content of the message is what you believe it to be...

Carlita said:

A Christian will say no. Does that matter to you?

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No - Good on them, well done to them. It means they are a True Christian.

Regards Tony

Carlita said:

That is false. I am no more Bahai than Vinakaya and everyone else. Does that matter?

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Only if it matters to you, if you do or do not want to live the virtues required.

Regards Tony

Tumah said:

Thanks to poor Baha'i argument, I don't think many people are.

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Would you face G-d with that excuse, if you had personally failed to find the Truth, when told about in any capacity?

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

There is no compulsion in Religion

We Live Peace with all Humanity

Regards Tony

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Disagreement isn't compulsion. It just means difference of opinion.

I don't understand how that relates to my question.