DavidFirth
Well-Known Member
No one ever said, Bow to me or die, but rather that each person will be judged. All of us come up short because of wrong doing so we need a righteous person to die in our stead. Hence, the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
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All non Christians ought to be crucified....
- Thread starter LukeS
- Start date
No one ever said, Bow to me or die, but rather that each person will be judged. All of us come up short because of wrong doing so we need a righteous person to die in our stead. Hence, the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
No, on the contrary, Christians are the ones who are crucified daily. They become more like Jesus as a result.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Same thing.
And Jesus says it in his parable.
"... Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
Be ruled by me, - or go to Hell. Torture? Die?
No we don't need a righteous person to die in our stead.
Murder and suicide are against the law in the Bible. Take your pick with Jesus.
Pagan Human sacrifices are condemned.
It is ridiculous to think some God would send himself to be murdered/commit suicide to save humans. As well as he is supposedly a trinity God, and can't die, so no actual sacrifice there. You folk claim he was, and still is. So, no sacrifice.
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DavidFirth
Well-Known Member
God does have the right to judge His creation. It isn't murder, it's righteous judgement. I think you have a problem with God judging and in many cases finding people guilty and punishing them.
It isn't ridiculous for God to sacrifice his son on a cross to pay for our sin. God is Holy, His judgement must be holy, so someone has to pay the price. God paid that price for all those who believe because He loves us and is very merciful to us.
Purple1
Member
So,
“Anyone can believe anything. Believing doesn't do anything.”
Google: Believe
1. accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of.
2. hold (something) as an opinion; think or suppose.
I don’t agree that Believing doesn’t do anything.
Believing is, in many cases, the basis for behaviour. The reason, the “why”, someone acts such and such way and not this and that way.
To believe is to belief.
Beliefs causes behaviour.
Paul believes his souls needs to be saved; he goes to church every day.
Emma believes the government is stealing her thoughts; she wears a thin foil hat.
Zesteqr believes his neighbor killed his wife; he kills his neighbor.
…
Beliefs causes mental states
Edward believes Shelley believes in Satan (or follows); he is suspicious of her.
Shelley believes Edward is acting strange; she becomes worried.
Edward believes he is paranoid; he starts questioning his beliefs.
There is a myriad of example that could be formulated here. Those ones are simple one liners, but in the real world were the subjects or individuals thinks, acts, experiences, etc. it becomes far more complicated.
The guy who started this topic; if he isn’t “trolling” or making a bold statement to provoke discussion; might actually believe that “All non Christians ought to be crucified…” – what if he his questioning himself? If he his, he’s actually trying to form a belief on that subject. What if he ends up accepting “All non Christians ought to be crucified…” as a truth? This is what his belief will be from there on, until someone put some sense into him or until he realises that this isn’t a truth. But what if he doesn’t realise that? Will he take it on himself to go out, hunt non Christians and crucifix them? Will he join an extremist or terrorist group? A belief is the foundation for thoughts, actions and inactions. Even if he ends up believing that, yes: “All non Christians ought to be crucified…”; maybe he will never act on it. maybe he will though. We cannot be sure, because we lack information; about him, about his current beliefs, about his intentions…
I could argue that ISIS’s belief is that the Western civilzations are corrupted by the Devil; therefor ISIS must do everything in it’s power to cleanse the Western civilizations. And this is why this war is currently going on. You could say that the true intent of ISIS is to gain territorial control and economical power and that it was never about the Devil “gaining territory”; maybe this is what the true intent of their leaders is, but what about the beliefs of their subordinate? What about those suicide bombers that scream the name of Allah while pressing that button; why do they do it? I believe they do it, because of their beliefs.
This “real world” situation or “current events” is just used as an example and I don’t pretend to have a good understanding of it.
All that meaning that beliefs do matter.
Might I add, to end, that this whole text I just wrote is about me believing my belief that beliefs are important in contrast to you believing your belief that beliefs are unimportant; or insignificant. (And here I wonder, if I’ve had it wrong and this is not at all your belief? Hehehe…)
Also, I’ll have to take a closer look at all those other things you wrote about, I’ve read it all but they seemed, at the time, far more complex to understand for me compared to the concept of “Beliefs”. I will, however, answer when I figure it out. (No idea what to say at this time, but I sure like all this new (to me) information.)
Purple1
Member
I might just start referring to this thread when people question why I'm not interested in Christianity, anymore.
lol.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
1. I believe I can fly
2. I think, ponder, have faith, and reflect that this is true.
3. I try to fly based on my belief nothing happens.
Belief does nothing.
4. Instead, I save up some money in my bank account
5. I ask for leave so I can go on a vacation
6. I go on the plane and fly by plane
These verbs-these actions-means I am doing something to confirm what I believe and what to do.
When you come into the body of christ in mass, it is an action, a communion.
When you're just siting watching t.v. believing in christ, it's a feeling and emotion but it is not an action. You can feel like you're saved all day long. Nothing wrong with that.
In my experience, it's beyond feeling. It's involvement. It's an action.
I never believed in god. I experienced god through the spirit of christ. That is how I believed in god was through christ. That is how I knew him or defined him. Without christ, I am an atheist. I know god does not exist.
This is just Catholicism teachings. After reading the bible, I realized christ is not god; so, my participation in Mass became mute.
But it was never a belief. It was all action and devotion.
I can believe I will pass my exam and do all my work by Monday, but if I don't pick up my pencil and cut on my laptop, the work won't finish itself by divine magic. It takes effort on my part as well.
DavidFirth
Well-Known Member
If you truly believed you could fly you'd either be dead or had changed your mind about it by now.
Purple1
Member
Here's my version of it:
1. I believe I can fly.
2. I think, ponder, have faith, and reflect that this is true.
3b. I climb the stairs up the the 99th floor of a tower. I try to fly; I die.
Your situation isn't false, but neither is mine.
I guess it depends on the intensity of the belief, and the intensity of the actions that will be taken accordingly to the belief. It also depends on the individuals "whole mentality" and "experiences".
You could argue that the person you are talking about is sane; and that the person I am talking about is insane. But is sanity or insanity caused only by someone's biology? by someone's brain? or also by someone's belief?
They had the same belief that they could fly. But yours ended up living, mine ended up dead. Where is the difference? What made one live and the other die?
Should we assume one is intelligent and the other is stupid?
Maybe their definition of flying was not exactly the same; maybe the intensity of their desire what not exactly the same; maybe their logic was not exactly the same... maybe one saw superman fly off a building, the other saw Neo fly off the ground. It's all very complicated what belief can lead someone to do.
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I do however agree about the importance of action and devotion.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
That makes sense. Notice we both had to "act" in order for our beliefs to be confirmed.
I saved up to fly by plain and you walked up the stairs.
Do you see how action is a part of the execution whether it be by salvation as a christian or not as an non-christian?
Purple1
Member
But to even arrive at the point of "being in a mass". The person must have either a Belief or a reason to be there (i.e. a parent takes a kid to a mass; the kid doesn't believe anything nor does he feel the obligation or the need to be there; he is taken there by someone else even if he would have rater played alone in his room.)
I'm not implying this is true of all kid, this is an example.
If you are an adult with a free will and liberty to do as you wish; why is it that you would choose to go to Church to attend a mass? It must be because you have a belief or a system of beliefs that make you decide to go to church; that make you act on it.
You could be sitting at the bar, drinking a mojito - but you are sitting in a church, attending a christian mass.
Your beliefs took you there.
Purple1
Member
Purple1
Member
I dont understand this at the moment, but I will look at it again tomorrow.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Since all sin, - it would be murder. This idea in Christianity makes no sense at all, - and does not jive with the love and all knowing God idea.
In your Bible - this God is skitzo and murdering the innocent for other's supposed crimes, from the beginning. His "laws" allow rape, owning women, owning sex slaves, murder, slavery, etc.
This is NOT God. This is just ancient patriarchal men's writings giving themselves the right to do what they want to do.
And the idea of sacrificing a God-son whom can't actually die, as some sort of sacrifice to himself - is ridiculous.
*
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Yeah, uh, sure.
Glad we agree that the 'Bible is true based on historical context' argument is silly after all.
Purple1
Member
First, I want to say - I don't know much about yours views on Christianity - except from what I can understand about reading what you are saying here.I would however like to say something about what you are saying.
You are quoting Luke 19, which comes right after Luke 18 and right before Luke 20.
More precisely, you are quoting Luke 19:27 that comes right after Luke 19:26 and right before Luke 19:28.
More importantly, you are referring to a "section" of the text that is titled: The Parable of the Ten Minas.
Which you must have known, since you said to begin with:
At first honestly, I didn't know about this passage or "quote" and this causes me a bit of confusion as of what to do about it. As I cannot say that I agree with your views in general; but I must admit that passages or "quotes" like that have been, for a long time, a mystery to me.
Thanks to you, I now understand a bit more than I did half an hour ago.
Since I was confused as of what to say, and it was a direct quote from the Bible, I went on and found Luke 19:27 on the Internet. The quote didn't make more sense to me because even though I don't know all the bible, and I couldn't possibly quote 1 single verse with the use of my memory; I still don't see Jesus Christ as someone who would advocate murder.
So i went to Luke 19:26, then Luke 19:25 - I then decided to change wepbage and to go read the full Luke 19; which I repeat, comes right after Luke 18 and right before Luke 20.
I then realised, that this wasn't Jesus speaking about his intentions, or his will. It was him speaking about the intentions and will of someone else; an unnamed King.
What I found is that, this was indeed a Parable;
*( par·a·ble
ˈperəb(ə)l/
noun
noun: parable; plural noun: parables
a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels.
synonyms: allegory, moral story/tale, fable, exemplum
"the parable of the prodigal son" )*
in other word, it's a story told.
Jesus is not saying:
Jesus is telling a story about a man, a king, who is saying those words. Is telling a Parable.
I could have stopped at the fact that it was a quote, a real one from one of the New Testament/Bible; but I truly wanted to understand the meaning of this quote and what in entailed.
As in almost any and every text out there (if not all texts), if you take something that is said out of context and use it "as is"; it might look quite crazy, extreme or non-sensical.
Let me quote Luke 19 here.
Don't feel obligated to read it. Although I think it might come in handy.
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Luke 19
New International Version (NIV)
Zacchaeus the Tax Collector
19 Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.
5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.
7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”
8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
The Parable of the Ten Minas
11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12 He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.a]">[a] ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’
14 “But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’
15 “He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.
16 “The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned ten more.’
17 “‘Well done, my good servant!’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’
18 “The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.’
19 “His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’
20 “Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’
22 “His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’
24 “Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’
25 “‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’
26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”
Jesus Comes to Jerusalem as King
28 After Jesus had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. 29 As he approached Bethphage and Bethany at the hill called the Mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples, saying to them, 30 “Go to the village ahead of you, and as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. 31 If anyone asks you, ‘Why are you untying it?’ say, ‘The Lord needs it.’”
32 Those who were sent ahead went and found it just as he had told them. 33 As they were untying the colt, its owners asked them, “Why are you untying the colt?”
34 They replied, “The Lord needs it.”
35 They brought it to Jesus, threw their cloaks on the colt and put Jesus on it. 36 As he went along, people spread their cloaks on the road.
37 When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen:
38 “Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!”b]">[b]
“Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”
39 Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples!”
40 “I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”
41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”
Jesus at the Temple
45 When Jesus entered the temple courts, he began to drive out those who were selling. 46 “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be a house of prayer’c]">[c]; but you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’d]">[d]”
47 Every day he was teaching at the temple. But the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the leaders among the people were trying to kill him. 48 Yet they could not find any way to do it, because all the people hung on his words.
Footnotes:
- Luke 19:13 A mina was about three months’ wages.
- Luke 19:38 Psalm 118:26
- Luke 19:46 Isaiah 56:7
- Luke 19:46 Jer. 7:11
I am not going to dive into the analysis of this text (Luke 19, that came after Luke 18 and before Luke 20), nor of the Parabole of the Ten Minas at this time.
But I've read it, and it is clear to me that Jesus isn't saying what you say he is saying; you used his words out of context as a mean to prove something you believe in. One of your beliefs.
I don't consider myself a Christian; but I also dont believe Jesus would advocate murder; this is simply not how I see or know Jesus; whether he existed or not and whether he was the son of God or not doesn't matter here. And after reading Luke 19, I can assure you that this is not what he says in this verse (Luke 19:27)
But I can say that if you want to criticize an Idea coherently, you need to understand that idea first; therefor analyze that same idea beforehand.
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Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Oh. I believe in spirits of people outside of christianity; and, I dont see christ as an exclusion. After reading the bible and understanding the christian faith by experience, I don't agree that a human spirit can be a creator.
I do believe, just like my family in spirit, I can live through them if I chose to (which I do now).
I never believed in a creator and always defined god recently as life rather than a being or spirit. So when you die in christ, you are literally sacrificing yourself/your sins in the blood and body of christ with and in Mass. That was the only way I understood what they meant by god was through Mass. When you connect with christ, you connect with life.
Catholicism believes that christ is god himself. Since I don't believe that (though I love the church immensely), nor heaven, hell, satan, and all of that and don't have inspiration from the bible, I felt like living a lie by staying in the Church. Also, the body believes that you are consuming an actual human sacrifice. I do not agree. I agree that we consume a sacrificial meal.
So there are differences with christianity, big ones, that made me leave. Though, christ spirit as the life/god/spirit of the body won't leave me. That I know is true. I haven't found a christian denomination that sees it that way without seeing human sacrifice as a positive thing.
Curious George
Veteran Member
I think that we would first need to understand whether you are asking of literal or metaphorical crucifixion. If we are discussing crucixion as a form of judgement..
It is an interesting question. We cannot deny that people have been put to death for their lack of belief. To those with the power to do so, this was the logical conclusion.
Furthermore, many Christian faiths maintain a belief in a hell. This concept involves a judgement on a person for their beliefs.
I think that though contemporary christianity, in most cases, leads us to the inevitable conclusion that a person is and should be judged for their beliefs. While many christians point to concepts such as judge not lest ye be judged, we can still find instances wherein christians judge and criticize persons because of beliefs which do not accept their particular christian view. If we were to grant that there exists a Christian view that was not critical of persons with contrary views(hate the sin not the sinner), i cannot imagine that we would find any mainstream Christian view that held that it was not logical for God to be critical of a person because of their views.
With this said, I think that it is important to ask whether it is logical for people to be cricicized for their beliefs. I think the answer is difficult if we are to answer honestly. While beliefs may not be something we control, beliefs do inform our actions. So, it may not be strictly logical, but it is very practical.
DavidFirth
Well-Known Member
Well, it's true because it is God's word and God is Holy, almighty and everlasting. That's why it's true. I was just giving an example of archaeology confirming some of the history in Exodus.
DavidFirth
Well-Known Member
God cannot murder. God created men and it is His right to decide who lives and who dies. The One who gives life can also take it away.
One last verse before I put you on ignore for speaking abhorrent things about my God and Savior in earnest.
Job 1:21
"Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised."