Idolatry in Islam

Lyndon · Jul 28, 2017

I agree, it is not plagiarism for either Jesus or Mohammad IMHO.

LukeS · Jul 28, 2017

The face of Allah, I think it means the brighter side of life. You see his face, not literally, but its the opposite of His wrath. You don't see his wrath either, just signs of it.

PatrickLeo · Jul 28, 2017

LukeS said:
The face of Allah, I think it means the brighter side of life. You see his face, not literally, but its the opposite of His wrath. You don't see his wrath either, just signs of it.

Ok

Jeremiah Ames · Jul 28, 2017

LuisDantas said:
Doesn't that mean that any theistic faith will be idolatric according to all other such faiths until and unless they agree that they do, in fact, worship the same god?

It does not look like a very useful concept.

Yes, I would agree completely with you.

Ricktheheretic · Jul 29, 2017

PatrickLeo said:
Muslim God has a Face? (an image)

But Muslims don't depict God. Its not the same as making a graven image or idol.

In the Bible sometimes God is anthropomorphic. In Genesis 18 the Lord visits Abram with two angels and eats food. In Genesis 32 Jacob wrestles with God somewhere and he names that place Peni'el. So Jacob called the name of the place Peni′el, saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life is preserved.” Genesis 32:30 RSV

Britedream · Jul 29, 2017

Muslims only describe God, as God described himself in his book, or as described by his prophet. So if God said he has a face, then he has one, he knows about himself more than we know. But we can't say that his face is like our faces, because he said, there is nothing like him.

Looncall · Jul 29, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
People performed Circumambulations when the Kaaba was destroyed, and when the Black Stone was stolen for Decades. The Location of the Kaaba is practically at the Centre of the Earth, and so for that reason people would perform the hajj without the Kaaba or Black Stone, just to honour God's chosen spot for the first House of Worship. God says, He would rather it was destroyed than a single Muslim risk their blood trying to protect it.

Center of the earth? How can a spot on the surface of a sphere be at its center?

Please explain.

Desert Snake · Jul 30, 2017

Looncall said:
Center of the earth? How can a spot on the surface of a sphere be at its center?

Please explain.

It might be if the earth were a flat pancake.

Muslim-UK · Jul 30, 2017

Britedream said:
Muslims only describe God, as God described himself in his book, or as described by his prophet. So if God said he has a face, then he has one, he knows about himself more than we know. But we can't say that his face is like our faces, because he said, there is nothing like him.

I believe it involves the Geographical Centre of Earth using calculations based on Land Mass. There were also calculations done on the Pyramids of Egypt that showed they had been perfectly aligned to Land/Sea ratio. Geographical centre of Earth - Wikipedia

LuisDantas · Jul 30, 2017

Looncall said:
Center of the earth? How can a spot on the surface of a sphere be at its center?

Please explain.

This, please.

Muslim-UK · Jul 30, 2017

syncretic said:
It might be if the earth were a flat pancake.

“And the earth, moreover, hath He made spread out (egg shaped).” وَٱلۡأَرۡضَ بَعۡدَ ذَٲلِكَ دَحَٮٰهَآ

دَحَٮٰهَآ = Dahaahaa
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL

[Al-Qur’an 79:30]

The Arabic word for egg here is dahaahaa which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the Earth. Thus the Qur’an correctly describes the shape of the Earth, though the prevalent notion when the Qur’an was revealed was that the Earth was flat.

LuisDantas · Jul 30, 2017

YmirGF · Jul 30, 2017

Augustus said:
Adaptation and evolutions of cultural heritage is not 'plagiarism'. I've always found that line of reasoning particularly vacuous.

Simply new distortions on age old stories.

YmirGF · Jul 30, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
“And the earth, moreover, hath He made spread out (egg shaped).” وَٱلۡأَرۡضَ بَعۡدَ ذَٲلِكَ دَحَٮٰهَآ

دَحَٮٰهَآ = Dahaahaa
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL

[Al-Qur’an 79:30]

The Arabic word for egg here is dahaahaa which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the Earth. Thus the Qur’an correctly describes the shape of the Earth, though the prevalent notion when the Qur’an was revealed was that the Earth was flat.

Aside from all the references to the Earth being flat also found in the Qur'an, of course.

Augustus · Jul 30, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
though the prevalent notion when the Qur’an was revealed was that the Earth was flat.

People had known the world was round for 1000+ years by this point.

Muslim-UK said:
The Location of the Kaaba is practically at the Centre of the Earth, and so for that reason people would perform the hajj without the Kaaba or Black Stone, just to honour God's chosen spot for the first House of Worship.

The geographical centre of Earth is the geometric centre of all land surfaces on Earth. In a more strict definition, it is the superficial barycenter of the mass distribution produced by treating each continent or island as a region of a thin shell of uniform density and approximating the geoid with a sphere.

While there is a fair amount of competition, that's right up there as one of the most spurious self-aggrandising religious boasts.

"If we choose some arbitrary measurement and also assume the Earth is completely different to how it actually is, then we can claim it is the 'Centre of the Earth'"

Muslim-UK · Jul 30, 2017

Augustus said:
While there is a fair amount of competition, that's right up there as one of the most spurious self-aggrandising religious boasts.

"If we choose some arbitrary measurement and also assume the Earth is completely different to how it actually is, then we can claim it is the 'Centre of the Earth'"

I recall you saying:

Augustus said:
The region was full of literate people, other sites (and Kabaas) of Arab pilgrimage are mentioned, but nobody ever mentions it depite the fact that Arabs had formed a major part of both the Persian and Roman armies for centuries.

How can such an important place, close to the 'centre of the world', not be mentioned? Surely you would expect numerous explicit references as Arabia was hardly an isolated backwater.

Pagan influence on Christianity

Augustus · Jul 30, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
I recall you saying:

Note the 'quotes', in that context I was talking about the significance/importance of the fertile crescent, not "the superficial barycenter of the mass distribution produced by treating each continent or island as a region of a thin shell of uniform density and approximating the geoid with a sphere".

Muslim-UK · Jul 30, 2017

YmirGF said:
Aside from all the references to the Earth being flat also found in the Qur'an, of course.

Check the context of the verses. Flat to walk on, yes absolutely. Flat in shape, er no.

You only have to look at what early Islamic Scholars had to say on the matter:

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) narrated that from Abu’l-Husayn ibn al-Munaadi (may Allah have mercy on him), when he said:
Imam Abu’l-Husayn Ahmad ibn Ja‘far ibn al-Munaadi narrated from the prominent scholars who are well Known for knowledge of reports and major works in religious sciences, from the second level of Ahmad’s companions, that there was no difference of opinion among the scholars that the sky is like a ball. He said: Similarly they were unanimously agreed that the Earth, with all that is contains of land and sea is like a ball. He said: That is indicated by the fact that the sun, moon and stars do not rise and set over those who are in different parts of the earth at the same time; rather that occurs in the east before it occurs in the west.

YmirGF · Jul 30, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
Check the context of the verses. Flat to walk on, yes absolutely. Flat in shape, er no.

You only have to look at what early Islamic Scholars had to say on the matter:

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) narrated that from Abu’l-Husayn ibn al-Munaadi (may Allah have mercy on him), when he said:
Imam Abu’l-Husayn Ahmad ibn Ja‘far ibn al-Munaadi narrated from the prominent scholars who are well Known for knowledge of reports and major works in religious sciences, from the second level of Ahmad’s companions, that there was no difference of opinion among the scholars that the sky is like a ball. He said: Similarly they were unanimously agreed that the Earth, with all that is contains of land and sea is like a ball. He said: That is indicated by the fact that the sun, moon and stars do not rise and set over those who are in different parts of the earth at the same time; rather that occurs in the east before it occurs in the west.

I understand all this quite well, but it almost goes without saying that the average Muslim for generations after Muhammad assumed, like everyone else, that the Earth was flat regardless of what a few "scholars" thought.

Desert Snake · Jul 30, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
“And the earth, moreover, hath He made spread out (egg shaped).” وَٱلۡأَرۡضَ بَعۡدَ ذَٲلِكَ دَحَٮٰهَآ

دَحَٮٰهَآ = Dahaahaa
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL

[Al-Qur’an 79:30]

The Arabic word for egg here is dahaahaa which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the Earth. Thus the Qur’an correctly describes the shape of the Earth, though the prevalent notion when the Qur’an was revealed was that the Earth was flat.

That would actually be a good description of a cracked open egg, and 'spread out', generally making an irregular shape, /continents, and oceans.

The land would even approximate the yolk part, with the white of the egg, representing the oceans.

It is almost the perfect description of how that "flat earth" would be percieved.

If you want to interpret this as 'egg' shaped, that is your prerogative, however it doesn't seem as straightforward, to me.

I personally have no problem with 'flat earth', references, in texts, if they are there. I even call myself a "flat earther", because in a perspective manner, the earth is flat. /doesn't bother me.

Idolatry in Islam

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