Noahide Ex- Christians

Kemosloby · Jul 28, 2017

Yohanan ben Yaaqov said:
Idolatry is punishable by death; Blasphemy is punishable by death; Adultery is punishable by death.

All three of these occur within one verse of the very first page of your chr-stian storybook.

Your story claims that a god impregnated a human and created a demigod. That is the most common belief in all pagan religions, therefore idolatry.

You accuse the God of Israel of being the perpetrator of this pagan practice and that is blasphemy.

The woman being impregnated was married to someone and that is adultery.

Three capital offenses all inside of one verse. Chr-stianity condemns itself as being Avodah Zarah half way into the first page of its storybook.

Perhaps death isn't the deciding factor, but that there is a penalty. Something isn't a law unless there is a penalty attached. Aside from the first law, not to eat from the tree of knowledge, punishable by death. Do you see any more penalties until Moses? After Moses everything seems to have a penalty attached to it.

columbus · Jul 28, 2017

Kemosloby said:
Not until Moses does everything seem to have a penalty attached to it.

That's because Moses is from a completely different culture. In a completely different book.
Moses was the first leader of the Israelite nation, as described in Exodus. Genesis, from Adam to the patriarchs, was from when the Children of Abraham were a family. So, of course, a lot of things are different. Particularly the way their society was organized and regulated.
Tom

Kemosloby · Jul 28, 2017

columbus said:
That's because Moses is from a completely different culture. In a completely different book.
Moses was the first leader of the Israelite nation, as described in Exodus. Genesis, from Adam to the patriarchs, was from when the Children of Abraham were a family. So, of course, a lot of things are different. Particularly the way their society was organized and regulated.
Tom

You don't believe the whole God thing do you?

columbus · Jul 28, 2017

Kemosloby said:
You don't believe the whole God thing do you?

Yes, I do.
It's the humans who claim to be God's spokespersons that I don't find very credible.
Tom

Yohanan ben Yaaqov · Jul 28, 2017

What? Genesis 9:6 doesn't have a penalty attached?

Kemosloby · Jul 28, 2017

columbus said:
Yes, I do.
It's the humans who claim to be God's spokespersons that I don't find very credible.
Tom

Like Moses?

Yohanan ben Yaaqov · Jul 28, 2017

Positive Mitz'vot have positive results and negative Mitz'vot have negative results. YOU WILL DO THIS and good results happen. YOU WILL NOT DO THAT and bad results happen. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand this.

Kemosloby · Jul 28, 2017

Yohanan ben Yaaqov said:
What? Genesis 9:6 doesn't have a penalty attached?

Not like a law, It's more of a directive. information on how things are. Noah was a preacher of righteousness, he may have preached about right and wrong and people understood that there were inherent penalties but there was no clearly written law explaining things like the law of Moses. Written in stone for all to see. Cain killed Abel and sort of knew it was wrong but there was no law against it and the penalty was just whatever God decided at the time. It was arbitrary justice. And then people die and all their sins are paid for, nothing held to their accounts for the second death.

What is the penalty for not shedding the blood of a murderer? and who is the penalty put on? Nobody, God just moves people to get angry and hunt murderers and kill them...no law required.

columbus · Jul 28, 2017

Kemosloby said:
Like Moses?

Somewhat. He was thousands of years ago, though. Exodus is what it is, and one of those things is "a product of it's time".
I can't help but notice though. Moses actually met God in person, sort of. But just like Adam and Abraham from Genesis, Moses saw no sign of Jesus or Trinitarianism. Quite the opposite, the very first Commandment in the Decalogue forbade the recognition or worship of anyone but the singular God of Abraham. No Jesus whatsoever. Nothing remotely like Him.
Tom

Kemosloby · Jul 28, 2017

columbus said:
Somewhat. He was thousands of years ago, though. Exodus is what it is, and one of those things is "a product of it's time".
I can't help but notice though. Moses actually met God in person, sort of. But just like Adam and Abraham from Genesis, Moses saw no sign of Jesus or Trinitarianism. Quite the opposite, the very first Commandment in the Decalogue forbade the recognition or worship of anyone but the singular God of Abraham. No Jesus whatsoever. Nothing remotely like Him.
Tom

Sure he did. Moses testafied of Jesus. When Moses took his staff and struck a rock, the rock split open and life giving water poured from the Rock. Jesus was the Rock. John 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

David talked about it too.

Psalm 22:14 Why have You Forsaken Me?
…They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion. I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And You lay me in the dust of death.…

Yohanan ben Yaaqov · Jul 28, 2017

Kemosloby said:
Not like a law, It's more of a directive. information on how things are. Noah was a preacher of righteousness, he may have preached about right and wrong and people understood that there were inherent penalties but there was no clearly written law explaining things like the law of Moses. Written in stone for all to see. Cain killed Abel and sort of knew it was wrong but there was no law against it and the penalty was just whatever God decided at the time. It was arbitrary justice. And then people die and all their sins are paid for, nothing held to their accounts for the second death.

What is the penalty for not shedding the blood of a murderer? and who is the penalty put on? Nobody, God just moves people to get angry and hunt murderers and kill them...no law required.

I think your mind is just clouded by your man made religion. After all chr-stianity is the "do nothing" religion. All you have to do is believe that the chr-stian mangod died for your sins, and nothing else. What does that even mean?

No one can die for anyone else's sins. In fact it's pretty difficult to die for your own sins. First there have to be at least two eyewitness to your crime, preferably three or more; then you have to be found guilty a majority decision in court. Even if you're found guilty, you have 40 days to come up with evidence to repeal the decision. So it's not easy to die for your own sins, let alone anyone else's.

Kemosloby · Jul 28, 2017

Yohanan ben Yaaqov said:
I think your mind is just clouded by your man made religion. After all chr-stianity is the "do nothing" religion. All you have to do is believe that the chr-stian mangod died for your sins, and nothing else. What does that even mean?

No one can die for anyone else's sins. In fact it's pretty difficult to die for your own sins. First there have to be at least two eyewitness to your crime, preferably three or more; then you have to be found guilty a majority decision in court. Even if you're found guilty, you have 40 days to come up with evidence to repeal the decision. So it's not easy to die for your own sins, let alone anyone else's.

Everybody dies for Adam's sin, Court sometimes decides your time to die is sooner than you had hoped.

Yohanan ben Yaaqov · Jul 28, 2017

Humanity was never immortal; humanity was never perfect; the earth was never perfect; only God and nothing else has ever been perfect. Adam was commanded by God to eat from every tree in the garden, and that included the tree of life. As long as he continued eating from the tree of life he would maintain his youth and vigor. The Scriptures do not tell us how long the Man inhabited the garden before the woman was extracted from him. The Scriptures do not tell us how long they both inhabited the garden.

They could have been there for thousands, or tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of years. They could have had hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of children before they disobeyed.

The fact that he lived for 930 and the next 15 or so generations after him also had insanely long lifespans, I would guess that he was eating from that tree for quite a long time before eating from the other tree.

Adam's punishment was being cut off from the tree of life. Adam was always a mortal human being, he just had access to the tree of prolonging life. Even with access to the tree, if he would have fallen off a cliff, or drowned, he would have died.

Desert Snake · Jul 31, 2017

Nakosis said:
I can kind of see why ex-Christians become Noahide after actually reading the Bible. From my own experience with Christianity the OT is pretty much ignored. Christian belief really lacks the foundation of the Torah. And then they find that foundation by asking questions and finding answers in the OT.

"Each of us found out about Noahides in our own way. Some are looking for a clarification or better understanding of a word, verse, or concept held within our "faith". As the majority of the Noahides we have spoken with are former Christians, we found we were simply looking for answers that directly or indirectly concerned our relationship with God. For each of us, there were always questions about Christianity that were never fully answered, dismissed as being disruptive, or outright ignored by church leaders and members. While others, who were outside the Christian faith system, appeare to have been looking for Spirituality or a means in which to find a connection to a higher plain of existence."

The Experience of Becoming A Noahide

Can an atheist be Noahide? At this point I don't see why not, but plan to look into it further.

Atheists can't be noahides. It's debatable if even practicing jews can be atheists.

Practicing jews would be going against torah, tanakh, in order to be atheists.

Nakosis · Jul 31, 2017

syncretic said:
Atheists can't be noahides. It's debateable if even practicing jews can be atheists.

Practicing jews would be going against torah, tanakh, in order to be atheists.

Which Noahide law are they breaking?

Rival · Dec 27, 2018

Nakosis said:
Which Noahide law are they breaking?

Within what Tumah calls Jewish Noahidism (and I just call Noahidism), one much acknowledge The Creator, G-d.

@Tumah.

Kelly of the Phoenix · Dec 27, 2018

Kemosloby said:
John and Paul are in the bible, people who like the bible would like John and Paul

How does this follow? Satan's in the bible too?

Kemosloby said:
You're not fit for Christianity if you believe Christ is in a grave.

Of course he's not in a grave. The body was either taken or resuscitated from a bad medical issue and he died somewhere else.

Tumah said:
They're listed from the perspective of the male, because that's just how it is. But the same way a man can't have relations with his mother, a mother can't have relations with her son. Its a question of recognized relationships, not individual prohibitions. The relationship between a mother and child is recognized, the relationship between a father and child is not. Hence its prohibited for a person to have relations with his mother

Which tells me they were still a little unclear about how the birds and bees work.

Kemosloby said:
Showing up at the illegitimate feast the Rabbis made up themselves would be the appropriate time to tell them they were not his sheep.

Why aren't they his sheep? Why are sheep not of his flock punished for not being part of the flock when it is the shepherd who is disowning them?

Rival said:
The rape of Dinah and her brothers' revenge. Rape is prohibited.

That's an iffy case, though, since no one cares what Dinah thought and the brothers are the ones who accused the prince of raping her with no evidence other than the guy was a foreigner and a prince no less, which would put her higher up on the social scale than they were. Can't have that.

Kemosloby said:
…For sin was in the world before the Law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses,even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed. He is a pattern of the One to come. But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many!…

Moses lived in Egypt, a place with laws. We can read them today. His exile from Egypt stemmed in part from being a murderer, which was against the law. He can't claim self-defense as it didn't involve him. The law stated he should've gone to the Grand Vizier and filed a grievance and let what due process might be squeezed out of ancient law. He chose to be a vigilante and Egypt wouldn't have it.

Rival said:
It's abundantly clear that G-d destroyed them because they were wicked and sinful.

It's abundantly clear people were labeled wicked and sinful. We vilify people we want to screw over all the time.

Kemosloby said:
And it had a fixed penalty, "In the day you eat of it you will surely die"

Which didn't happen.

Kemosloby said:
God says to follow Jesus to save your life

That's more iffy than saying if you don't build a boat you're gonna drown.

Kemosloby said:
If there is no death penalty attached it is not a law.

Are you the kind of guy who'd end up in a youtube video driving a car, getting pulled over, and claiming you're a sovereign citizen and you're not driving, you're "travelling"? Those idiots claim traffic laws aren't laws all the time. You don't get executed for running a red light (unless karma dictates you get smacked).

Kemosloby said:
Notice how after Moses everything seems to have a penalty?

Why is Cain exiled? If I were his lawyer, I'd argue that God had no reason to punish him for offering crops as a sacrifice as it has not been established that it's bad AND murder has not been established and one shouldn't be punished for what is not a crime.

Kemosloby said:
Like Moses?

Why should I listen to Moses? He was a religious terrorist who got everyone in his generation killed off bar a couple of people.

Kemosloby said:
Written in stone for all to see.

That's probably because they didn't live under Hammurabi or someone like that.

Kemosloby said:
It was arbitrary justice.

Thanks for admitting that. I hate it when people claim there is absolute morality when it's clearly just whatever we thought up at the time.

Kemosloby said:
When Moses took his staff and struck a rock, the rock split open and life giving water poured from the Rock. Jesus was the Rock. John 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

Moses couldn't go to the Promised Land after that scene. What he did was wrong.

Again, strictly because God decided it was, not that there was anything written in stone about it.

Kemosloby said:
…They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion. I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And You lay me in the dust of death.…

When did this happen to Jesus?

Kemosloby said:
Everybody dies for Adam's sin, Court sometimes decides your time to die is sooner than you had hoped.

Only guilty people are killed?

Noahide Ex- Christians

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn

Yohanan ben Yaaqov

Member

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member

Yohanan ben Yaaqov

Member

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member

Yohanan ben Yaaqov

Member

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member

Yohanan ben Yaaqov

Member

Desert Snake

Veteran Member

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist

Rival

se Dex me saut.

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member