How are these Great Beings explained?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Thus an answer is given, that with thought, covers all belief. In this way it is shown we look for the same goal and one may think further about the game plan.

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Vinayaka said:

We've been through this before, but in case you missed it, I'll reiterate.

I disagree.

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CG Didymus said:

God and his messengers haven't done a very good job at presenting the truth and leaving written instructions on how to live by that truth. After all this time, God finally tries having the messenger himself write everything down? Baha'i probably would include the Quran too, but how come that got messed up?

All these messengers were supposed to be bringing a progressive message that leads into the next one, but they didn't.... All the messages vary. And now, people are living and believing in these varied messages and believe them to be the ultimate truth. Now Baha'i come along and say all those practices are wrong... that the original message is gone and has been replaced by false notions?

The Baha'i Faith is fine except that it tries to make all religions related and progressive and from the same source. You talk about peace and love and justice, but to use Moses again, God told him and his followers to kill people... even their own people. God told one of the prophets in the Bible to kill hundreds of prophets from another religion. Was that religion false? Apparently. So there is such a thing as a false religion and religions that follow false concepts of God.

Some ancient beliefs had human sacrifices to their gods. All of them probably had wars with their neighboring tribes and nations and thought that their God was on their side and against the other people and tribes. So your religion is fine, but religious history is not so fine and not so unified.

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CG Didymus said:

The first point was that stoning didn't eliminate the behavior. So killing people won't work. But therapy? What do you tell people that are breaking the sexual laws of a religion? They are deviants? They have to pray more and ask God to change them?

I think sexual laws will always have problems. How do you tell people not to do it? And some people will do it in secret anyway. People with "gay" tendencies will go back in the closet? But I doubt if just because it's against a religious law, it will go away.

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CG Didymus said:

That's is great that you can work together, but when it comes down to it, everybody thinks their religion is more right than the other people's. And, it seems like that goes for Baha'is too... that no matter what the other religions do or say, they don't have the truth from God for today and can't bring the things needed to lead all people into a world at peace.

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Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

That is a very good question It is also quite confronting when the answer is given by Baha'u'llah, as follows;

Baha'u'llah has answered your observation like this;

"Consider the past. How many, both high and low, have, at all times, yearningly awaited the advent of the Manifestations of God in the sanctified persons of His chosen Ones. How often have they expected His coming, how frequently have they prayed that the breeze of Divine mercy might blow, and the promised Beauty step forth from behind the veil of concealment, and be made manifest to all the world. And whensoever the portals of grace did open, and the clouds of divine bounty did rain upon mankind, and the light of the Unseen did shine above the horizon of celestial might, they all denied Him, and turned away from His face—the face of God Himself…."

Then Baha'u'llah asks us to consider why they do offer rejection;

"......Reflect, what could have been the motive for such deeds? What could have prompted such behavior towards the Revealers of the beauty of the All-Glorious? Whatever in days gone by hath been the cause of the denial and opposition of those people hath now led to the perversity of the people of this age. To maintain that the testimony of Providence was incomplete, that it hath therefore been the cause of the denial of the people, is but open blasphemy......."

Then why there is no legitimate reason;

"...How far from the grace of the All-Bountiful and from His loving providence and tender mercies it is to single out a soul from amongst all men for the guidance of His creatures, and, on one hand, to withhold from Him the full measure of His divine testimony, and, on the other, inflict severe retribution on His people for having turned away from His chosen One! Nay, the manifold bounties of the Lord of all beings have, at all times, through the Manifestations of His Divine Essence, encompassed the earth and all that dwell therein. Not for a moment hath His grace been withheld, nor have the showers of His loving-kindness ceased to rain upon mankind. Consequently, such behavior can be attributed to naught save the petty-mindedness of such souls as tread the valley of arrogance and pride, are lost in the wilds of remoteness, walk in the ways of their idle fancy, and follow the dictates of the leaders of their faith. Their chief concern is mere opposition; their sole desire is to ignore the truth. Unto every discerning observer it is evident and manifest that had these people in the days of each of the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth sanctified their eyes, their ears, and their hearts from whatever they had seen, heard, and felt, they surely would not have been deprived of beholding the beauty of God, nor strayed far from the habitations of glory. But having weighed the testimony of God by the standard of their own knowledge, gleaned from the teachings of the leaders of their faith, and found it at variance with their limited understanding, they arose to perpetrate such unseemly acts…." Remainder of Passage - Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 17-27

Yes it is a challenge Baha'u'llah has offered Humanity.

Regards Tony

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Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I find it very wonderful that you have already envisaged what must happen to obtain a lasting peace.

What you have suggested his has been foretold as a necessity that Humanity will have to acheive. It is also said the Peace and Security of Mankind is unattainable unless and until its Unity is firmly established. That is what the nations need to envoke, the elimination of prejudices.

As to the way Peace amongst Nations must be found, this passage from Baha'u'llah

"..The Great Being, wishing to reveal the prerequisites of the peace and tranquillity of the world and the advancement of its peoples, hath written: The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation. We fain would hope that the kings and rulers of the earth, the mirrors of the gracious and almighty name of God, may attain unto this station, and shield mankind from the onslaught of tyranny. …The day is approaching when all the peoples of the world will have adopted one universal language and one common script. When this is achieved, to whatsoever city a man may journey, it shall be as if he were entering his own home. These things are obligatory and absolutely essential. It is incumbent upon every man of insight and understanding to strive to translate that which hath been written into reality and action…. That one indeed is a man who, today, dedicateth himself to the service of the entire human race. The Great Being saith: Blessed and happy is he that ariseth to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth. In another passage He hath proclaimed: It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens."

Regards Tony

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CG Didymus said:

A long ways back a list was given on how many people have claimed to be "The One"... "The Messiah". There's is someone right now calling himself "Maitreya" and I'm sure there are others calling themselves the return of Jesus, Krishna or one of the others. So there are fake messiahs that should be rejected.

Even the coming of Jesus is filled with ambiguous prophecies and some prophecies given sound like out right fabrications... including the "Virgin" birth. When it comes to Baha'u'llah, he doesn't come close to fulfilling the prophecies Christians are expecting for the return of Jesus. The explanations work for you, but not for those that remain in Christianity. They then put Baha'u'llah in the long list of false Messiahs.

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Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

The one thought here is that it is more like a sizeable jigsaw puzzle. If the One God is the Creator, as Baha'u'llah has revealed, then the puzzle has been put together, it has no missing pieces and can now be seen by all.

Regards Tony

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InvestigateTruth said:

As for Bahai's, they are to socialize with the followers of all Religions. I quote Bahaullah:

"O people! Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship."

And again in another Tablet Bahaullah wrote:

"Consort with all men, O people of Bahá, in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If any one should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding…."


So, Bahai must and are supposed to be able to socialize with followers of Religions.

However, there are many non-Bahais, who are in conflict with the followers of other sects and religions, and for centuries are killing each other.
Others may not be explicitly engaged in killing of other religions, but treat other religions as strangers, or unequally, due to the hidden fanaticism in their heart. They have caused religion to be the cause of war and disunity, and injustice.
For them, Unity is the solution Bahaullah ordians. Thus, Bahaullah who identified that one major cause of conflict has been religious fanatiism, has wished, that diversity of religion be ceased. In the site of Bahaullah, Truth is One. Diversity of religion does not work, because they have not been able to see all people with the eye of unity.

Farther Abdulbaha explained:

"His Holiness Bahá’u’lláh has announced that the foundation of all the religions of God is one; that oneness is truth and truth is oneness which does not admit of plurality. This teaching is new and specialized to this Manifestation.
He sets forth a new principle for this day in the announcement that religion must be the cause of unity, harmony and agreement among mankind. If it be the cause of discord and hostility, if it leads to separation and creates conflict, the absence of religion would be preferable in the world."

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Vinayaka said:

So if a person is non-religious, or doesn't claim a religion, they're out? The no-religion crowd, or 'none' is the fastest growing 'religious' group on the planet. I realise that in Baha'u'llah's day there was no such thing, or he hadn't heard of it, but how can today's Baha'i's adapt to this fact, when they're limited to what the prophet said? How have you adapted, IT?

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arthra said:

CG I have sense you're not familiar with how we operate today... We're not talking about stoning or killing people... We explain up front what Baha'i principles are involved if they choose not to adhere to them that their business... If they're Baha'is and have problems we can refer them to therapists or counselors... Each case is likely unique and in our consultations we keep it confidential.

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arthra said:

What I've found CG is that the more we work together the more likely we can have world peace and accept one another.

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Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Yes history has shown the majority reject without good reason, that it does not fit ones own expectations.

Regards Tony

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Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Baha'u'llahs writings displayed a modern understanding prior to what was even to be considered as modern. His laws covering many of the Goals Humanity now strives for.

That humanity is to still yet to grasp why God makes these Laws is not unusual, the past has recorded the results of our neglect of those laws.

In some things time is needed before the wisdom unfolds. There is enough evidence of Truth that unfolds immediatly from Gods Word, that we can have strong confidence that the wisdom of the remainder, we are yet to understand, will be better understood as man gains the required knowledge.

Be well be happy and may Love Oeace and Justice be for all.

Regards Tony

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Vinayaka said:

Sorry. but that just doesn't wok, or make sense. Lots of humanity, including myself, have accepted that homosexuality is a natural expression for some people. Yes, there are things that all of humanity is helbde back on, but this isn't one of them. Only some of humanity is held back. Another example here is vegetarianism. I've been a vegetarian for over 40 years now. Once I found out about the ethics of it, I just became one. End of story. Now is the time.

Perhaps I should have worded my question, 'Why are some people held back, resistant to change, while others aren't?' That's obviously the case. You could also say 'some groups of people' or 'some faiths'. But really it is an individual thing. 'Maybe some day' doesn't work for me. If you asked a girl to marry you, the last thing you want to hear is 'Maybe some day'.

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oldbadger said:

Social changeable laws?
Any law can be repealed. Any law can be changed.
I told you that Jesus, his apostles and prophets changed, repealed and made masses of laws. There was no previous mention to me of siocial changeable, whatever you mrean by that.

Anyway, here are some laws that Christianity repealed. There are over 100 repeals but I just picked the first five that I saw:
Ex. 30:13 Lev. 27:32 Ex. 25:8 Ex. 30:7 Lev. 19:9

Here are some New Covenant Laws, there are hundreds, but I just picked the first five that I saw:
Colossians 3:22 2 Timothy 2:24 Luke 3:14 Romans 13:1 Galatians 5:26

In fact there are 1050 guidances, rules and laws for Christians, and all sacrificial laws, many food laws, about 25 poor-laws werre scrapped from the 613 laws of Moses.

If you don't like 'em, come back for more, and I'll give you the first five I see. Or better still, just read the New Testament!

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CG Didymus said:

So... should all those religions stop believing their religions according to their traditional beliefs... and accept the Baha'i interpretation? Which, if the Baha'i Faith is correct, is the real interpretation of that religion.

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CG Didymus said:

Even if they say they accept you as you are, in their minds, they believe you have misinterpreted the things from your religion and are following a wrong path.

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CG Didymus said:

I've spoken with Jews about why they don't accept Jesus as their Messiah. I think, for them, they have very good reasons to doubt that Jesus was the Messiah. I investigated that, and sorry, but I have to put you on the spot, have you independently investigated why Jews reject Jesus?

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CG Didymus said:

But teaching the Baha'i interpretations of the other religions does create conflicts. They say the Baha'is are wrong, and then what? What does the Baha'i say to bring peace and understanding to the diverse beliefs of the different religions?

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CG Didymus said:

I became a vegetarian in 1969. In the 70's Baha'is told me that in the future people will be vegetarians. So from 1860 to 1970 sounds like the future. So how much responsibility are on the Baha'is to lead the way?

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CG Didymus said:

Part of my question was that nations can't keep the peace within their own countries. But who are they fighting? Its own citizens. On the world scale, who is the enemy? For the US one of its biggest threats is from groups of people, not nations. So what does Baha'u'llah have to say about that?

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