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"Donald Trump Says Transgender People Won’t Be Allowed To Serve In Military"

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
Exactly. They are there for one thing. Killing any person designated as an enemy of the Union.

Transgender or not, everyone is "Green" or "Tan".

All this SJW bull**** stays in civilian life. The military is in their right to bar anyone they deem unfit or incompatible.

That said, I would love to see a transgender battalion invade the Middle East, or better, invade North Korea with extreme prejudice.


You do realize there are many roles in the military that doesn't equate to killing. There are many logistical positions to fill too.

I get that some roles require stength, endurance and mental fortitude. Those that want these roles need to qualify through tests but they should be unbiased against race, gender and orientation.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
I don't think he's saying that at all. Rather that military life is not what most people assume it is, and that special exceptions can be deadly. I've no doubt that there are transpeople who have it together, and can handle the extreme stress. There are others who - like any other demographic - don't. That is something that needs to be taken into consideration as to how it's handled; the fact that special treatment and handling cannot be afforded the individuals at risk of the unit. In our society, honestly that's a bit of a PR nightmare.
I don't think anyone is asking for special treatment. I'm not. It's simply that being trans doesn't necessarily mean anything with regards to a job.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
...so many actual military just do not care. Of course I've never been in the military, but I have strong suspicions the bonds people form in the military run so deep that such things really aren't a concern for more,
You would be dangerously wrong. Look at what happened with Chelsea Manning.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
I don't think anyone is asking for special treatment. I'm not. It's simply that being trans doesn't necessarily mean anything with regards to a job.
Sometimes it does. Way back I gave insight into my job, where a person undergoing transition with hormonal regiments often breaks the cohesion that we have as a team. It's never large enough to truly affect our job (as there's always someone to cover,) but you can't change your body and expect there to be no repercussions both biologically and functionally.

That said, I've no doubt that the investigation will turn up no reasonable cause to bar transpeople from service come January 1st, and that this will blow over.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Sometimes it does. Way back I gave insight into my job, where a person undergoing transition with hormonal regiments often breaks the cohesion that we have as a team. It's never large enough to truly affect our job (as there's always someone to cover,) but you can't change your body and expect there to be no repercussions both biologically and functionally.

That said, I've no doubt that the investigation will turn up no reasonable cause to bar transpeople from service come January 1st, and that this will blow over.
Your anecdote doesn't mean anything to me since I don't know the person you're talking about, what their issue is and what is actually causing it. I'm on testosterone therapy and I'm fine. Same goes for most other transsexuals I know of.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
She didn't come out until after she leaked information, and came out sometime around during or after her trial. In the military, she was still Bradly Manning.
I'm aware. What I meant was during her boot camp - though I was also mixing up her crimes with those of Bo Berghdal. In boot camp, Chelsea was a constant fish swimming upstream. She was a problem for her entire unit, they suffered because of her, and she most certainly did not have their back.

Bo, as well, is a good example of how people who can't take it are a functional danger. The military greatly cares who is fighting by their side, but it's not about the person's sex; it's about their mindset. Bonds also mean little when you're in a situation like was posted from that soldier on Twitter, when the smallest thing becomes a mountain of frustration and rage. Suddenly ten years goes out the window, and something someone said to you at bootcamp is worth kicking their ***.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Your anecdote doesn't mean anything to me since I don't know the person you're talking about, what their issue is and what is actually causing it. I'm on testosterone therapy and I'm fine. Same goes for most other transsexuals I know of.
Just because you and yours are fine doesn't mean others are as well. Say my job was the military, combat unit, and my coworker had to duck out because her hormone changes are making her nauseous. Where I work right now, that's no big deal. When you're overseas in the desert and you're getting shot at? Totally different.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Just because you and yours are fine doesn't mean others are as well. Say my job was the military, combat unit, and my coworker had to duck out because her hormone changes are making her nauseous. Where I work right now, that's no big deal. When you're overseas in the desert and you're getting shot at? Totally different.
That's a fair point, but that can be handled like any other side effect to a medication.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
coworker had to duck out because her hormone changes are making her nauseous.
If her hormone regiment is making her nauseous, she would need to see her endocrinologist for a different prescription.
She was a problem for her entire unit, they suffered because of her, and she most certainly did not have their back.
If she was a problem for the group, that does not mean transgender people as a whole are.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
That's a fair point, but that can be handled like any other side effect to a medication.
Quite true, but I think that's testament that this entire issue can't be solved so quickly and easily as "It's 2017, let them in already!" Of which I'm not saying anyone on here has said that - I'm not pointing fingers - but it's a sentiment that I'm seeing on Facebook quite frequently. Military life is not the same as civilian life by any means, and they're not afforded a lot of the comforts that standard society has.

If she was a problem for the group, that does not mean transgender people as a whole are.
Granted. But how does a system like the military weed out the people who can hack it and the people who can't without raising accusations of persecution and discrimination?
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
They tried to use similar arguments for other groups, all with the idea that these outsiders are going to break group cohesion. And while Conservatives have long been the ones opposing an integrated military and insisting it will be bad for the military, so many actual military just do not care. Of course I've never been in the military, but I have strong suspicions the bonds people form in the military run so deep that such things really aren't a concern for more, as knowing they have your back as you have theirs takes top priority. And when push comes to shove, does anything else honestly even matter?

This is just a slippery slope argument... since "gays" were treated this way, then transgenders will be as well, so let's not do that. LGB are sexual preferences, it's simply not the same thing - I know everyone likes to glue them together, but who we screw is a very important feature for most humans... It's probably weird to think that someone is ogling you in the same-sex locker room, but we've moved passed it. "T" is not a sexual preference, it's an identity like, "I'm a Satanist." Now, put that in perspective for a minute - should the military cater to "Satanists" at all or just treat everyone the same and if you don't like it well tough titties? Should we spend money on "Satanists" because they need more black clothes, candles, and ritual items? Can they bring a few goats heads everywhere they go, even on deployment? I mean, that's the silly argument. It's not about _you_ and it shouldn't be... I don't feel slighted even in the tiniest amount because the military won't appreciate the aesthetic associated with my life. No one can make a single decent point about this to me, and when they do I'll probably reflect on it... But, I see no reason why we shouldn't just treat every single person as soldier, group them according to biological sex(for safety, as always), and move the hell on.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
From the linked site: Donald Trump Says Transgender People Won't Be Allowed To Serve In Military

"It’s not clear why Trump decided to announce such a significant policy change via Twitter or when it would take effect."
My guess is that he's trying to appeal to his 36% core supporters. Obviously not the brightest bunch of people:
The Uneducated, Middle age, Low income, Whites.


CVmXEljU8AIwHHE.jpg


.
What advanced degree do you have which led you to vote for Hillary?
I recommend that if one wants to be seen as intelligent & learned,
tis better to display it in one's posts, than to cite studies of groups.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
What advanced degree do you have which led you to vote for Hillary?
Such information ain't even for sale. You know my sex, religion, country of residence, and I think that's adequate. :)

I recommend that if one wants to be seen as intelligent & learned,
tis better to display it in one's posts, than to cite studies of groups.
Don't really care if people see me as intelligent & learned. If I appear that way, fine. If not, fine. :shrug:

.

.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
"I just think you should be careful overstating what a utopian America"

There is no such thing as a "utopia America", and why should I be careful saying transgender people deserve equality in America? Because bigots exist? Is that your argument? Sounds like a backwards point; I am not going to "be careful overstating" that all Americans deserve fair and equal treatment from our government and our laws.

Take a breath, mate. You seem to have run with a few assumptions on my intent. I'll try to clarify, and apologize if I was unclear.
By definition, there is no such thing as utopian America. It is merely an ideal (which the American Dream would seem to be, again, by it's very definition). It is impactful because it drives thinking and action in terms of steering the country towards this ideal.
My point is not that you should change your ideal for a second. My take, for what it's worth, are that all people are deserving of equal treatment, and a democratic society belittles itself when it treats citizens as less than equal. That's broad brush, obviously, but there it is. I find it disgraceful, for example, that my country (Australia) doesn't have marriage equality.

Basically, go your hardest. My point is that other people's conception of the American Dream will be different to yours, and will be steering their current actions. Think of a hundred individuals, each with a slightly different concept of the American Dream. All can be pulling for the same nebulous goal, but not pulling in the same direction.

"for it's various citizens"

I am not stating it for "various citizen", I am saying that is the American Spirit, and I don't care if there are people out there somewhere that may disagree with me. I don't validate my ethical beliefs in such a silly manner.

I already covered this. I'm not asking you to validate anything. I'm suggesting that others will be pulling in different directions, but have the same broad concept of 'moving towards the American Dream'. To move the country towards your vision, you'll need to convince some of them that it's the 'true' American Dream, basically.

"make any assumptions of commonality"

I did not make any such assumption. You seem to think the American Dream is solely defined by popular view. I disagree with that notion, and claim no knowledge of how supportive the masses are of transgender equality. I have not looked at those numbers and I do not know what they are.

I think breaking up my post piece-meal is a good way to lose the forest for the trees, actually. But anyway, I am not asking you...at all...to change your personal American Dream. But if you are talking about how the American Dream drives action across the American society, then it's the individual members of that society who drive meaningful impact. It is nothing to do with right/wrong, or morality.

I pull my conclusion from actually being an American, from studying American culture, and studying American history. For the express purpose of answering this question, it is a question that has been on my mind since I was young. Now maybe someday I will decide to write something on it, but it is not going to be here is the limits of a forum debate. Now you may disagree with my point of view all you like, and that that fine, I claim nothing factual about this perception, as it cannot be established factually. However, I think the notion that the American Spirit is only dictated by "commonality" is naive.

I don't care if you see it as naive, since it's not the point I am making.
Consider it this way...you have said that the American Dream is more around trying to be better than what you currently are. I completely concur. Lots of people would. That is not unique to America, but there are obviously unique elements to it.
Take a hundred people and ask them what that actually means, and you'll start getting answers roughly along the lines of what @Father Heathen posted. America stands for rights, liberty, equality, and justice. No problem there either. Australia, for example, would believe that they stand for giving people a 'fair go' and for mateship, amongst other things. Obviously there won't be complete agreement, but I think it's reasonable to expect a level of commonality.

Try to apply those statements to a particular situation, though, and it gets very messy. Take 2 of those people who think America stands for rights and equality, and ask them their opinion on abortion...
My point wasn't that your Dream is invalid, or that the most valid Dream is that shared by the most people. It's simply that the majority can drive action or inaction more easily. If anything, it's a pragmatic/jaded view of the world. Sadly not a naive one.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
It's another 'showboat' distraction. Just like "America Month" or whatever the heck he calls it. The con man conned the vulnerable. And continues to do so. But that portion of the population is gaining lightbulbs above their heads on a daily basis.

And no, Obama is not a draft dodger. But all the leaders of the NRA are.

People will learn soon enough what the GOP establishment is all about. Can people please stop complaining about how republican elected officials don't listen to their base? It's getting annoying at this point. Everyone said the same thing for the past decade or 2. Wake up.
 

Jeremiahcp

Well-Known Jerk
No, football players are a product of Darwinism - big beefy black dudes who are tall and weigh 200-300 pounds of muscle are genetically superior at playing the sport if skill is equal. The average white woman would get destroyed by one of these perfectly grown warriors - blood, guts, and paralysis are bad for ratings... especially if it was a woman...

It's not about being a bigot, biased, or anything else... It's about avoiding putting murder on Monday Night Football...

Ya, that is not at all what I meant. Try actually reading the article linked in my post.
 

Jeremiahcp

Well-Known Jerk
Take a breath, mate. You seem to have run with a few assumptions on my intent. I'll try to clarify, and apologize if I was unclear.
By definition, there is no such thing as utopian America. It is merely an ideal (which the American Dream would seem to be, again, by it's very definition). It is impactful because it drives thinking and action in terms of steering the country towards this ideal.
My point is not that you should change your ideal for a second. My take, for what it's worth, are that all people are deserving of equal treatment, and a democratic society belittles itself when it treats citizens as less than equal. That's broad brush, obviously, but there it is. I find it disgraceful, for example, that my country (Australia) doesn't have marriage equality.

Basically, go your hardest. My point is that other people's conception of the American Dream will be different to yours, and will be steering their current actions. Think of a hundred individuals, each with a slightly different concept of the American Dream. All can be pulling for the same nebulous goal, but not pulling in the same direction.



I already covered this. I'm not asking you to validate anything. I'm suggesting that others will be pulling in different directions, but have the same broad concept of 'moving towards the American Dream'. To move the country towards your vision, you'll need to convince some of them that it's the 'true' American Dream, basically.



I think breaking up my post piece-meal is a good way to lose the forest for the trees, actually. But anyway, I am not asking you...at all...to change your personal American Dream. But if you are talking about how the American Dream drives action across the American society, then it's the individual members of that society who drive meaningful impact. It is nothing to do with right/wrong, or morality.



I don't care if you see it as naive, since it's not the point I am making.
Consider it this way...you have said that the American Dream is more around trying to be better than what you currently are. I completely concur. Lots of people would. That is not unique to America, but there are obviously unique elements to it.
Take a hundred people and ask them what that actually means, and you'll start getting answers roughly along the lines of what @Father Heathen posted. America stands for rights, liberty, equality, and justice. No problem there either. Australia, for example, would believe that they stand for giving people a 'fair go' and for mateship, amongst other things. Obviously there won't be complete agreement, but I think it's reasonable to expect a level of commonality.

Try to apply those statements to a particular situation, though, and it gets very messy. Take 2 of those people who think America stands for rights and equality, and ask them their opinion on abortion...
My point wasn't that your Dream is invalid, or that the most valid Dream is that shared by the most people. It's simply that the majority can drive action or inaction more easily. If anything, it's a pragmatic/jaded view of the world. Sadly not a naive one.

I don't think you understand me, as I am not interested in having the current flavor of prejudice and bigotry define the American Dream for me, nor am I interested in you, or someone else, trying to define it for me. I am an American, and this is the essence of what it means to be an American, and I am not going to let anyone else tell me what that is.

I know the basics of how public opinion works, I don't need you to explain it me. I get that some of you like to cling to this notion of relativism, but I don't. I understand there is a threshold to which it operates, and I left that type of thinking in the past a long time ago; understanding that is only a fraction of the puzzle.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't think you understand me, as I am not interested in having the current flavor of prejudice and bigotry define the American Dream for me, nor am I interested in you, or someone else, trying to define it for me. I am an American, and this is the essence of what it means to be an American, and I am not going to let anyone else tell me what that is.

I know the basics of how public opinion works, I don't need you to explain it me. I get that some of you like to cling to this notion of relativism, but I don't. I understand there is a threshold to which it operates, and I left that type of thinking in the past a long time ago; understanding that is only a fraction of the puzzle.

My points don't relate...AT ALL...to the validity of your personal philosophy. My points relate to how SOCIETY...not just you...makes decisions and takes actions.

It has stuff all to do with relativism, because it has stuff all to do with morality.

Your thoughts regarding transgenderism is (obviously) related to your morality. Or objective morality if you roll that way. That still has nothing to do with my point.

Anyways...we seem to be talking at cross purposes. I have no problem (and would agree) that transgender people need to have the same rights as others.
 
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