Deidre's Journey

Sclavus said:

It depends on what you mean by "moderate Christian." Could you elaborate?

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Um...someone who believes some of the Bible, not all of it. Or someone who has his own way of interpreting Christianity and the NT, in particular. I'm not saying that's you, but that's what a moderate Christian seems like to me. I was never a fundamentalist when I was a Christian so I speak from a little experience. lol

When Paul says God is strong in his weakness, I believe Paul is recognizing that aspect of God that provides for us when we "can't even," as the kids say these days. You and I see correctly God doesn't need us to build Him up. He doesn't need me to worship Him for His benefit. I worship Him for my own gain, to remember who He is to me.

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I like that.

I'm not afraid God is going to smite me if I don't tell Him how great He is. He can see my heart, so it's no use praising Him out of fear. He'd see the insincerity in that. I don't make a ritual of it, either. In my view, yes, I couldn't exist without God, and yes, I'd go to Hell if it weren't for Christ. It's true I have life in every regard because of God.

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Suppose people come to know who Christ is, but they don't believe? Just a question, not a debate lol...what do you think may happen to their soul? This is just your opinion. I ask because I never believed that anyone would really go to hell, if they weren't Christian.

What's not true is the idea I'm entirely powerless. It's an insult to God and me to say God created me to be a puppet that can't do anything without God's almighty hand up my butt, making my mouth move and my body work. I can do a lot, but I'm still a finite being, and there's things only God can do, so where my ability ends (where I am weak), I call upon God to work (because He's strong). I believe that's what Paul was saying: God is stronger than I am.

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I agree with that ''interpretation'' of it.

My dad is a Christian, but he was also abusive. I've had similar experiences, where Dad would yell at me, berate me, sometimes hit me, and then come back and tell me he loves me. God does tell me I should forgive my dad, but what good is it to do something just because you're supposed to?

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Some things we should do, and then later, we learn why.

I've learned to be more sincere, and it's helped to repair some of the damage. If I haven't forgiven someone, I don't pretend to have done so.

"Well it's wrong not to forgive," some Christians say.

I don't disagree, and I am in the wrong for not having forgiven. I'm an imperfect human, but I'd rather go on being unforgiving until I'm ready to forgive than pretend to let it go and not reach legitimate forgiveness. It's good to examine those memories and learn what you can, because when you do forgive, it makes it emotionally easier, and there's a greater sense of fulfillment in it.

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Forgiveness does take time, and it might take you 1000 times over to say those words in your mind ''I forgive you.'' It's a process, I think. And forgiveness doesn't mean you have to have a relationship with the person, it just means that you accept that someone failed you, and a reminder...that we are capable of failing others, too.

Deidre said:

Um...someone who believes some of the Bible, not all of it. Or someone who has his own way of interpreting Christianity and the NT, in particular. I'm not saying that's you, but that's what a moderate Christian seems like to me. I was never a fundamentalist when I was a Christian so I speak from a little experience. lol

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I believe all of the Bible, but I do interpret it differently from a lot of Christians. I should clarify and say I believe the parts of the Bible I understand. There's parts of it I don't get, and parts I don't believe apply to Christians today (both in the Old and New Testaments), and I don't think the original text is always translated well into English.

I never bought into fundamentalism, and since I've joined this forum, I've come to realize how far apart I've grown from evangelicalism. To those who would say Christianity jives with a political party (especially those represented by an elephant or donkey), I'd vehemently disagree, though I grew up in a "Christian is Republican" church.

Suppose people come to know who Christ is, but they don't believe? Just a question, not a debate lol...what do you think may happen to their soul? This is just your opinion. I ask because I never believed that anyone would really go to hell, if they weren't Christian.

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Paul talks about what happens to those who haven't heard about Christ, and says they'll be judged on their conscience. As for those who know who Christ is but don't believe, I really don't know. I can assume some people will go to Hell, but it's not really my place to say who. It'd be like me judging Olympic gymnastics; I could look at a gymnast and say they're likely to win, but since I know fork-all about gymnastics, my opinion doesn't count.

I believe Hell is real, and I believe people are condemned to it, but what the nature of Hell is or who gets put there, I don't know. I'm assured I won't be there, though I sometimes wonder. That keeps me busy enough to keep me from thinking, "Oh yeah, that dude's definitely forked."

Some things we should do, and then later, we learn why.

Forgiveness does take time, and it might take you 1000 times over to say those words in your mind ''I forgive you.'' It's a process, I think. And forgiveness doesn't mean you have to have a relationship with the person, it just means that you accept that someone failed you, and a reminder...that we are capable of failing others, too.

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Good insights. I struggle to do what I don't understand first, but you're right: some things we should do, even if we don't know why. Forgiveness is a process, and it takes more than a one-time moment to achieve it. We have to work to forgive.

And yes, forgiving someone doesn't mean we have to end up liking or spending time with a person. It just means we don't hold whatever against them. Sometimes it's best to keep our distance.

I will say this about you, @Sclavus - you are a good ''witness'' for your faith. Have you ever read any books by CS Lewis? He was an atheist, and converted to Christianity. Your writing style, your insight on faith reminds me of him.

That's a good thing. lol

Deidre said:

I will say this about you, @Sclavus - you are a good ''witness'' for your faith. Have you ever read any books by CS Lewis? He was an atheist, and converted to Christianity. Your writing style, your insight on faith reminds me of him.

That's a good thing. lol

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I admire Lewis, especially for his honesty in "A Grief Observed." Thank you for the compliment.

Sclavus said:

I admire Lewis, especially for his honesty in "A Grief Observed." Thank you for the compliment.

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YW

''Mere Christianity'' is my favorite book of his. It makes me wonder, are we all just in a constant state of flux when it comes to faith? Some are converting, some are deconverting lol

I'm glad I'm keeping this journal, it's helping me to think out loud. I have a good friend who asked me what I wanted the outcome to be (she is a Christian) and I said ''I want my heart to match my mind,'' and she said ''Maybe your mind needs to match your heart.''

In the end, we're all human and we all wonder what's out there, and what might be. And where we fit into it all. And if a god exists, do I matter to him? Does he care? I've been taught to believe that God cares, and is a personal god. But, other than my emotions...ranging from reverential fear to blissful comfort...I have no evidence to support that. That's my dilemma.

The Bible isn't evidence, it's someone else's story. And my emotions ...those feel good emotions that come after prayer, etc...aren't evidence, either.

Deidre said:

YW

''Mere Christianity'' is my favorite book of his. It makes me wonder, are we all just in a constant state of flux when it comes to faith? Some are converting, some are deconverting lol

I'm glad I'm keeping this journal, it's helping me to think out loud. I have a good friend who asked me what I wanted the outcome to be (she is a Christian) and I said ''I want my heart to match my mind,'' and she said ''Maybe your mind needs to match your heart.''

In the end, we're all human and we all wonder what's out there, and what might be. And where we fit into it all. And if a god exists, do I matter to him? Does he care? I've been taught to believe that God cares, and is a personal god. But, other than my emotions...ranging from reverential fear to blissful comfort...I have no evidence to support that. That's my dilemma.

The Bible isn't evidence, it's someone else's story.

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I know that dilemma well. Our faith is in flux, I believe. There's that damn war between heart and mind, and we get caught in the middle. The stories of others only help so much. For my part, I don't trust my heart well, because I've reached out my hand on the say-so of my heart and bled for doing so.

My brain isn't much better. It often feels like an over-caffeinated hamster laying down all kinds of hell at his wheel with all speed. It's chaos trying to sort it out. Some days I feel like tossing it all and doing as I please. I'm just so tired of the old ghosts of shame that creep up through the floorboards to remind me of everything.

Religion is largely a poison, but I believe honesty in our faith is a haven, where it's easier to see things clearly. But that sanctum is hard to find and hard to stay in, what with that war between heart and mind raging to distract us. Sometimes I scream for my heart and brain to shut up so I can find that haven.

Sclavus said:

I know that dilemma well. Our faith is in flux, I believe. There's that damn war between heart and mind, and we get caught in the middle. The stories of others only help so much. For my part, I don't trust my heart well, because I've reached out my hand on the say-so of my heart and bled for doing so.

My brain isn't much better. It often feels like an over-caffeinated hamster laying down all kinds of hell at his wheel with all speed. It's chaos trying to sort it out. Some days I feel like tossing it all and doing as I please. I'm just so tired of the old ghosts of shame that creep up through the floorboards to remind me of everything.

Religion is largely a poison, but I believe honesty in our faith is a haven, where it's easier to see things clearly. But that sanctum is hard to find and hard to stay in, what with that war between heart and mind raging to distract us. Sometimes I scream for my heart and brain to shut up so I can find that haven.

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Well, despite it all...Jesus told his followers to take up their crosses and follow him. Hand him the hamster wheel?

What do you get out of faith that you don't think you could have if you abandoned it?

Deidre said:

Well, despite it all...Jesus told his followers to take up their crosses and follow him. Hand him the hamster wheel?

What do you get out of faith that you don't think you could have if you abandoned it?

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If Jesus wants to drive my hamster, He can have it, but the hamster's a bitey little blighter.

C.S. Lewis said, "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word 'darkness' on the walls of his cell.” I can't abandon my faith, which is sometimes to my chagrin. It's not that I gain anything in particular by my belief, but it's more that I recognize grass is green, so I can't call it red. Faith, for me, is a reality, however lamentable it may seem at times. Sometimes I find green grass comforting, and other times it's bothersome, but I can't deny it what it is.

Sclavus said:

though I grew up in a "Christian is Republican" church.

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Just to add to the record but when I became an atheist it made me increasingly conservative opposed to when I was a Christian. I was an avid Republican and still am as a result of secularism and my once held atheism.

It is just ironic you mention this.

@Deidre You are very introspective about things and I find this fascinating. You seem to view religion as a source of emotional fortitude and comfort. I see it as quite the opposite in how it works at least. I think religion or at least apathy gives us more comfort by being honest and realizing how we feel at the present moment. People change and certain things are always in flux. Religion seems to be like this for you.

I realized that I best not care about religion and whether there is a god and to just contemplate both sides and lives my life how I want and in a way that accommodates my needs. I worship a god as if there is one and I know that deep down I may never be able to prove this and I do not care anymore. It does not affect my life whether one exists or does not. I find it trivial.

I have searched and rationalized what sort of god or gods can or cannot exist and I have remained with that viewpoint as of now. I have essentially reverted back to how I felt originally but with greater sincerity and honesty

Sha'irullah said:

Just to add to the record but when I became an atheist it made me increasingly conservative opposed to when I was a Christian. I was an avid Republican and still am as a result of secularism and my once held atheism.

It is just ironic you mention this.

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Interesting. I am conservative libertarian(-ish), a holdover from my days as an agnostic.

Sclavus said:

Interesting. I am conservative libertarian(-ish), a holdover from my days as an agnostic.

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I too am a Libertarian but I usually identify as a conservative since it leaves a bad taste in people's mouths, especially since I live in California which is a liberal heaven. I am undoubtedly a Libertarian but I just don't like to identify as one all the time since it does not express my nationalist views at times.

Deidre said:

(((Treks))) Hi! I've looked into Buddhism mainly and have gleaned a lot from the principles. I think what is a hard habit to shake is looking towards a belief system to control my life like Christianity did. Learning that I'm in control of my destiny feels ...unsettling, but also really exciting all at the same time. Does that make sense?

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Are you in control of your destiny, though? God, or no God.

Hey Deidre. I fogot I commented on your journal. Its grown since. Will be reading it off and on.

Today, I feel...hmmm. Idk. Conflicted. But not in the same ways I felt five years ago when I left Christianity the first time. I'm also missing my grandmother, today.

Sending hugs to all who are reading this

Sha'irullah said:

@Deidre You are very introspective about things and I find this fascinating. You seem to view religion as a source of emotional fortitude and comfort. I see it as quite the opposite in how it works at least. I think religion or at least apathy gives us more comfort by being honest and realizing how we feel at the present moment. People change and certain things are always in flux. Religion seems to be like this for you.

I realized that I best not care about religion and whether there is a god and to just contemplate both sides and lives my life how I want and in a way that accommodates my needs. I worship a god as if there is one and I know that deep down I may never be able to prove this and I do not care anymore. It does not affect my life whether one exists or does not. I find it trivial.

I have searched and rationalized what sort of god or gods can or cannot exist and I have remained with that viewpoint as of now. I have essentially reverted back to how I felt originally but with greater sincerity and honesty

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Hi Sha ...well, what I'm realizing now is that I've leaned on my faith beliefs as to escape having to deal with some tough times or my childhood. Like a security blanket, faith served as a shield from the world, for me. I would tell myself that "I'm strong in Christ," and it all made sense.

This is why he is known as "The Great Comforter," or the Savior of the world. Being saved isn't only about salvation but it's also about saving us from ourselves. At least that's what it always felt like.

I think your journey is fascinating too...we are just so fascinating ...all of us!! Lol

Sclavus said:

If Jesus wants to drive my hamster, He can have it, but the hamster's a bitey little blighter.

C.S. Lewis said, "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word 'darkness' on the walls of his cell.” I can't abandon my faith, which is sometimes to my chagrin. It's not that I gain anything in particular by my belief, but it's more that I recognize grass is green, so I can't call it red. Faith, for me, is a reality, however lamentable it may seem at times. Sometimes I find green grass comforting, and other times it's bothersome, but I can't deny it what it is.

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Hmmm.

So have you come to see your beliefs as objective truth?

Deidre said:

Hmmm.

So have you come to see your beliefs as objective truth?

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Yes and no. I believe what I believe is true, but I also admit I could be wrong. On some points (i.e., the existence of God, the identity of Christ, etc.) I think it's highly unlikely I'm wrong, but on other points (i.e., evolution, what it means to be a Christian, etc.) it's more likely.

We see reality in front of us and take leaps of faith. We have to make certain assumptions, or we would never get out of bed. We operate on those assumptions until something comes along to challenge them. My faith is a part of my reality. Until something comes along to cause me to question my faith, I operate based on it.

I doubted God before because I had reason to do so. I discovered the God I believed in--the one so often taught to children in Sunday school--doesn't exist. I came out of that season in my life having lost faith in something, but gained faith in something else. Faith is malleable, and our beliefs should change over time. Sometimes that means wondering if God exists at all.

If incontrovertible evidence of God's absence came along, I'd examine it and accept it. Again, I think that's very unlikely, but I'm open to the possibility it could happen.

Your opinions have been very helpful to me, @Sclavus - when I share my inner struggle with other Christians, the tendency to quote Scripture, ad nauseam, seems to take over and I tune out. As if I don't know Scripture. Lol blah blah blah...

I've always thought that faith should be an experience and not just something we learn or "follow" out of obedience, you know?

Maybe you are a messenger of some type. Hmmmm......

I found some old poems today, in a file I forgot about, actually. They were written during a time when I identified as an atheist. These poems were written about three years ago, and it's so strange reading them, now. I must have been angry with Christianity, because the poems have an edge to them. If you get too close to them, they bite you.

I don't feel that way, now, though. I'm not angry over religion. I'd say that sitting on a fence can be worse than being angry or blissful, when choosing a 'side.' I sometimes envy the militant atheist, or the blind faithful who wake up every day...knowing. Just knowing. Or at least they think feel confident that they know.

Being at a crossroads reminds me vaguely of Pascal's Wager, which wasn't designed to persuade atheists to convert...rather, it was intended for lukewarm Christians to get off their fences. (I'm not lukewarm lol I'm just saying though) ^_^