How are these Great Beings explained?

Vinayaka said:

. But then we're talking about stuff that came from a time when slaves weren't considered people at all, so it's not surprising.

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It is easy when living in the day of enlightenment to think that enlightenment was of ones own making.

Baha'u'llah's Law is for the abolishment of slavery, He wrote to the Queen of England praising Her for making it British Law.

In a time when the Caste System was the way of life in India, Baha'u'llah made Law equality of all men and women, that no person should exault themselves above another. This done at a time when women were Chattle in Persia and all around the world, and treated as such.

Baha'u'llah set the standard all now hold as a goal. One needs Justice of search and consideration in these matters as per the quote supplied.

God bless and regards Tony

Vinayaka said:

Referring a homosexual for therapy contradicts modern understanding in the field.

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Baha'u'llahs writings displayed a modern understanding prior to what was even to be considered as modern. His laws covering many of the Goals Humanity now strives for.

That humanity is to still yet to grasp why God makes these Laws is not unusual, the past has recorded the results of our neglect of those laws.

In some things time is needed before the wisdom unfolds. There is enough evidence of Truth that unfolds immediatly from Gods Word, that we can have strong confidence that the wisdom of the remainder, we are yet to understand, will be better understood as man gains the required knowledge.

Be well be happy and may Love Oeace and Justice be for all.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

The same advice from Baha'u'llah is applicable.

Look for the good in all things, we have said that many times.

Regards Tony

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Baha'u'llah specifically said 'of a religion' and he also mentioned that only 9 religions were valid. So Baha'i's are free to reinterpret his words? (Just looking to clear my understanding, as I thought his words were infallible, and not changeable)

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

It is easy when living in the day of enlightenment to think that enlightenment was of ones own making.

Baha'u'llah's Law is for the abolishment of slavery, He wrote to the Queen of England praising Her for making it British Law.

In a time when the Caste System was the way of life in India, Baha'u'llah made Law equality of all men and women, that no person should exault themselves above another. This done at a time when women were Chattle in Persia and all around the world, and treated as such.

Baha'u'llah set the standard all now hold as a goal. One needs Justice of search and consideration in these matters as per the quote supplied.

God bless and regards Tony

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Good to know someone could see that slavery was wrong. Probably a drastic step at that time.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

In some things time is needed before the wisdom unfolds.
Regards Tony

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In my view the time is now. As the saying goes, 'why wait for spring?" There seems to be a lot of 'it'll change some day' in Baha'i' teachings. I wonder what forces are holding it back? The status quo? The old boy's club? If change is inevitable, why not just get it over with? I mean, just how long can a person say, 'the time is not right yet'.

Vinayaka said:

Baha'u'llah specifically said 'of a religion' and he also mentioned that only 9 religions were valid. So Baha'i's are free to reinterpret his words? (Just looking to clear my understanding, as I thought his words were infallible, and not changeable)

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Would you like more quotes there are many many more than just that one.

Baha'u'llah does not Limit Gods Faiths to 9 Religions, this is fully explained in the Kitabi-i-quan.

We treat all Humanity as one Human Race.

Regards Tony

Vinayaka said:

In my view the time is now. As the saying goes, 'why wait for spring?" There seems to be a lot of 'it'll change some day' in Baha'i' teachings. I wonder what forces are holding it back? The status quo? The old boy's club? If change is inevitable, why not just get it over with? I mean, just how long can a person say, 'the time is not right yet'.

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I read the answer to this just last night, I could post the quotes, it was longer than most would read.....so no qoutes

I will try to put it in my words;

The force that holds it back is me, it is you, it is all Humanity. We do not search out Gods Wisdom and Laws and implement them in our daily lives.

Baha'u'llah said all the Messengers of God have within their power the ability to make all submit with just one word, one event.

It is pure Love and bounty that they do not. They give man free will to make the choice, they allow man to heap the indignaties upon them as to let the Rose to be shown from the thorn, that Truth is distinguished from falsehood.

The greatest miracle in this world is what they come to acheive, that is change the hearts of men.

Baha'u'llah says it oh so much better

I will post a section of the quote, on my phone thus hard to juggle between pages.

Regards Tony

Vinayaka said:

In my view the time is now. As the saying goes, 'why wait for spring?" There seems to be a lot of 'it'll change some day' in Baha'i' teachings. I wonder what forces are holding it back? The status quo? The old boy's club? If change is inevitable, why not just get it over with? I mean, just how long can a person say, 'the time is not right yet'.

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This is a part of the Quote I mentioned above;


".....Say: If it be Our pleasure We shall render the Cause victorious through the power of a single word from Our presence. He is in truth the Omnipotent, the All-Compelling. Should it be God’s intention, there would appear out of the forests of celestial might the lion of indomitable strength whose roaring is like unto the peals of thunder reverberating in the mountains. However, since Our loving providence surpasseth all things, We have ordained that complete victory should be achieved through speech and utterance, that Our servants throughout the earth may thereby become the recipients of divine good. This is but a token of God’s bounty vouchsafed unto them. Verily thy Lord is the All-Sufficing, the Most Exalted...."

From Lawḥ-i-Síyyid-i-Mihdíy-i-Dahají
Tablet to Siyyid Mihdíy-i-Dahají

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I will try to put it in my words;

The force that holds it back is me, it is you, it is all Humanity.

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Sorry. but that just doesn't wok, or make sense. Lots of humanity, including myself, have accepted that homosexuality is a natural expression for some people. Yes, there are things that all of humanity is helbde back on, but this isn't one of them. Only some of humanity is held back. Another example here is vegetarianism. I've been a vegetarian for over 40 years now. Once I found out about the ethics of it, I just became one. End of story. Now is the time.

Perhaps I should have worded my question, 'Why are some people held back, resistant to change, while others aren't?' That's obviously the case. You could also say 'some groups of people' or 'some faiths'. But really it is an individual thing. 'Maybe some day' doesn't work for me. If you asked a girl to marry you, the last thing you want to hear is 'Maybe some day'.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

This is a part of the Quote I mentioned above;


".....Say: If it be Our pleasure We shall render the Cause victorious through the power of a single word from Our presence. He is in truth the Omnipotent, the All-Compelling. Should it be God’s intention, there would appear out of the forests of celestial might the lion of indomitable strength whose roaring is like unto the peals of thunder reverberating in the mountains. However, since Our loving providence surpasseth all things, We have ordained that complete victory should be achieved through speech and utterance, that Our servants throughout the earth may thereby become the recipients of divine good. This is but a token of God’s bounty vouchsafed unto them. Verily thy Lord is the All-Sufficing, the Most Exalted...."

From Lawḥ-i-Síyyid-i-Mihdíy-i-Dahají
Tablet to Siyyid Mihdíy-i-Dahají

Regards Tony

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Sure doesn't explain anything about the topic, which was about non-religious people being accepted.

Vinayaka said:

Perhaps I should have worded my question, 'Why are some people held back, resistant to change, while others aren't?' That's obviously the case. You could also say 'some groups of people' or 'some faiths'. But really it is an individual thing. 'Maybe some day' doesn't work for me. If you asked a girl to marry you, the last thing you want to hear is 'Maybe some day'.

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Yes, same answer. Our own self holds us back from God.

This is the quest we are all on release from self.

One should not marry someone who is not ready to to be committed. If they push the need to do this, it is self and not for the good of both.

Regards Tony

Vinayaka said:

Sure doesn't explain anything about the topic, which was about non-religious people being accepted.

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This quote says it all;

"Be generous in prosperity, and thankful in adversity. Be worthy of the trust of thy neighbor, and look upon him with a bright and friendly face. Be a treasure to the poor, an admonisher to the rich, an answerer of the cry of the needy, a preserver of the sanctity of thy pledge. Be fair in thy judgment, and guarded in thy speech. Be unjust to no man, and show all meekness to all men. Be as a lamp unto them that walk in darkness, a joy to the sorrowful, a sea for the thirsty, a haven for the distressed, an upholder and defender of the victim of oppression. Let integrity and uprightness distinguish all thine acts. Be a home for the stranger, a balm to the suffering, a tower of strength for the fugitive. Be eyes to the blind, and a guiding light unto the feet of the erring. Be an ornament to the countenance of truth, a crown to the brow of fidelity, a pillar of the temple of righteousness, a breath of life to the body of mankind, an ensign of the hosts of justice, a luminary above the horizon of virtue, a dew to the soil of the human heart, an ark on the ocean of knowledge, a sun in the heaven of bounty, a gem on the diadem of wisdom, a shining light in the firmament of thy generation, a fruit upon the tree of humiliy". Baha'u'llah

Regards Tony

CG Didymus said:

How is: "... Baha'is say that each manifestation bring new social laws to help humankind achieve an ever advancing civilization. So my question is... What new social laws did Jesus bring?" a fib? The question is to Baha'is. Part of their concept of progressive revelation says that the "spiritual laws" stay unchanged. They restated or reaffirmed, but they basically the same. But the "social laws", specific for the time and place in human history do change. So if you say you have "100's"... name me five social, changeable laws that Jesus instituted. They must be changeable or they are probably spiritual laws and not "social" laws. If that's not good enough, ask the Baha'is what they mean by "social" laws, 'cause this question was meant for them.

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Social changeable laws?
Any law can be repealed. Any law can be changed.
I told you that Jesus, his apostles and prophets changed, repealed and made masses of laws. There was no previous mention to me of siocial changeable, whatever you mrean by that.

Anyway, here are some laws that Christianity repealed. There are over 100 repeals but I just picked the first five that I saw:
Ex. 30:13 Lev. 27:32 Ex. 25:8 Ex. 30:7 Lev. 19:9

Here are some New Covenant Laws, there are hundreds, but I just picked the first five that I saw:
Colossians 3:22 2 Timothy 2:24 Luke 3:14 Romans 13:1 Galatians 5:26

In fact there are 1050 guidances, rules and laws for Christians, and all sacrificial laws, many food laws, about 25 poor-laws werre scrapped from the 613 laws of Moses.

If you don't like 'em, come back for more, and I'll give you the first five I see. Or better still, just read the New Testament!

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Yes, same answer. Our own self holds us back from God.

This is the quest we are all on release from self.

One should not marry someone who is not ready to to be committed. If they push the need to do this, it is self and not for the good of both.

Regards Tony

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As is common you missed the point, which is about being decisive, not wishy washy.

Vinayaka said:

As is common you missed the point, which is about being decisive, not wishy washy.

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Or you could consider that It when one gets Decisive, that one then gets the reply with the magic Word thrown in That one is "proselytizing" and not sharing Gods common Religion.

Thus an answer is given, that with thought, covers all belief. In this way it is shown we look for the same goal and one may think further about the game plan.

I am happy to answer any of your questions with answers direct from what Baha'u'llah has offered, with my thoughts on the passage, if we are now encouraged to do so?

Regards Tony

arthra said:

You may be over-generalizing Didymus. In my community we're active in an Inter-Faith Council and cooperate with other faith communities on common issues that face all of us. Granted some Christians don't like the Inter-faith Council but we still offer to communicate with them any way. I work with a Hindu, a Zoroastrian and a Muslim on a lot of issues.

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That's is great that you can work together, but when it comes down to it, everybody thinks their religion is more right than the other people's. And, it seems like that goes for Baha'is too... that no matter what the other religions do or say, they don't have the truth from God for today and can't bring the things needed to lead all people into a world at peace.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

This quote says it all;

"Be generous in prosperity, and thankful in adversity. Be worthy of the trust of thy neighbor, and look upon him with a bright and friendly face. Be a treasure to the poor, an admonisher to the rich, an answerer of the cry of the needy, a preserver of the sanctity of thy pledge. Be fair in thy judgment, and guarded in thy speech. Be unjust to no man, and show all meekness to all men. Be as a lamp unto them that walk in darkness, a joy to the sorrowful, a sea for the thirsty, a haven for the distressed, an upholder and defender of the victim of oppression. Let integrity and uprightness distinguish all thine acts. Be a home for the stranger, a balm to the suffering, a tower of strength for the fugitive. Be eyes to the blind, and a guiding light unto the feet of the erring. Be an ornament to the countenance of truth, a crown to the brow of fidelity, a pillar of the temple of righteousness, a breath of life to the body of mankind, an ensign of the hosts of justice, a luminary above the horizon of virtue, a dew to the soil of the human heart, an ark on the ocean of knowledge, a sun in the heaven of bounty, a gem on the diadem of wisdom, a shining light in the firmament of thy generation, a fruit upon the tree of humiliy". Baha'u'llah

Regards Tony

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Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Or you could consider that It when one gets Decisive, that one then gets the reply with the magic Word thrown in That one is "proselytizing" and not sharing Gods common Religion.

Thus an answer is given, that with thought, covers all belief. In this way it is shown we look for the same goal and one may think further about the game plan.

I am happy to answer any of your questions with answers direct from what Baha'u'llah has offered, with my thoughts on the passage, if we are now encouraged to do so?

Regards Tony

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Thanks, but no thanks. I don't need to go outside my own faith to find all the answers I need and more. Neither do you need to go outside of yours, for that matter. I already know way too much about Baha'i' to have made a firm decision regarding it. That's cause I'm a Hindu. We live, think, breathe, relate, in very different paradigms.

Have a great day.

arthra said:

Some of our laws are not enforced as yet and the way they are enforced has yet to be decided. The laws about stoning in the earlier dispensations you may be aware were enforced when people didn't have penal institutions or hospitals, etc. Each community having with an elected Assembly can deal with behaviours exhibited by people and they do so with confidentiality and sometimes refer them to counseling or therapy for help.

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The first point was that stoning didn't eliminate the behavior. So killing people won't work. But therapy? What do you tell people that are breaking the sexual laws of a religion? They are deviants? They have to pray more and ask God to change them?

I think sexual laws will always have problems. How do you tell people not to do it? And some people will do it in secret anyway. People with "gay" tendencies will go back in the closet? But I doubt if just because it's against a religious law, it will go away.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I would offer knowing the History of the Baha'i Faith and how all Faiths are first met by the people of the age, that we understand fully what reaction this Message will bring.

Yes it is with Love that all that is said is offered, it is with Love that we accept all that is given in return, even when that resulted in giving ones life so Humanity can find its unity.

I would like to offer how offended do you really need to be When it is Offered that Krishna is From God and he came for Peace Love and Justice, Buddha is from God, He came for peace Love and Justice, Abraham, Moses, Christ and Muhammad are from God they came for Peace Love and Justice. All Ancient Native Beliefs had foundation in Gods Word to give us a connection to the earth and nature and creation?

God bless all with a vision of our Unity.

Regards Tony

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God and his messengers haven't done a very good job at presenting the truth and leaving written instructions on how to live by that truth. After all this time, God finally tries having the messenger himself write everything down? Baha'i probably would include the Quran too, but how come that got messed up?

All these messengers were supposed to be bringing a progressive message that leads into the next one, but they didn't.... All the messages vary. And now, people are living and believing in these varied messages and believe them to be the ultimate truth. Now Baha'i come along and say all those practices are wrong... that the original message is gone and has been replaced by false notions?

The Baha'i Faith is fine except that it tries to make all religions related and progressive and from the same source. You talk about peace and love and justice, but to use Moses again, God told him and his followers to kill people... even their own people. God told one of the prophets in the Bible to kill hundreds of prophets from another religion. Was that religion false? Apparently. So there is such a thing as a false religion and religions that follow false concepts of God.

Some ancient beliefs had human sacrifices to their gods. All of them probably had wars with their neighboring tribes and nations and thought that their God was on their side and against the other people and tribes. So your religion is fine, but religious history is not so fine and not so unified.

Vinayaka said:

The Hindu would say, "Well, the three of us believe differently."

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Great answer.