Thief
Rogue Theologian
and when it comes down the the monetary bottom line...
would it be?.....constant distribution of monetary sums.....no withholding?
or keep it to yourself?
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Jesus was NOT a capitalist
- Thread starter Thief
- Start date
would it be?.....constant distribution of monetary sums.....no withholding?
or keep it to yourself?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
This is going nowhere, so I'm begging off.It's hard to tell whether you're talking about actual socialism or the utopian mushroom version they give to the mob instead of bread.
I never said they were stateless, they certainly aren't, but it is socialism because the government owns/controls everything. Of course your local I*y L*****e suck-a$$ political science advocate will go apoplectic at the very suggestion. Try it sometime, it's worth it. 8|
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More MSM propaganda. I just heard recently that Norway is in financial trouble, or Sweden, I forget which and neither is doing that great in any case. You just can't keep spending more money, letting people slough off, and then open the back door to free-loading conquistadors shouting "Sharia Now, Allah Acqbar!!!"
As I said you can't separate the two. Monarchies to commie states are all socialist because they all control and/or own everything. The US became a fascist state in the 30s and it's been getting worse every since. Now Trump is trying to reverse some of it, but the Establishment isn't going to give up it's money and power without a massive fight.
It's right there at the end, "control of industry and commerce". You can't separate them. Wikipedia is the exception for putting those two characteristics together in one sentence.
...versus:
There they are together again. And as usual they give lip service to "democratic control". Most dictators have sham elections, or take control soon after they're elected. It's inevitable. And because the mob is composed mostly of emotional, useful idiots, the history is never learned by succeeding mobs, until they run the country into the ground like Venezuela. Of course most such banana republics don't have far to fall.
Again, the only real difference between socialism and communism is control vs ownership by the state.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
but that's not capitalism
ThePainefulTruth
Romantic-Cynic
That's the one big question mark, what initiated the Big Bang. Any belief one way or the other is unfounded since it appears that the Big Bang is perfect firewall for not allowing information from "outside" or "before" the universe to be detected. If God caused it, that would be by design, in order to keep It's existence from being discovered by we sentients. I used to think that such a perfect absence of any such evidence was an indication of design. How could an inanimate cause do anything for a purpose? But then I realized, we can't use an absence of evidence, as evidence. Still.... And one more thing, the only God such an intentional absence would indicate, would be a deist God.
Jesus used the metaphor "easier for a camel (or rope depending on the translation) to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." The point, whatever the metaphor might have been, was that it was very hard, but not impossible. If Jesus thought it was impossible, certainly he would have said so. And Jesus, or whoever made the saying up, isn't necessarily right anyway. But I think we can all agree that such a warning to rich people is warranted.
You think Jesus' politics is undetermined? In any case, I think you'll find all such discussions, religious or political (read secular religious), will have those invested in faith being at loggerheadswith those invested in reason. But, I am evidence for there being at least a few exceptions to that rule and getting through the impasse; with the people who influenced me the most probably never knowing they had done so. So now look at me, at the pinnacle of intellectual development, wondering if others i may have influenced being even higher. You're welcome.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Since it says in Acts that the apostles shared their wealth together, I tend to feel that they must have gotten that from somewhere.
Also, Jesus would have been familiar with the numerous Jewish Laws that were designed to help the poor and the widows, and he said that his followers should go beyond what was required. Plus there are quite a few other statements from him teaching the need to share.
IOW, "render under Caesar that which is Caesar's...".
ThePainefulTruth
Romantic-Cynic
All voluntary though, which is a huge difference.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
push a camel through the eye of a needle......and there is not much left of the beast
nothing but the hair would be intact
but I suspect the poor in spirit, and denial will fair no better
it is written somewhere
....someone will come to the window and say......go away, we don't know you
ThePainefulTruth
Romantic-Cynic
Activists for ever cause in the world say that.
My response is:
"All you have to do is knock on any door and say, 'If you let me in, I'll live the way you want me to live, and I'll think the way you want me to think,' and all the blinds'll go up and all the windows will open, and you'll never be lonely, ever again."
We're much more likely to be exiled for standing up for the Truth than for conforming.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
That's not the point though, which is that they did share their incomes together, which is a socialist model. Plus there's the issue of Jewish Law dealing with helping the poor and widows that was not negated by Jesus nor the apostles as I mentioned in my last post, and that was not voluntary.
ThePainefulTruth
Romantic-Cynic
Where has socialism ever been voluntary? You're trying too hard to paint it with a rosy light to make it seem beneficent, which it's never been even though a few may have had those intentions to begin with--and of course the rest promised it.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Maybe read this: Democratic socialism - Wikipedia
ThePainefulTruth
Romantic-Cynic
It says, "The term "democratic socialism" is sometimes used synonymously with "socialism"; the adjective "democratic" is often added to distinguish it from the Leninist, Stalinist and Maoist types of socialism"
No matter what you call it, democratic socialism or utopian socialism, the problem is that it always degenerates into some form of autocratic socialism with the accretion of centralized power. And the "social ownership of the means of production", is the definition of communism. What is the incentive for individuals to desire such a system? It always boils down to "sloth" and/or "hate". And who you gonna hate on when society takes over, with no more class warfare to demagogue?
"Democratic socialism" also seems to cover capitalism with a social safety net.
And the means of production are still in private hands. This can succeed
because the crushing authoritarianism necessary for socialism isn't needed.
Looking at Canuckistan, which is arguably more capitalistic than Americastan,
we see free health care (a feature of democratic socialism) & relative freedom.
ThePainefulTruth
Romantic-Cynic
Democratic socialism, aka fascism, is technically capitalism since capitalists retain ownership. But it's still under government control--and the distinction between government control and government ownership, is in actuality, a distinction without a difference. And pleeeeeze, deliver me from any "social safety net", read government safety net.
.....BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.Note the lie at the bottom which was on the card from 1946 until 1972:
We're already under government control.Democratic socialism, aka fascism, is technically capitalism since capitalists retain ownership. But it's still under government control--and the distinction between government control and government ownership, is in actuality, a distinction without a difference. And pleeeeeze, deliver me from any "social safety net", read government safety net.
Note the lie at the bottom which was on the card from 1946 until 1972:
The only questions are the extent & to what purpose.
Social safety nets are here to stay. With a majority of the population on the dole
in one form or another, they'll continue to vote themselves ever more largesse.
We need to avoid losing liberty in the process of keeping the masses happy.
ThePainefulTruth
Romantic-Cynic
Indeed, the first shot across the bow of our capitalist economy started with the intrusive income tax, and then the War on Drugs (to supplant the war on alcohol) and Social Security.
We were able to take a breather under Reagan, but it's been stoke the fires of that locomotive constantly otherwise. Trump is showing promise however, being a capatalist, but not a libertarian. At least he's not establishment who is the real enemy.
Amen. But Trump and the masses have our work cut out for us. The Establishment being what it is, it's not going to take it's foot off the gas until we implode.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Interesting times lie ahead.
ThePainefulTruth
Romantic-Cynic
I take it you think not? Democratic socialism = Fascism = National socialism = Nazi. They may say all those are different but they just keep changing the names to keep people that deal with facts off balance. The left's first target is ALWAYS the lexicon. When you get to define the terms, and change them about as necessary, you're never wrong--technically.
Hell, they've been interesting since JFK was assassinated......by LBJ. And now we have liberals (largely populated by the gay and feminazi communities) saying we must understand the Muslims--and oh yeah, they think that somebody should be killing the police and the President, and then they say they don't mean it.
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