How are these Great Beings explained?

Vinayaka · Jul 20, 2017

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I ask you then these questions

1) Is your Love not genuine?
2) Do you not Abhor what is evil?
3) Do you not try to hold fast to what is good?
4) Do you not try to Love one another with brotherly affection?
5) Do you not attempt to Outdo one another in showing honor?
6) Are you slothful in zeal?
7) Are you against being fervent in spirit,to serve the Lord?
8) Do you not Rejoice in hope?
9) Are you against being patient in tribulation?
10) Are you against being constant in prayer?
11) Do you not assist with the needs of fellow believers?
12) Do you not seek to show hospitality?

I think this will show the point being made. You would be saying I am glad I do not have those virtues as it is the Virtues that show you are a true Christian, not a Name, not a division in Faith.

Now if you do see the wisdom in that advice and practice what was said, then you are a Christian as well as a Hindu.

Regards Tony

1) I hope it's genuine, but I don't know. It's hard some days to look at oneself.
2) I don't believe in evil, so it's hard to abhor it.
3) I don't believe in 'good' either.
4) Sure, and inclusive of homosexuals.
5) Never
6) No idea what that means.
7) No, but not for it either
8) Nope.
9) No idea what that means
10) No, not against much.
11) Not just fellow believers, but non-believers too.
12) Sure, guest is God in Hinduism.

But I have no idea what point you are trying to make. I rarely do, Tony. Your conversation includes so much Bahai-speak that I honestly have a hard time following youtr words and your logic.

The vastly different paradigms make me feel we're not on the same planet.

Vinayaka · Jul 20, 2017

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
May you always be happy, well, content and I hope you do come out from behind that door again

Regards Tony

The conversion door has long since closed, Tony. In fact I do have a sign about proselytizing on my Real door. As the saying goes, you're barking up the wrong tree. Hindus like me are generally so content in their faith they don't even want to look around, let alone feel any need to. I do as a representative getting to know the enemy.

I mean, is your conversion door open to the Christians?

TransmutingSoul · Jul 20, 2017

Vinayaka said:
The conversion door has long since closed, Tony. In fact I do have a sign about proselytizing on my Real door. As the saying goes, you're barking up the wrong tree. Hindus like me are generally so content in their faith they don't even want to look around, let alone feel any need to. I do as a representative getting to know the enemy.

I mean, is your conversion door open to the Christians?

The door is always open as to why people believe as they do. Thus it is great to get to know how you perceive Faith and Life.

I assume you are talking about a Christian that sees no other Name than 'Jesus' as the way to God. Would you like me to eliminate my Love for Krishna, or any of the Beauty of Hinduism, or maybe Buddha or Muhammad so I can do this?

:hugehug:

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul · Jul 20, 2017

Vinayaka said:
1) I hope it's genuine, but I don't know. It's hard some days to look at oneself.
2) I don't believe in evil, so it's hard to abhor it.
3) I don't believe in 'good' either.
4) Sure, and inclusive of homosexuals.
5) Never
6) No idea what that means.
7) No, but not for it either
8) Nope.
9) No idea what that means
10) No, not against much.
11) Not just fellow believers, but non-believers too.
12) Sure, guest is God in Hinduism.

But I have no idea what point you are trying to make. I rarely do, Tony. Your conversation includes so much Bahai-speak that I honestly have a hard time following youtr words and your logic.

The vastly different paradigms make me feel we're not on the same planet.

Vinayaka - The point is Live the Life, may yours be rewarding. Will leave it there, so God Bless always

Regards Tony

Vinayaka · Jul 20, 2017

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The door is always open as to why people believe as they do. Thus it is great to get to know how you perceive Faith and Life.

I assume you are talking about a Christian that sees no other Name than 'Jesus' as the way to God. Would you like me to eliminate my Love for Krishna, or any of the Beauty of Hinduism, or maybe Buddha or Muhammad so I can do this?

Regards Tony

What beauty do you see in Hinduism, Tony? I mean Hindu concepts, not Baha'i' misinterpreted 'Hindu' concepts. I'd be curious as to what you actually know about my faith. The above, for example is a Baha'i' misinterpretation.

Vinayaka · Jul 20, 2017

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Vinayaka - The point is Live the Life, may yours be rewarding. Will leave it there, so God Bless always

Regards Tony

Live the Life. That's a point? You mean live the life of a murderer? Seriously, I simply do not understand. I'm not trying to play dumb here, I'm seriously having a hard time figuring out what you're trying to say. I'm not Baha'i' and can't follow your stuff.

CG Didymus · Jul 21, 2017

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I think you are busy balancing, trying to balance everything I have spoken too many Jews on the Net, they are quick to tell you the Bible is not their book and to some you quote the Torah.

At the same time Christians would have to be more understanding as a portion of the Jewish scriptures form part of the book now known as the Bible for a good reason. If you are a Christian and know little about the Faith Christ was raised in, you really know little about Christianity and doctrines not compatible with the Torah become possible. The Bible is a combination of Scriptures from the NT sources and some Jewish sources.

Passages such as John 5:46-47 show that we must know what Moses is saying unto us; "46If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?”. As a Christian why would you not then go back and try to understand what Moses was saying about Christ?

What I think is it is time to look for the Common Truth in all Scriptures. Regards Tony

What did Moses say about Jesus? But don't you think it strange that Christianity has such a strong connection Judaism, but what about all the other supposed religions that came from the God of Israel?

CG Didymus · Jul 21, 2017

oldbadger said:
The 613? Mostly the laws of Moses?

So these laws, in your opinion, did not apply to Galileans, or Northern provinces..... just to Western Aramaic speaking peoples? That wlould have excluded Jesus from them, then.

Nor did the Jews, later on, in early 1st century Jewish provinces.

Apart from the 96 laws about sacrifice...... could you show me one single spiritual law from the remaining 507 laws?

Jesus lead a mission to re-establish the 507, every one of which was written to strength, protect, secure, cohese, control and make successful the Israelites.
I don't understand why you think these only applied to 'Hebrew people'. Even the Samaritans lived by these laws, surely?

I don't understand your point. This was addressed to the Baha'is. They claim that each manifestation maintains the spiritual laws but comes with a new set of "social" laws. That is what I want to know. What were these new social laws that Jesus brought?

CG Didymus · Jul 21, 2017

Vinayaka said:
Very different than saying 'different beliefs', for sure.

That is what was so weird about that Islamic quote about all the religions being one or whatever it was. Something like that is not found in Christianity. They believe they are the only ones, because the NT tells them so. The only way out of it is to not believe the NT. Or, do like the Baha'is and reinterpret it to mean what they what it to.

CG Didymus · Jul 21, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
Jesus to me brought a new spirit not so much a new social order like Muhammad or Baha'u'llah. His strength and Teachings lie in the fact that He emphasised heavenly virtues and the way we should treat each other. Even today, if we all followed what He taught this world would be a paradise.

How about a Christian group like the Amish? How much closer can anybody get to following Jesus than them. They are non-violent, reject materialism and the ways of the world. They live simple lives in peace. Why don't more join them?

CG Didymus · Jul 21, 2017

Vinayaka said:
LH, from what you know, did Jesus say anything about the people of the east? (I mean Hindus, but we weren't known as Hindus then) I know his followers, at least many of them, have a very negative view of my religion, calling it the religion of the devil, harmful, anti-idol worship, and all that stuff. Since your prophet didn't say much at all, and his grandson was both wrong about it and quite incomplete, what can I assume about something over 2000 years ago.

I know about the myth that Christ studied in India, but that's about it. That, from my POV is just a myth.

Personally, I just assume nothing, and from what I can tell the Baha'i' just assume all positivity. So I'm wondering if there is anything at all. Maybe Didymus knows something too. Thanks in advance.

The sad thing... is I know some fundamental Christians that believe Gandhi is in hell for not believing in Jesus. So if there is anything in the Christian that mentions anything about all these "Great Beings" be one and sent from the same God, they certainly don't know about it. And they are the ones that taught me, so what do I know? I read the book and they "helped" me understand its meaning... Jesus is the only way.

They completely reject Baha'u'llah and his religion. They see him as a false teacher, because he misinterprets the message of the NT. Abdul Baha says that Jesus didn't rise from the dead? That is the whole point of the Gospels.

And then, as far as Hinduism goes, I think I mentioned it, one Christian leader writes books warning Christians about doing Yoga... because it opens the door the demonic influences.

So I don't know anything at all of anything Jesus said or his followers said that would make anyone think anything good about any other religion. But why, from a religion that says that all religions are one. Why didn't they say more about Hinduism? But then to reject and/or reinterpret a core belief like reincarnation? The Hinduism they are talking about is not the Hinduism that is being practiced. And neither is the Christianity they talk about the one being practiced.

CG Didymus · Jul 21, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
All I know and that's not a terrible lot, is that Christ initially taught to love all people, however, Christians went away from these teachings and while professing them verbally, they have failed, as you can see, to love their fellow Hindu brother. All people are human beings so Christ did not say love only Christians but meant every human being we come across.

However the priests and clergy have politicised and segmented His original Teqchings to infer anyone who is not a follower of Christ is more or less an infidel like the Muslims believe,

The original Educators and Teachers only taught good not hate or evil. This is why, we believe, religion is renewed in each age as it spiritually withers and dies over time although it's outward form remains but it no longer gives true light.

With so many religions in the world today we should have peace b y now but are all these religions spiritually alive or just political organisations? One cannot kill and hate and maintain one is religious yet many do so is this real religion we see today or maybe it's death?

Is there not a need for the renewal of the true spirit of love and fellowship amongst men?

So Jesus included all men when He said to love thy neighbour enemies and that includes people of all Faiths and Hindus most definitely. A Christian who does not love a Hindu is no Christian.

The Christians I know love everybody, but because they do they want to get them saved.The "truth" they share, in love, is that all people are sinners and are dying in their sins. The just punishment for that is to be sent to hell. But, if you confess your sins and turn to Jesus, He will save you and forgive you of your sins. And then you get to go to heaven. Unfortunately for all the other religions, including the Baha'i Faith, you're still stuck in your sins. Your manifestations can't save you, only Jesus. Or so believes the Christians.

oldbadger · Jul 21, 2017

CG Didymus said:
I don't understand your point. This was addressed to the Baha'is. They claim that each manifestation maintains the spiritual laws but comes with a new set of "social" laws. That is what I want to know. What were these new social laws that Jesus brought?

Hello....

It was just that you wrote:-
Laws that were specific to the Hebrews people from their God. ....... which was wrong. Those laws were not specific to Hebrew people and I showed that.

I also showed that certainly 507 of the 613 were laws to build up a very powerful, healthy, successful people, the Israelites, and these laws were kept by Eastern and Western Aramaic speakers, and Samaritans, and others, that's all.

The Bahai laws are nearly as clearly defined but I don't think that they suit or fit with our multi-cultural, multi-faith, secular, gender-equal western world, is all.

But those 507 laws were brilliant, back in the day, and hard to beat for pure and wonderful legislation and Justice.

loverofhumanity · Jul 21, 2017

CG Didymus said:
The Christians I know love everybody, but because they do they want to get them saved.The "truth" they share, in love, is that all people are sinners and are dying in their sins. The just punishment for that is to be sent to hell. But, if you confess your sins and turn to Jesus, He will save you and forgive you of your sins. And then you get to go to heaven. Unfortunately for all the other religions, including the Baha'i Faith, you're still stuck in your sins. Your manifestations can't save you, only Jesus. Or so believes the Christians.

That's condescension not love. The concept that 'we are saved and others are not' never began with Jesus. It's a fallacy born of egotistical passions to feel superior to others which is a form of insecurity and lack of true faith.

If I have true faith in my belief I don't need to say I'm better than you because no religion professes anything but humility and if I'm not at least trying to be humble then I'm not religious no matter what I call myself.

Any religionists which boasts superiority has got it wrong and needs to learn to be humble like Jesus was. Exalting oneself over others is evil, especially that we are all created from the same dust. So I'm not special because I'm a Baha'i and you're nit and you are not damned or going to hell. When it all plays out you may be the one who is seen as a better person by God than me. I have no way if knowing.

Even in our fasting prayer Baha'u'llah says that if God considers the person who didn't fast, that he did fast then he fasted and if he considered the person who did fast not to have fasted then although he did the fast, God may decide he didn't do it.

So things like this leave every Bahá'í guessing. Bahaullah says not to despise thes sinner because 'no one knows what his own end will be'. So how are we to say who is better or who is not?

loverofhumanity · Jul 21, 2017

CG Didymus said:
How about a Christian group like the Amish? How much closer can anybody get to following Jesus than them. They are non-violent, reject materialism and the ways of the world. They live simple lives in peace. Why don't more join them?

All peaceful and non violent groups are an asset to the society in which they may reside. The more groups the world has who renounce all kinds of aggression and conflict, the better.

loverofhumanity · Jul 21, 2017

Vinayaka said:
Another stark difference in paradigms ... obviously the term 'enlightened' means very different things to you and to me, and to the dharmic, versus Abrahamic paradigms.

I would call a person enlightened who was attracted to do good deeds, to serve humanity, to be virtuous , who believes in peace and non violence. I think you might fall under a number of these categories.

loverofhumanity · Jul 21, 2017

Vinayaka said:
Yes I do look to deeds. Unfortunately some people see certain deeds as helpful, whereas I'd see them as harmful. It's complicated. A few examples are proselytising/sharing, (some people view it as helpful, I don't) vegetarianism, and outright charity without teaching anything. Life on this planet is never simple.

Is Universal compulsory education proselytising? Just as reading and writing are essential for life so too is good character and so teaching religion in that sense I see as essential as basic education.

In this day and age virtue is shunned while vice has been promoted. The battle to win hearts back to the spiritual life must be fought otherwise society will only sink deeper into immorality and vice. I see spiritual & material education as both essential and both go hand in hand but the objection to teaching or promoting religion I view as an illness of our materialistic society.

Beer, sex, pornography and violence are openly and unashamedly promoted all over the world without so much as any objection yet to teach religion, to do good and be Holy and virtues is so opposed why? If we're going to call calling people to a Holy and virtuous life proselytising then so we should also maths and science because a lot of education is compulsary and the child is forced to to educated whereas in religion one can always decide for oneself.

Unveiled Artist · Jul 21, 2017

Vinayaka said:
Live the Life. That's a point? You mean live the life of a murderer? Seriously, I simply do not understand. I'm not trying to play dumb here, I'm seriously having a hard time figuring out what you're trying to say. I'm not Baha'i' and can't follow your stuff.

I am hoping so much that this conversation point will have a good educational conclusion. Ive asked this many times at the core how two different people come to peace (or understanding in this case) without having to offer word without method of execution.

Anyway

Vinayaka · Jul 21, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
I would call a person enlightened who was attracted to do good deeds, to serve humanity, to be virtuous , who believes in peace and non violence. I think you might fall under a number of these categories.

You're entitled to any definition you want, but it's not in harmony with the Hindu defintion, so I'll explain that one to you some, for your information, and hopefully, to increase your knowledge and have you recognise and acknowledge the vast difference.

Enlightenment in Hinduism means Self-realised, having had the 'experience' of nirvikalpa samadhi, merger with God. It its the culmination of lifetimes of penance, seva, meditation. The yogi, in the beginning stages, sees light within his own head, sees his spine as a scintillating column of light, and then in the deepest of samadhi, merges with that same light. This is real light, inner light, not some vague description of 'having knowledge' as it's used in the west. This can only happen with celibacy, renunciation, where awareness goes up the spine through the 7 chakras, and stays in the sahaswara chakra. Never to be the same again, the one transformation all yogis seek, the ultimate goal of life in Sanatana Dharma.

So it's very very different, as usual.

Once again, I am not enlightened.

Vinayaka · Jul 21, 2017

Carlita said:
I am hoping so much that this conversation point will have a good educational conclusion.

I'm hoping so too, but I don't have high hopes. The last time I found something I couldn't understand, it never did get answered. Perhaps it's an idiom I don't get. I really don't know. Do you know what 'live the life' means?

How are these Great Beings explained?

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