Eternal Punishment

Is eternal torment ever deserved? I was wondering, as I feel as though no one would really deserve spending eternity in Hell. I am a hateful person, do not get me wrong, but eternity is essentially pure pain. I can't support that.

Not eternity no, that would be grossly disproportionate to any crime a human could commit, maybe if you willfully destroy the entire universe.

Corvus said:

Not eternity no, that would be grossly disproportionate to any crime a human could commit, maybe if you willfully destroy the entire universe.

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Exactly. Eternity is infinite, and no crime is infinite in its effects. Absolute, maybe, but not infinite.

Hammerheart said:

Is eternal torment ever deserved? I was wondering, as I feel as though no one would really deserve spending eternity in Hell. I am a hateful person, do not get me wrong, but eternity is essentially pure pain. I can't support that.

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If there were "one true god" and Jehovah was that guy, then I shouldn't be here. I am, so, suck it.

If you must be a fearful little mental slave to your god, it doesn't do much to demonstrate the 'value' proposition. I rather spend an eternity in "hell" than five minutes in "heaven" stuck with that guy.

You know hate is only useful if used positively. Light a candle, not curse the darkness. Said the light bearer. (Me being spiritual)

Mindmaster said:

I rather spend an eternity in "hell" than five minutes in "heaven" stuck with that guy.

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We can look the abyss back in the eye, and laugh. From chaos we spawned, back into the chaos we will go. We lost nothing.

I am done now.

Hammerheart said:

Is eternal torment ever deserved? I was wondering, as I feel as though no one would really deserve spending eternity in Hell. I am a hateful person, do not get me wrong, but eternity is essentially pure pain. I can't support that.

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Hitler, Stalin and others who have committed mass genocide won't be missed. Islam teaches only the worst of mankind will suffer eternal punishment, and the worst amongst them, possibly like the ones I mentioned will be destroyed completely, their soul will be no more.

People who have had NDE and experienced punishment outside of Hell will tell you, they never want to ever think about being punished in the same way, never mind stepping one foot in Hell. People have no idea hell starts in the grave, aeons before Judgement day.

It is such a ghoulish notion, to dumbly torment a person and never let them go, to never consider the possibility of reprieve and rehabilitation. I think hell is going out of vogue in Christianity, and annihilation is rising in prominence, apparently that is god being more "humane". It is pretty hard to assimilate hell with a "god of love", even for the most supple mental gymnast, you don't hear many preachers talk about it these days.

It is not something I worry about, an odious idea from some odious religious people of antiquity. I think it deserves to be consigned to the bin with the rest of their hysterical nonsense.

The Holy Bottom Burp said:

It is such a ghoulish notion, to dumbly torment a person and never let them go, to never consider the possibility of reprieve and rehabilitation. I think hell is going out of vogue in Christianity, and annihilation is rising in prominence, apparently that is god being more "humane". It is pretty hard to assimilate hell with a "god of love", even for the most supple mental gymnast, you don't hear many preachers talk about it these days.

It is not something I worry about, an odious idea from some odious religious people of antiquity. I think it deserves to be consigned to the bin with the rest of their hysterical nonsense.

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Hell is indeed being expunged from the Bible, going out of vogue as you say:

Hell is Leaving the Bible Forever

Christians can sleep easier at night. Lots of people say, there's no hell in Judaism, so Christianity and Islam have just incorporated Greek mythology into their religions. One only has to study Jewish History to discover, they were a rebellious stiff necked people, who tested God at almost every turn. Are we really to believe the learned amongst them did not remove mention of Hell from their Scriptures?

Here's a version of Hell that was kept out of the NT:

18. And the glory of the dwellers there was equal, and with one voice they sang praises alternately to the Lord God, rejoicing in that place. 19. The Lord saith to us: This is the place of your high-priests, the righteous men.

20. And over against that place I saw another, squalid, and it was the place of punishment; and those who were punished there and the punishing angels had their raiment dark like the air of the place.

21. And there were certain there hanging by the tongue: and these were the blasphemers of the way of righteousness; and under them lay fire, burning and punishing them. 22. And there was a great lake, full of flaming mire, in which were certain men that pervert righteousness, and tormenting angels afflicted them.

23. And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair over that mire that bubbled up: and these were they who adorned themselves for adultery; and the men who mingled with them in the defilement of adultery, were hanging by the feet and their heads in that mire. And I said: I did not believe that I should come into this place.

24. And I saw the murderers and those who conspired with them, cast into a certain strait place, full of evil snakes, and smitten by those beasts, and thus turning to and fro in that punishment; and worms, as it were clouds of darkness, afflicted them. And the souls of the murdered stood and looked upon the punishment of those murderers and said: O God, thy judgment is just.

25. And near that place I saw another strait place into which the gore and the filth of those who were being punished ran down and became there as it were a lake: and there sat women having the gore up to their necks, and over against them sat many children who were born to them out of due time, crying; and there came forth from them sparks of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were the accursed who conceived and caused abortion.

26. And other men and women were burning up to the middle and were cast into a dark place and were beaten by evil spirits, and their inwards were eaten by restless worms: and these were they who persecuted the righteous and delivered them up.

27. And near those there were again women and men gnawing their own lips, and being punished and receiving a red-hot iron in their eyes: and these were they who blasphemed and slandered the way of righteousness.

28. And over against these again other men and women gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths: and these were the false witnesses.

29. And in a certain other place there were pebbles sharper than swords or any spit, red-hot, and women and men in tattered and filthy raiment rolled about on them in punishment: and these were the rich who trusted in their riches and had no pity for orphans and widows, and despised the commandment of God.

30. And in another great lake, full of pitch and blood and mire bubbling up, there stood men and women up to their knees: and these were the usurers and those who take interest on interest.

31. And other men and women were being hurled down from a great cliff and reached the bottom, and again were driven by those who were set over them to climb up upon the cliff, and thence were hurled down again, and had no rest from this punishment: and these were they who defiled their bodies acting as women; and the women who were with them were those who lay with one another as a man with a woman.

32. And alongside of that cliff there was a place full of much fire, and there stood men who with their own hands had made for themselves carven images instead of God. And alongside of these were other men and women, having rods and striking each other and never ceasing from such punishment.

33. And others again near them, women and men, burning and turning themselves and roasting: and these were they that leaving the way of God

The Apocalypse of Peter (translation by Roberts-Donaldson)

Mindmaster said:

If there were "one true god" and Jehovah was that guy, then I shouldn't be here. I am, so, suck it.

If you must be a fearful little mental slave to your god, it doesn't do much to demonstrate the 'value' proposition. I rather spend an eternity in "hell" than five minutes in "heaven" stuck with that guy.

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If one needs the fear of something as horrible as eternal torment to persuade them into a certain religion, I don't think that their relationship with that god would be particularly sincere or powerful; there's not much value to that faith.

Hammerheart said:

If one needs the fear of something as horrible as eternal torment to persuade them into a certain religion, I don't think that their relationship with that god would be particularly sincere or powerful; there's not much value to that faith.

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It's simply Stockholm syndrome, and we realize that is a psychological disorder rather than a choice. You're being held against your will, but because your friends and family and everything you ever knew are involved in it you do not see it negatively even though it is. This goes from excusing pedophilia, murder, intolerance, and any number of terrible human traits because the "captors" can do no wrong. We just need to deal with it for what it is - a spiritual and mental prison.

Muslim-UK said:

Here's a version of Hell that was kept out of the NT:

18. And the glory of the dwellers there was equal, and with one voice they sang praises alternately to the Lord God, rejoicing in that place. 19. The Lord saith to us: This is the place of your high-priests, the righteous men.

20. And over against that place I saw another, squalid, and it was the place of punishment; and those who were punished there and the punishing angels had their raiment dark like the air of the place.

21. And there were certain there hanging by the tongue: and these were the blasphemers of the way of righteousness; and under them lay fire, burning and punishing them. 22. And there was a great lake, full of flaming mire, in which were certain men that pervert righteousness, and tormenting angels afflicted them.

23. And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair over that mire that bubbled up: and these were they who adorned themselves for adultery; and the men who mingled with them in the defilement of adultery, were hanging by the feet and their heads in that mire. And I said: I did not believe that I should come into this place.

24. And I saw the murderers and those who conspired with them, cast into a certain strait place, full of evil snakes, and smitten by those beasts, and thus turning to and fro in that punishment; and worms, as it were clouds of darkness, afflicted them. And the souls of the murdered stood and looked upon the punishment of those murderers and said: O God, thy judgment is just.

25. And near that place I saw another strait place into which the gore and the filth of those who were being punished ran down and became there as it were a lake: and there sat women having the gore up to their necks, and over against them sat many children who were born to them out of due time, crying; and there came forth from them sparks of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were the accursed who conceived and caused abortion.

26. And other men and women were burning up to the middle and were cast into a dark place and were beaten by evil spirits, and their inwards were eaten by restless worms: and these were they who persecuted the righteous and delivered them up.

27. And near those there were again women and men gnawing their own lips, and being punished and receiving a red-hot iron in their eyes: and these were they who blasphemed and slandered the way of righteousness.

28. And over against these again other men and women gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths: and these were the false witnesses.

29. And in a certain other place there were pebbles sharper than swords or any spit, red-hot, and women and men in tattered and filthy raiment rolled about on them in punishment: and these were the rich who trusted in their riches and had no pity for orphans and widows, and despised the commandment of God.

30. And in another great lake, full of pitch and blood and mire bubbling up, there stood men and women up to their knees: and these were the usurers and those who take interest on interest.

31. And other men and women were being hurled down from a great cliff and reached the bottom, and again were driven by those who were set over them to climb up upon the cliff, and thence were hurled down again, and had no rest from this punishment: and these were they who defiled their bodies acting as women; and the women who were with them were those who lay with one another as a man with a woman.

32. And alongside of that cliff there was a place full of much fire, and there stood men who with their own hands had made for themselves carven images instead of God. And alongside of these were other men and women, having rods and striking each other and never ceasing from such punishment.

33. And others again near them, women and men, burning and turning themselves and roasting: and these were they that leaving the way of God

The Apocalypse of Peter (translation by Roberts-Donaldson)

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Sure, I've heard of the Apocalypse of Peter, by any standard that is embarrassingly childish but ghoulish nonsense. There were a lot of "apocryphal" gospels, a lot of writings attributed to Peter or Paul, a lot of fanciful tales of miraculous acts that were eventually rejected as forgery/heresy by what became the "orthodox" church. Christians would argue the holy spirit guided the early church to "discern" the false testimony and eventually settle on the "canon" of the bible, god's true word.

I'll let you argue that one out with the Christians!

Justice is when the punishment is proportionate to the crime. There is nothing a human commit that is equal to eternal torture, thus the concept of everlasting hell is unjust. Also, the purpose of punishment is correction and rehabilitation, not sadistic ego gratification.

Infinity is not a number (say, after 1 million and 1, then infinity), and eternity is not a duration (say after 1000 years in hell you reach eternity - likewise that's false).

All there can ever be is more and more finite punishment.

Well you never claimed if there was a moral element involved so yes eternal punishment is justified. In the closed system of a deities authority then yes it is justified. Whether it is moral or not is a whole other issue as anything can be justified given the right circumstances

Here is an example of what I was referring to earlier:

God is a being of maximum good while Satan is a being of maximum maliciousness. God and Satan are metaphysical in degree of power yet completely naturalistic in their existence. They cannot afford to let somebody of a certain physical quality exist in their abode and all of humanity is divided between the righteous and the sinful. Only so much righteousness and sinfulness is permissible in order to enter either abode.

People like Adolf Hitler, Teresa, Obama and Stalin are well over the 50% margin of sinfulness and henceforth go straight to hell while people like Ann Coulter, Carlin, Trump and Manson are over the 50% margin in righteousness and go straight to heaven.

It is not that a god wants people to eternally suffer but that those of a certain quality become tainted by their actions regardless if the action is good or bad. Good people stain themselves with righteousness and bad people stain themselves with sin. This god is a being of good so naturally the outcome for the good is to be with god and visa versa for Satan.

What if this is not up to a god and merely up to one's actions and is merely a metaphysical occurrence that occurs organically without any will from a god. What if God is merely a result of that which is good and Satan is a result of that which is evil. Regardless of morality what if it is merely a result of those who are incapable of being around others of a certain type? Are spirits experience a naturally occurring apartheid.

if never those punished repent, than never should they escape hell. The goal of punishment is to change the hearts of the guilty into just people. They should lose what they take away from the innocent.

The nature, and intent of those actions is what is judged. The actions themselves are unacceptable to justice. but you must establish nature and intent, and than deliver the equal punishment if found to be guilty.

a lot of people I see wonder if evil is a permanent nature. evil itself if eternal, should be eternally punished.

Yet what stands in existence as True justice. it's imperative to create justice for society to exist. no God is making it happen out there. thus existence will always war between good and evil.

life is meant for the just. but existence don't care either way. Yet evil is senseless, and good is the prosperity of mankind.

I've often felt that those who feel an eternal punishment can be justified probably haven't reflected on the concept of eternity all that much. I doubt that many people could wrap their heads around, say, 1000 years of existence without the addition of ever-present suffering. I would be frankly amazed if somebody could properly conceive of 10,000 years of existence.

There are all sorts of metaphors used to convey the immensity of eternal punishment but none of them come close to truly conveying what eternity actually is. I'm not convinced anything could adequately describe it. Suffice it to say that 10,000 years isn't even a blip in comparison to forever

So, I doubt that many people who attempt to justify eternal punishment have really thought things through. Those who have, and who continue to consider it just and proper, have something missing from them in my opinion. I take a pretty bleak view of humanity but even I don't have the sheer spite to genuinely celebrate eternal damnation.

Well, lets say there is no hell and there are 10 heavens, ought everyone go unto the highest heaven, or ought the bad people go to the lowest one?