anonymous9887
bible reader
Deformities have been around way longer than you think. This isn't something new.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
How do you Define God????
- Thread starter Bird123
- Start date
anonymous9887
bible reader
How do you interpret Surah 3:6
Jesus pbuh did all those things according to the NT.
Without having a connection with God humans are imperfect, yes.
Not according to the NT.
We take our lesson from Adam and eve pbut, they made a mistake and they repented, turned back to God. Satan refused to repent, blaming mankind instead. Two paths for us to chose, either make mistakes as we inevitably will and turn to God, as the Torah teaches, or be led astray by Satan, who has no power on Earth.
Islam: God created Adam and Eve pbut with the intention of placing them on Earth as vicegerents. They were created superior to all of Creation, including Angels and Jinn.
Take Islam out of the equation and explain why man sins then?
Those created in healthy environments, but happen to be born deaf, blind or deformed etc are tests for the parents. Caring for such a child would elevate both parents in the sight of God.
anonymous9887
bible reader
1. Ok show me the so- called sins. Jesus fulfilled scripture and did only what the father commanded him John 5:30
2. I agree that Adam would be a ruler on earth, but why would god put an imperfect man in charge of such responsibility?
3. Man sins because it is in our genetics. Adam and Eve were created perfect and became imperfect when they disobeyed god in the 1st scene of disobedience. When Adam and Eve became transgressors they went from immortal to mortal, and therefore their offspring inherited sin and death. Had Adam and Eve not sinned no one would die, and they would have been alive to this day. That's why god told him in the day you eat from the fruit you will die, because Adam was created immortal, Why else would Jehovah god mention that to him. We are prone to sin, but must make an attempt to remain sinless, it shows our trust in god's sacrifice and in his power.
anonymous9887
bible reader
Ok so you are comfortable knowing that god intentionally puts many humans through this suffering on purpose? I can not see a loving god do this. That is not fair that many receive Allah through little suffering while living in luxury, while poor people that barely make it are given this "test"
James 1:13
Job 34:10,12
He whipped the money changers, scolded his mother, calling her 'Woman' at the wedding, ignored her when his family went looking for him, called the Samaritan a dog, yelled at his companions, calling Peter Satan, was angry when the man with the withered hand asked to be healed, and despaired of God on the cross, crying out 'why he had been forsaken'.
I told you, use his freewill and rely on God.
Ok so man sinned from the time of Adam pbuh til the time of Jesus pbuh, and continued sinning. What am I missing?
So why does God create imperfect physical beings according to Christianity? I can't see how you can detach yourself from this reality.
The rich are given money and wealth as a test. Will they be grateful to God, and use some of that wealth to help the poor and spend it in God's cause, help build a house or worship, spreading God's message etc or will they arrogantly think they themselves made the wealth by themselves and not give thanks? If the latter, then this World is their reward, and they will be held accountable when they return to God.
???
Who has ever said it is unforgivable? Certainly I have never said it. Au contraire, I said forgiveness came at the same time through blood covenant and the promise of the Messiah.
Are you really asking?
You will have to expand on this one.
Are we talking about what Jesus said? Or what people say? Why is there many division of beliefs in the Muslim community and different versions of the Koran? Why are they killing each other? Is it what Mohammad said or is it what the Imans say?
No...
God spoke through the prophet Jeremiah and said it this way:
"31 “The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, ” declares the LORD.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people."
A New Covenant means the old one will pass away.
That is why I asked "Are you really asking"? Here you are saying that you have already made up your mind regardless of the answers.
My spirit which has communion with The Spirit says He did.
Yes... that is the question... Is what Jesus said what Jesus said. Was it confirmed when Paul also said it. Was it what was typified in all of the sacrifices that God told Moses to do.
LOL... not really. There are many types and shadows. The ram was caught it a bush of thorns by his head. Jesus had a crown of thorns on His head. The ram was innocent and placed in the stead of Abraham's son. Jesus was placed in the stead of us.
ABSOLUTELY... but Jesus said (pbuh)"no greater love hath a man than he give his life for another"... and again, "no man takes my life, I give it freely"
Not really. You just quoted history as fact and tens of thousands believed in the cross. Why did you just contradict yourself?
Last edited:
You might have to start another thread for that one.
Where is this mentioned by anyone in the NT?
Because your answer will not stand up to scrutiny.
Was Church Father Ignatius reliable? Can you tell me when he was writing?
The sacrifices in the OT were completely destroyed on the altar. They were to be presented blemish free, no broken legs, no bruising.
The crown had 'King of the Jews' written on it. Jesus pbuh was rejected as the expected Messiah, for he did not fulfil any of the things he was expected to do.
I quoted the Christian understanding of History. We will see how reliable John, your spirit and the NT is when you have responded to this post, then you can see if I'm contradicting myself.
Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
Hebrews 8:
6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
8 But God found fault with the people and said : “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
There are other references
.
Proverbs 18:13 To answer before listening— that is folly and shame.
I quote the Bible... it is more reliable
They found no sin in Jesus under scrutiny and when they went to break his legs... they didn't because he had passed away already. In fact, the whole of the process correlates to Jesus.
As was prophesied.
I have responded... and you did contradict yourself--you used the history to support one position and then turned around and said that the history is wrong. Can't be both.
Last edited:
anonymous9887
bible reader
Jesus again does as the father commanded him to do
1. the money changers- If you remember the scripture "the zeal for your house will consume me"
2. he was reassuring his mother, and this was after his baptism after he had received holy spirit and memory of himself in heaven with the father came to him. Jesus had already come out as the Messiah, So Jesus was speaking as the messiah.
3. His disciples were the ones his father had given him to care for and teach, and even says those that do the will of my father are my brother my sister and my mother
These were all fulfilled prophecies by Jesus, No sin was committed, except doing what the father sent him to do. Also read the addiths and Koran, and you will see that Jesus committed no sin.
I can go on and on those examples, if you want stick to one example, but I see no sin in those passages.
Yes but why would god put someone incapable of being obedient in charge of mankind? It doesnt make sense, because even if he chose to rely on god, god created him incapable of fulfilling his commands.
I'm sure that's very nice, but it just doesn't seem to actually mean anything! It doesn't seem to provide the slightest guidance for the million experiences, choices, dangers and temptations faced by every single human, every single day.
Agree with you on the last bit, though.
anonymous9887
bible reader
1. God created Adam perfect, and like you said he was in charge as a messenger of god, and it was all up to Adam to remain faithful along with his wife. Were they as perfect human beings and no sinful tendencies going to obey god or Satan. God's right to rule is at stake here, there is more involved than you think.
If you would like check this chapter out, and it gives you a very reasonable explanation for why all this is going on.
Why Does God Allow Suffering?—The Reason Why Suffering Began | Bible Teach
Yes Paul cites it in Hebrews 8.....
Why has he twisted the text when Jeremiah 31:32 reads:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
A husband remains loyal as referenced in other places of Jeremiah, yet Paul is talking divorce by altering the text.
You mean you can smell trouble.
Ignatius (35 – 107) was the bishop of Antioch. In the year 107 (or 108) he was arrested by the Romans and subsequently taken away to Rome. In between his incarceration and his death in around 107 (or 108), Ignatius wrote a series of letters in which he attacked other Christian groups as a result of them holding on to beliefs which were contrary to his own. In Ignatius’s letters, there is often verbal battles against other Judaic-Christian and Christian groups which held contrary beliefs to his own, as mentioned. One letter which caught my eye was the following:
“7 Some there may be who wanted in a human way to mislead me, but the Spirit is not misled, seeing it comes from God. For “it knows whence it comes and whither it goes,”250 110 and exposes what is secret.251 When I was with you I cried out, raising my voice—it was God’s voice252—”pay heed to the Bishop, the Presbytery, and the deacons.” 2 Some, it is true, suspected that I spoke thus because I had been told in advance that some of you were schismatics. But I swear by Him for whose cause I am a prisoner, that from no human channels did I learn this. It was the Spirit that kept on preaching in these words: “Do nothing apart from the bishop; keep your bodies as if they were God’s temple; value unity; flee schism; imitate Jesus Christ as he imitated his Father.”
8 I, then, was doing all I could, as a man utterly devoted to unity. Where there is schism and bad feeling, God has no place. The Lord forgives all who repent—if, that is, their repentance brings them into God’s unity and to the bishop’s council. I put my confidence in the grace of Jesus Christ. He will release you from all your chains.253
2 I urge you, do not do things in cliques, but act as Christ’s disciples. When I heard some people saying, “IF I DON’T FIND IT IN THE ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS, I DON’T BELIEVE IT IN THE GOSPEL,” I answered them, “But it is written there.” They retorted, “That’s just the question.”254 To my mind it is Jesus Christ who is the original documents. The inviolable archives are his CROSS AND DEATH AND HIS RESURRECTION AND THE FAITH THAT CAME BY HIM. It is by these things and through your prayers that I want to be justified. (Early Christian Fathers [Grand Rapids, MI: Christian Classics Ethereal Library] by Richardson, Cyril C. (1909-1976), page 96)
Early Christian Fathers - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
This group is arguing that if what Ignatius believes in is not found in the “original documents”, they will not believe the gospel which Ignatius basis his faith on. Ignatius responds by saying that it is there in the document(s), and they respond by stating that,
“it is not written there”.
So what exactly was this group in disagreement with in this instance? Few lines down Ignatius tells us the reason and this is Jesus’s,
“Cross and death, and his resurrection…”
This was the debate. The point of contention here is the reality of Jesus’s crucifixion and resurrection not being mentioned in their original, and authentic document(s). Here the text suggests to us that what Ignatius had in his possession or believed in was the corrupted gospel, whereas what they had were the originals. The above discussion reveals that this group and Ignatius stood right at the opposite of the Christian theological spectrum. The group Ignatius is countering in this instance are of Judaic-Christian or fully Christian. The language used by Ignatius against this group suggests very likely that they were Christian, but they only rejected the crucifixion as a result of it not being in their own present manuscript (“documents”). The sayings,
“pay heed to the Bishop, the Presbytery, and the Deacons”,
And:
“Do nothing apart from the bishop; keep your bodies as if they were God’s temple; value unity; flee schism; imitate Jesus Christ as he imitated his Father”
And:
“act as Christ’s disciples”
These are not words used for heretics or fully Judaic group(s). This is a language employed only to his own Christian brothers, a group who were Christian but disagreed with him massively on the evidence of Jesus’s crucifixion.
Clearly there were early First Century followers of Jesus pbuh who did not accept crucifixion as actually happening. How big a group were they?
Big enough for Paul, the twister of scripture to write:
1 cor 15
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
If you read the whole of 1 cor 15, Paul is clearly promoting his own Gospel, and is worried by what people are hearing. It's likely these other Christians were aware the family of Jesus pbuh and his earliest followers knew people were trying to turn the Jewish son of God into Greco-Roman Son of God.
Dead in 6 hrs? A record for crucifixion especially with no broken legs. Why wasn't he stoned as is the punishment under Jewish Law for blasphemy?
According to your traditions, when he rose, could he be physically harmed again?
Where?
I was laying the groundwork, and as shown there are cracks showing in the story of the crucifixion.
Bird123
Well-Known Member
That God isn't at a Higher Level. That God is like mankind and goes the easy route. All the kiddies must be fixed or what does that say about God? You have become convinced that stubborn people can not be changed. I find that not true for one willing to do what it takes along with enough time.
Bird123
Well-Known Member
There are different students who need to learn those problems. Still things do move forward slowly.
Bird123
Well-Known Member
Well I guess destruction is better than living in a fiery pit for eternity. On the other hand, destruction is just an excuse not to rise to a Higher Level and do the Right thing-----Fix all the kids.