Will God save the world or a few?

Moses the God Archetype* · Jul 15, 2006

Mike182 said:
i voted "God can't save all because of mans freewill"

there are some truely evil people who will not attain salvation, but that is because they are evil peopel.

i do not think someone will be damned or condemned for not believing in Jesus Christ, or for not believing in any other prophey, or for not believing in God at all.
If God is present in everything, it matters not if i accept him, because he is inevitable - so if God exists, only my actions can count, and if God does not exist, i'm not going anywhere special anyway

Very well put mike182.

Green Gaia · Jul 15, 2006

So I guess that means that those who never had the opportunity to read, believe and follow the Bible will be bound to spend an eternity in hell. Is that what you are saying?

Christiangirl0909 said:
YES!!!!! That is exactly what I'm saying.

I grew up attending a church of Christ and was taught the same as you: "Anyone who doesn't follow the Bible as our church does, are going to burn forever in Hell." But it wasn't until I was about 10 that I really realized what that meant. So I asked the Sunday school teacher, "My grandmother is a Christian, but she attends a different church, (a Christian church that allowed instrumental music to be played). Is she going to Hell too?" The teacher quite calmly answered, "Yes, she is going to Hell with all the other sinners." I was quite shocked. I've never known, even to this day, a person more dedicated and in love with their faith and Jesus than my grandmother. She's in her 80's now and still volunteers to help the in community, gives her time and energy to doing what she believes Jesus calls her to do: help others. Whenever I go over to her house, on her dining room table is at least 2 or 3 copies of the Bible, study guides and notes she's taken. She still reads and studies her Bible everyday.

Now, I tell you all this because it was this incident that made me seriously start to question the things that were being taught to me at that church. How could the loving, compassionate God that I knew, that watched over me and loved me, condemn a good Christian woman like my grandmother simply because she went to the wrong church? How could a loving, compassionate God condemn ANY good person who had tried to live a good life, simply because they were in the wrong religion, or wrong part of the world? It didn't make sense to me, and it still doesn't. My questions just grew and grew and I was never given any satisfactory answers ("just have faith and believe") that is when I was brave enough to ask at all, because questioning was not encouraged and if you questioned that meant you didn't have enough faith. Long story short, my parents decided to leave that church about 4 years later.

My beliefs have gone through some major changes from what I was taught as a child. I no longer think hell is a literal place, and quite regularly question even the existence of a deity at all. But I still cannot conceive of a loving God that would condemn good people of any belief.

sandy whitelinger · Jul 15, 2006

Truth101 said:
Wasn't Jesus condemned also? Do you always load assumptions of on words such as "condemned"?

Again, you need to take the whole Bible into consideration. Perhaps the word perish helps to undestand this as in, "God so loved the world that that He sent His only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." Notice that everlasting life is in juxtaposition to perish.

Truth101 said:

If one is condemned does this automatically eliminate any future reconciliation?

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The reconciliation comes through the atoning work of Christ.

Truth101 said:

You must believe that this word condemned instantly means unsaved destined for the gas chamber. Parish, condemned, etc do not carry with them any reason to assume hopless destruction. Does the passage say what their condemnation is? No.

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Yes! From John 3:19, "And this is the condemnation, that light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

Truth101 said:

Are you reading into the passage something that isn't stated? All the text surrounding this text imply reconciliation of these lost but you see this one part and believe this piece of scrpiture refutes all passages surrounding it. It is you who has not taken all scipture into account not I.?

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This is not the only passage yet it is enough to suffice. You just refuse them.

Truth101 said:
Then you say that it is NOT THE WILL of the Father that any should parish, and you add a big "BUT" to that. Do you think that Gods will is merely a weak wish?

God does not interfere with man's choice to accept Him or reject Him.

Truth101 said:
1Co 3:13

Truth101 said:
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day(the day of judgment) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This makes it pretty clear what their condemnation is.

Again, you fail to take the whole counsel into consideration. Why leave out verse 11 and 12? "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation..." Clearly the following verses refer to those who have accepted Christ.

Lets just see what all this says about your God.

Truth101 said:
1: He is either incapable or unwilling to save all.

As I said before, God does not interfere with the choice of man to reject or accept Him yet has set up consequences for both choices.

Truth101 said:
2: Your god's will is in subjection to mans will.

As I said before, God does not interfere with the choice of man to reject or accept Him yet has set up consequences for both choices.

Truth101 said:
3: Mans will is stronger than the will of your god.

As I said before, God does not interfere with the choice of man to reject or accept Him yet has set up consequences for both choices.

Truth101 said:
4: Your gods love ends for the unrepentant at the grave.

It is also the will of God that there be consequences for rejecting Him. Love is not the overiding force you seem to think it is. God loved His own Son yet sent Him to the grave as well.

God is also a God of Justice.

Truth101 said:
5: The grave is stronger than your god.

Jesus proved otherwise with His victory over death.

Truth101 said:
6: Instead of your god boasting to death and the grave "oh death where is thy sting? Oh grave where is thy victory?"

Again, the victory came through Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

Truth101 said:
I can go on and on all day but you get the point (I hope).

The only point I got was that you reject or misinterpret parts of scripture by taking them out of context of the whole.

Fluffy · Jul 15, 2006

Good point. I hadn't thought of it quite that way. When I mentioned that I believe Christ saves us from death, I meant that He saves us from the permanance of death. In other words, each of us will die, but because of Him we will be resurrected someday.

Hmmm I can sort of go along with that one but I would still raise a small quibble over the idea of being saved.

To illustate this, we would find it weird if somebody said "God saved me from my 18th birthday party in which I was having the time of my life". This is still using the term "save" correctly but the implication normally associated with it is that we are being saved from something negative whereas in this situation, we are being saved from something positive.

However, there appears to be no justification as of yet as to why death is a negative thing. Perhaps it is a neutral or positive state? Either way, it still seems like "save" is brings associations with it that would only be accurate if death were a negative state.

Again, you need to take the whole Bible into consideration. Perhaps the word perish helps to undestand this as in, "God so loved the world that that He sent His only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." Notice that everlasting life is in juxtaposition to perish.

Why was this an expression of love when God was already making such a deal before Christ perished?

Katzpur · Jul 15, 2006

Fluffy said:
Hmmm I can sort of go along with that one but I would still raise a small quibble over the idea of being saved.

To illustate this, we would find it weird if somebody said "God saved me from my 18th birthday party in which I was having the time of my life". This is still using the term "save" correctly but the implication normally associated with it is that we are being saved from something negative whereas in this situation, we are being saved from something positive.

So, you think that death is something positive? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Super Universe · Jul 15, 2006

Maize said:
How could the loving, compassionate God that I knew, that watched over me and loved me, condemn a good Christian woman like my grandmother simply because she went to the wrong church?

There is no wrong church. But, there is no right church either.

Green Gaia · Jul 15, 2006

Super Universe said:
There is no wrong church. But, there is no right church either.

I think there is right and wrong religions and churches for individuals. For example, UU is right for me, but I wouldn't do very well as a Roman Catholic. But that wasn't my point.

Ezzedean · Jul 15, 2006

sandy whitelinger said:
It is not the will of God that any should perish but it is the rejection of Christ that condemns.

I can agree that if you dont believe in Christ, you dont believe in God, but at the same time if you don't believe in Moses you don't believe in God, and if you don't believe in Noah you don't believe in God and if you don't believe in Abraham you don't believe in God... so are you saying that you are condemned if you dont believe in Christ as the son of God? Also, can you believe in Christ without following or believing in the other prophets?

Ezzedean · Jul 15, 2006

Maize said:
I think there is right and wrong religions and churches for individuals. For example, UU is right for me, but I wouldn't do very well as a Roman Catholic. But that wasn't my point.

I can respect your view Maize and will at all times, but may I just give you my perspective?

I believe there is one right way and a million wrong ways. We can't all be right. Just because something feels right to a certain individual it doesn't mean that it is. It may feel right for someone to go to a building, sing a song, and then have a ritual in which he and his fellow worshippers slap eachother in the face five times.... now, this might make them happy, and this might feel right to them, but we can't say that it is. There is one true way.... I can personally say that I believe in the one true way, but I can't tell you that it is the one true way.

I feel that one day we'll all be given the answer, and we'll all know the truth without any doubt, and we'll all worship the same way, pray the same way, live the same way and we'll all understand together. Now I don't believe this is going to happen anytime soon, and I also don't believe that we will live this way on Earth, but I do believe it will happen.

God will throw our ignorance in our face and make it clear to us all that was wrong and all that is right.

Peace

Radar · Jul 16, 2006

God will save nothing because there is no god.

Truth101 · Jul 16, 2006

Radar said:
God will save nothing because there is no god.

Really? Well I guess they should just shut this site down and everyone can just stop talking about it. We may as well just pack up our posts and start a big bombfire.
Very stimulating post I might add, it gives me something to ponder.

Dave

Elvendon · Jul 16, 2006

Katzpur said:
Would you explain your understanding of Theosis, please.

Our sharing in God's nature, being and presence. Not becoming Gods or God ourselves, but just being fully reconciled with, aware of and in concord with Him.

Truth101 · Jul 16, 2006

sandy whitelinger said:
Again, you need to take the whole Bible into consideration. Perhaps the word perish helps to undestand this as in, "God so loved the world that that He sent His only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." Notice that everlasting life is in juxtaposition to perish.

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Ok, Parish means death eternal eh?
Mar 4:38 And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish? (plainly die a physical death)
Mat 8:25 And his disciples came to him and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.(plainly die a physical death)
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place:for all they that take the sword shall perish withthe sword. (plainly die a physical death)
Those who experience aionios death stay dead throught the 1000 year kingdom reign and are not ressurected till after it. This is aionios death. They are to stay in death until judgment. Then they are raised. The second death is what the non believer has to go through in the fire, just as the chosen elect experience that death to self here on earth. You will not find the words aionios death or aionios life after this kingdom.
Aionios death is the wicked dead remaining dead through the kingdom age. It is an age of death not an eternity. Aionios life is life in the kingdom age.During the kingdom and following the kingdom you never see this word aionios used again in scripture. Why is that? Because this word is only used when statements are made regarding the kingdom age.

Yes! From John 3:19, "And this is the condemnation, that light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

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It says that their condemnation is to not know the light (truth) So they remain in darkness (ignorance), not eternal death. You say I do not take all of scripture into context and then you continue to add to the scriptures.

This is not the only passage yet it is enough to suffice. You just refuse them.

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Now you accuse me of refusing scripture when you yourself instead of addressing the scriptures I use, you come up with another scripture which you believe contradicts the scriptures I have used. You attempt to make scriptures contradict scriptures. What kind of scholarship is that.

Again, you fail to take the whole counsel into consideration. Why leave out verse 11 and 12? "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation..." Clearly the following verses refer to those who have accepted Christ.

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Lets look at verse 10 as well.
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. Christ has laid the foundation and no other foundation can any man lay than the one that has already been laid. The wicked lost do not have their own seperate foundation. All mankind whether believer or not are judged according to what they have done in their lives. Some have established good works and some have established none. Do you seriously think that any one believer has never done a thing God could call good works? Nonsense the very fact they beleive causes them to live Even a little more Godly. This is obviously speaking of every person who ever lived. This is a TRIAL by fire. A trial is held for those who are accused of something. Gods elect Have already overcome, so why the trial?
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble
1Co 3:13 Every man's work (what part of "every man" do you not understand?) shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work (how many times will it have to be repeated before YOU recieve it? And you say I refuse scripture.)of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (how many of these fires do you know of in scripture?

As I said before, God does not interfere with the choice of man to reject or accept Him yet has set up consequences for both choices.

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Lets see your scriptural evidence that God does not interfere with mans choice to reject Him or accept Him. There are consequenses and rewards but the consequences are not eternal. But back to your claim that God does not interfere with the choice either way. You have just contradicted many passages of scripture that you have probably read a million times but never related it to your belief here. Please give me those scriptures.

It is also the will of God that there be consequences for rejecting Him. Love is not the overiding force you seem to think it is. God loved His own Son yet sent Him to the grave as well.

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Yes and then raised Him again to glory. Theres a difference between God sending Jesus to the GRAVE and sending Him to an eternal fire. All this was done in LOVE.

Jesus proved otherwise with His victory over death.

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Ok if your version of Christs victory is saving a few and losing billions and billions to death and the grave than you have silly concept of victory. Victory is decided in the end when two or more opponents have examined the end result of their race. Here anyone with the ability to put their shoes on the right feet could see that death and the grave have taken the victory if billions upon billion of souls remain the victims of death.

Again, the victory came through Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

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You must also believe that when a man dies without confessing Christ then he is lost to this fire pit as well. Well remember, Jesus went beyond the grave to raise the dead. Also remember that He did this BEFORE He died and took the keys of death. How much MORE power over death and the grave do you think He gained through that? Its a rediculous theory (completely unscriptural) to suggest a man will have no hope after death. That Christ is all of a sudden powerless against that which He has overcome.

The only point I got was that you reject or misinterpret parts of scripture by taking them out of context of the whole.

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You speak out of line. This is exactly what you have done, especially concerning Gods never interfering with mans choice to accept or reject Christ.[/quote]
We should address the subject of mans free choice being exempt from Gods intervening next.God Bless, Dave

may · Jul 16, 2006

Jehovah is guarding all those loving him,

But all the wicked ones he will annihilate. psalm 145;20
(Psalm 1:6) For Jehovah is taking knowledge of the way of righteous ones, But the very way of wicked ones will perish.
(Proverbs 2:22) As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it............ nothing about hellfire mentioned here.
That eternal life is possible is shown by these words: "Furthermore, this is the promised thing which he himself promised us, the life everlasting." (1 John 2:25) for those who want it there is a promise of life everlasting. but some dont want it . free will coming into play .
Salvation from death is a gift from God to those that obey him, not to those that disobey. some dont want it, that is there choice.
A person cannot expect Gods favor when he refuses to exercise faith in the Father as a Savior and in the One whom the Father sent to make salvation possible. its all about freewill , we can have everlasting life ,or we can have everlasting death . the bible does not teach torture. that is a manmade doctrine not based on accurate bible teaching. life or death, our choice.

Truth101 · Jul 16, 2006

may said:
Jehovah is guarding all those loving him,

But all the wicked ones he will annihilate. psalm 145;20

(Psalm 1:6) For Jehovah is taking knowledge of the way of righteous ones, But the very way of wicked ones will perish.

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Although I appreciate JW's for their attempt to at least give God some sense of humane judgment since they believe that God will annihilate the wicked rather than torture then forever the problem still remains that God fails at His measily attempt to have HIS will done in the earth. This passage is merely saying that wicked man will be killed (physically) seperated by death from the righteous on the earth. Not annihilated forever. Your next quote of scripture bares this out.

(Proverbs 2:22) As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it............ nothing about hellfire mentioned here.

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It says they will be cut off from THE EARTH. They will be cut off from IT (the earth). And no, no mention of hellfire.

That eternal life is possible is shown by these words: "Furthermore, this is the promised thing which he himself promised us, the life everlasting." (1 John 2:25) for those who want it there is a promise of life everlasting. but some dont want it . free will coming into play .

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There is a promise of aionios (age lasting life in the kingdom for 1000 years) life to those that overcome. Freewill has absolutely nothing to do with man period. Man in capable of making choices but they are not free from outside influence to make those choices. Every choice man makes is the result of outside influences causing those choises in the first place. What does God say about those who accept Him as Savior? "You have not chosen me but, I have chose you", "There is none that seeketh after God", "No man can come to the Father lest the spirit draw him", etc, etc, etc. Where does freewill ever come into these scriptures? Truth= freewill is absoluelty absence from mans choices. A unilateral gift requiring nothing at all from the reciever. Lest you should boast. Its all Christ brother.

Salvation from death is a gift from God to those that obey him, not to those that disobey. some dont want it, that is there choice.

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Salvation from death is a FREE gift from God to all mankind. Admittmance into the kingdom is not a free gift however, it requires complete obedience and submission to the will of the Father through Christ, to die to self and take up your cross.

A person cannot expect Gods favor when he refuses to exercise faith in the Father as a Savior and in the One whom the Father sent to make salvation possible. its all about freewill , we can have everlasting life ,or we can have everlasting death . the bible does not teach torture. that is a manmade doctrine not based on accurate bible teaching. life or death, our choice.

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I have already covered this. I will attempt to clarify more. Salvation is not the same thing as aionios life. Salvation simply defined means "healing" spiritual cleansing if you will, the promise of a ressurection. Aionios life is a promise of life in the kingdom for 1000years (not eternity). Those who recieve aionios death remain just that, dead through these 1000 years while the rest enjoy their reward. I will start a thread on this blasphemous "freewill" nonsense soon.

God Bless, Dave

blueman · Jul 16, 2006

It is God's permissive will that all be saved, but all won't because of a free will decision to reject Christ. God's permissive will is different from His Sovereign will which means whatever He carry's out as His purpose will come to pass.

Truth101 · Jul 16, 2006

blueman said:
It is God's permissive will that all be saved, but all won't because of a free will decision to reject Christ. God's permissive will is different from His Sovereign will which means whatever He carry's out as His purpose will come to pass.

Now God has 2 wills? Wow you will have to outline these for me in scripture as I only discuss the scriptures not opinions. Thanks

Dave

Ody · Jul 16, 2006

G-d doesn't have an ego

Alteast one that is hurt soooo bad, that he sends you to an eternity of hell for not believing in him. What a base G-d that would make

Mystic-als · Jul 17, 2006

Well said Alan. It does boil down to how we see God. Except for Athiests obviously. They have it easy.

may · Jul 17, 2006

Truth101 said:
may said:

Although I appreciate JW's for their attempt to at least give God some sense of humane judgment since they believe that God will annihilate the wicked rather than torture then forever the problem still remains that God fails at His measily attempt to have HIS will done in the earth. This passage is merely saying that wicked man will be killed (physically) seperated by death from the righteous on the earth. Not annihilated forever. Your next quote of scripture bares this out.

It says they will be cut off from THE EARTH. They will be cut off from IT (the earth). And no, no mention of hellfire.

There is a promise of aionios (age lasting life in the kingdom for 1000 years) life to those that overcome. Freewill has absolutely nothing to do with man period. Man in capable of making choices but they are not free from outside influence to make those choices. Every choice man makes is the result of outside influences causing those choises in the first place. What does God say about those who accept Him as Savior? "You have not chosen me but, I have chose you", "There is none that seeketh after God", "No man can come to the Father lest the spirit draw him", etc, etc, etc. Where does freewill ever come into these scriptures? Truth= freewill is absoluelty absence from mans choices. A unilateral gift requiring nothing at all from the reciever. Lest you should boast. Its all Christ brother.

Salvation from death is a FREE gift from God to all mankind. Admittmance into the kingdom is not a free gift however, it requires complete obedience and submission to the will of the Father through Christ, to die to self and take up your cross.

I have already covered this. I will attempt to clarify more. Salvation is not the same thing as aionios life. Salvation simply defined means "healing" spiritual cleansing if you will, the promise of a ressurection. Aionios life is a promise of life in the kingdom for 1000years (not eternity). Those who recieve aionios death remain just that, dead through these 1000 years while the rest enjoy their reward. I will start a thread on this blasphemous "freewill" nonsense soon.

God Bless, Dave

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for me i can see that Gods purpose for the earth is working out just as God planned. its all happening in this time of the end . the heavenly kingdom goverment is now well established inline with bible prophecy and chronology ,and Jesus was made king of that goverment in 1914 in the heavens . and very shortly now that kingdom will bring peace to the earth. as Daniel 2;44 tells us.And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite; Daniel 2;44 but are we willing to recognize the king that Jehovah God has put on the throne of his Heavenly kingdom. because this is the only way to peace on the earth . so its all happening in this time of the end , the END of manmade goverments is just around the corner. putting ourselves on the side of Gods heavenly kingdom goverment is the way to go , as it leads to everlasting life on a paradise earth. bring it on i say.
Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth matthew 6;9-10 yes the kingdom is now well established in the heavens , and it will take place on the earth also .whatever Jehovah says will come to pass will happen ,
"Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, . . . but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance."2 Pet. 3:9.

Will God save the world or a few?

Will God save all mankind?

Yes, definitely everyone

No, only a few

My paster says he doesnt know so neither do I

God can't save all because of mans freewill

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