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holy spirit

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
If you are a believer, you still probably do not understand things as I do. There is the general Holy Spirit of God which has always been operating by his will. This seems to be God's means of getting his will carried out in the spirit realm and in the physical realm:
Gen 1: 2 And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
1 Samuel 10:10 . . .at once the spirit of God became operative upon him, and he began to speak as a prophet in the middle of them.
Job 33:4 . . .God’s own spirit made me, And the Almighty’s own breath proceeded to bring me to life. . .​
This general God's spirit can be understood to be an integral part of him, just like our hands and feet and eyes, etc. are part of our bodies. In that sense, if this is correct, it does not have a gender separate from God.
Christ holy spirit
Jesus told his followers that if he didn't die, that his spirit could not be sent to them, that which is known as the Helper, the Advocate, the Teacher, the Comforter, and perhaps more names I forget momentarily.
John 7:39 However, he said this concerning the spirit which those who put faith in him were about to receive; for as yet there was no spirit, because Jesus had not yet been glorified. . .
John 16:7, "Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the (1) Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you.(1) Or Advocate ; Or Helper ; Gr Paraclete ) (ASV)​
We were told that this Helper, Advocate, Teacher, Comforter - is personified, called he. We are told that this Christ's spirit is sent by God in the name of Christ; thus, it is Christ's by being bequeathed to Christ by God, by God sending it out in Christ's name.
John 14:25-26, `These things I have spoken to you, remaining with you, 26and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and remind you of all things that I said to you. (YLT)​
Since this Advocate, Teacher is personified as 'he' - that is what I understand. It is Christ's spirit sent out to his disciples to teach them, to help them.
Rom 8: 9 . . .But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.​
As you can see, the subject is more complex than a first look makes one believe.
....................

I find the subject more complex because of English grammar rules and clergy teachings.
In Greek grammar rules masculine gender is used for neuter words such as 'it' and 'itself' spoken as he or him.
God's spirit (Psalms 104:30) is neuter as the word " it " found at Numbers 11:17; Numbers 11:25.
Older King James versions also used the neuter word " itself " found at Romans 8:16 and Romans 8:26.
So, just as we might refer to a ship as a 'she ' the ship still remains a neuter ' it '.
God did Not pour out a person according to Proverbs 1:23 but His spirit upon those of Acts of the Apostles 2:17-18
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
If God's spirit is only in heaven then how could God pour out His spirit according to Acts of the Apostles 2:4; Proverbs 1:23

Paul got it wrong. He got a lot of things wrong. He said Jesus is our brother and then he contradicted himself and said salvation is not possible without Jesus. How can you be a brother when your brothers are saved because of You? Why can't any one of us (brothers of Jesus) die for everyone's salvation. There are more inconsistences in Paul's writing, but those are the most outrageous. Apparently, there are not many really good Bible scholars out there. Sorry, I have a gift for critiquing theory. As for Proverbs 1:23, it refers to the Lord God. Of course, God can pour out His heart to you, but no man has the power or the ability to do the same. Men are not gods, although there is a lot of pretense among men to be gods.

Furthermore, because Jesus was God, and not the son of God, most of Paul's theology is in error. I know, I can't prove that, but neither can you prove Jesus was the son of God. Here, we go back to historical documents. Read Mack's The Lost Gospel Q, and The Missing Gospels by Darrel L. Bock, PH.D., as an example, and discover Jesus was not regarded as the son of God until about 50 to 70 years after his death. The Jesus son of God story was made up by Jesus movement leaders. I know you won't agree, but I also know you have no historical documents to refute what I have proposed. I have conducted a lot of Bible research. It is unfortunate, most Christians don't do research.

Based on history and the ugliness of human acts, it is difficult to believe God's spirit is in the world. God's spirit is with God, not humans.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Paul got it wrong. He got a lot of things wrong. He said Jesus is our brother and then he contradicted himself and said salvation is not possible without Jesus. How can you be a brother when your brothers are saved because of You? Why can't any one of us (brothers of Jesus) die for everyone's salvation................................
Based on history and the ugliness of human acts, it is difficult to believe God's spirit is in the world. God's spirit is with God, not humans.

None of Jesus' brothers (Matthew 25:40) are sinless. Only sinless Jesus could be our ransom - Matthew 20:28.

Yes, I agree, since Cain and Abel mankind's history is ugly.
God's spirit is in the world if the world wishes to cultivate the fruitage of God's spirit as listed at Galatians 5:22-23.
The world refuses to apply the Golden Rule. The world refuses to apply Jesus' New commandment to have self-sacrificing love for others as he has as mentioned at John 13:34-35.
God's inspired Word (Bible) is with us humans here on Earth. Humans refuse to listen to God's Word.
That is why Jesus said MANY would prove false at Matthew chapter 7.
Only some people search or research the Scriptures daily as the people of Acts of the Apostles 17:11 did.
That does Not make the Bible's words as wrong, but makes the people doing ugly human acts as wrong.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
If God's spirit is only in heaven then how could God pour out His spirit according to Acts of the Apostles 2:4; Proverbs 1:23
I guess you have to have faith in the inerrancy of the Bible. I don't. Men don't have the power of the holy spirit. Again, the holy spirit is with God, not men.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I guess you have to have faith in the inerrancy of the Bible. I don't. Men don't have the power of the holy spirit. Again, the holy spirit is with God, not men.

I give up, what Scripture says the ^ above ^ .
Any comments on Joel 2:29; Acts of the Apostles 2:17
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
I give up, what Scripture says the ^ above ^ .
Any comments on Joel 2:29; Acts of the Apostles 2:17
It is interesting, in the OT it is a promise of God pouring out His spirit. In the NT, men assume to have power to do it. We don't know, maybe it never happened in OT times because they didn't obey God's commandments. As for the NT, a lot is assumed for men to have the power.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
I find the subject more complex because of English grammar rules and clergy teachings.
In Greek grammar rules masculine gender is used for neuter words such as 'it' and 'itself' spoken as he or him.
God's spirit (Psalms 104:30) is neuter as the word " it " found at Numbers 11:17; Numbers 11:25.
Older King James versions also used the neuter word " itself " found at Romans 8:16 and Romans 8:26.
So, just as we might refer to a ship as a 'she ' the ship still remains a neuter ' it '.
God did Not pour out a person according to Proverbs 1:23 but His spirit upon those of Acts of the Apostles 2:17-18
You may view things as you prefer. Still, in the material I posted here for the question, it is clear that God sent out a special holy spirit in the name of Christ that is to be distinguished from God's own personal holy spirit. The scriptures say this undeniably.

If this spirit of Christ is to be taken as a person or not, I leave to up to you. However, on more than one occasion it is so very curious that we see it said, not 'God told them, or Christ told them to do so and so'; rather, it is they were directed by the holy spirit as if it itself has a person like ability to make decisions and tell the believers to do so and so.

Places where it acts as a person:
Acts 5:32 32 And we are witnesses of these matters, and so is the holy spirit, which God has given to those obeying him as ruler.”
Acts 13:2 . . .the holy spirit said: “Of all persons set Bar′na‧bas and Saul apart for me for the work to which I have called them.”
Acts 15:28 28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things . . .
Acts 16:6 . . .because they were forbidden by the holy spirit to speak the word in the [district of] Asia.

I am sure the above fulfills the indictment to where there are two or three witnesses to a thing. So, while there are further examples to this Holy Spirit acting like a person, this should be enough for this demonstration. This is why, though I personally do not care one way or another, I do care to believe as scripture tells us - and I see this Holy Spirit of Christ as a person.

I admit 100% that there are things beyond what my human mind is capable of explaining or understanding. This is why I simply accept what I see is taught in scripture.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
It is interesting, in the OT it is a promise of God pouring out His spirit. In the NT, men assume to have power to do it. We don't know, maybe it never happened in OT times because they didn't obey God's commandments. As for the NT, a lot is assumed for men to have the power.

In order for Christianity to get off to a ' flying start ', so to speak, those few Christians needed help ( power).
The best help I found would be if they could talk to people of other languages without an interpreter.
That is what is meant at Acts of the Apostles 2:4 that they were filled with God's spirit.
That same spirit that was sent by God to create according to Psalms 104:30 thus enabled those few Christians to have the power to be able to speak with foreign peoples without an interpreter present according to Acts of the Apostles 2:6-8.
That gave those few the power to spread the word quickly, and those foreign peoples then had the power so they could take the word back home with them and spread it in their home areas, thus establishing 1st-century Christianity in many areas all at the same time.
If that had never happened, I think the world would Not have found out about Christianity as quickly as it did.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
You may view things as you prefer. Still, in the material I posted here for the question, it is clear that God sent out a special holy spirit in the name of Christ that is to be distinguished from God's own personal holy spirit. The scriptures say this undeniably.
If this spirit of Christ is to be taken as a person or not, I leave to up to you. However, on more than one occasion it is so very curious that we see it said, not 'God told them, or Christ told them to do so and so'; rather, it is they were directed by the holy spirit as if it itself has a person like ability to make decisions and tell the believers to do so and so.
Places where it acts as a person:
Acts 5:32 32 And we are witnesses of these matters, and so is the holy spirit, which God has given to those obeying him as ruler.”
Acts 13:2 . . .the holy spirit said: “Of all persons set Bar′na‧bas and Saul apart for me for the work to which I have called them.”
Acts 15:28 28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things . . .
Acts 16:6 . . .because they were forbidden by the holy spirit to speak the word in the [district of] Asia.
I am sure the above fulfills the indictment to where there are two or three witnesses to a thing. So, while there are further examples to this Holy Spirit acting like a person, this should be enough for this demonstration. This is why, though I personally do not care one way or another, I do care to believe as scripture tells us - and I see this Holy Spirit of Christ as a person.
I admit 100% that there are things beyond what my human mind is capable of explaining or understanding. This is why I simply accept what I see is taught in scripture.

Thank you for your reply.
At Acts 5 there I see we do Not read: 'the' Jesus, or 'the' God, but the word ' the ' used before God's spirit.
At Acts 13 'the holy spirit said'. We can view that as we speak of something being done ' In the Name of the Law '.
The Law is Not a person but it speaks in the sense that it has power.
Acts 15 God's powerful spirit was in agreement with those present. (kind of like they had the Law on their side)
Acts 16 God's powerful holy spirit held them back from speaking at that time. ( can be operative on all )

God and Jesus are always masculine in gender, whereas God's spirit is also neuter.
For example: the neuter word "IT" is used in connection to God's spirit at Numbers 11:17; Numbers 11:25.
The older King James versions also use the neuter word "ITSELF" in connection to God' spirit at Romans 8:16,26.
So, even as we speak in English referring to a ship as a "she", still the ship remains a neuter "it".
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
In order for Christianity to get off to a ' flying start ', so to speak, those few Christians needed help ( power).
The best help I found would be if they could talk to people of other languages without an interpreter.
That is what is meant at Acts of the Apostles 2:4 that they were filled with God's spirit.
That same spirit that was sent by God to create according to Psalms 104:30 thus enabled those few Christians to have the power to be able to speak with foreign peoples without an interpreter present according to Acts of the Apostles 2:6-8.
That gave those few the power to spread the word quickly, and those foreign peoples then had the power so they could take the word back home with them and spread it in their home areas, thus establishing 1st-century Christianity in many areas all at the same time.
If that had never happened, I think the world would Not have found out about Christianity as quickly as it did.
I have no doubts about God sending His holy spirit, my doubts are about men have such authority. Again, based on human acts, there is no evidence for God's holiness in the world. You could say it promoted Christianity except now Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Now, we have holy Jihad slaughtering hundreds of innocent men, women, and children. Then, of course, we have Muslims preaching about Allah their holy god who says to kill Christians and Jews. From the evidence, it appears as if Satan has become god of our world.
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Ii have no doubts about God sending His holy spirit, my doubts are about men have such authority. Again, based on human acts, there is no evidence for God's holiness in the world. You could say it promoted Christianity except now Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Now, we have holy Jihad slaughtering hundreds of innocent men, women, and children. Then, of course, we have Muslims preaching about Allah their holy god who says to kill Christians and Jews. From the evidence, it appears as if Satan has become god of our world.

... and I find that 2 Corinthians 4:4 agrees with you that Satan is the god of this world ( of badness ).
Satan is also a dark prince if you notice at Ephesians 2:2-3.
At Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 we are forewarned that an apostasy would set in.
That is in harmony with Jesus' illustrative story about how genuine ' wheat ' Christians would grow together over the centuries with the fake ' weed/tares ' Christians until the ' harvest time '. We know a harvest comes after a long growing season. Jesus knows there are now MANY false Christians according to Matthew 7:21-23.
We are nearing the soon coming ' time of separation ' of Matthew 25:31-33,37 which will be evidence for God's holiness in this world of badness. In other words, we are in the ' last days of badness ' on Earth as described at 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13, before Jesus, as Prince of Peace will bring global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
The words from Jesus' mouth according to Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16 are 'executional words' used to rid the Earth of wickedness. The wicked will be gone forever according to Psalms 92:7; Revelation 11:18 B.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
... and I find that 2 Corinthians 4:4 agrees with you that Satan is the god of this world ( of badness ).
Satan is also a dark prince if you notice at Ephesians 2:2-3.
At Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 we are forewarned that an apostasy would set in.
That is in harmony with Jesus' illustrative story about how genuine ' wheat ' Christians would grow together over the centuries with the fake ' weed/tares ' Christians until the ' harvest time '. We know a harvest comes after a long growing season. Jesus knows there are now MANY false Christians according to Matthew 7:21-23.
We are nearing the soon coming ' time of separation ' of Matthew 25:31-33,37 which will be evidence for God's holiness in this world of badness. In other words, we are in the ' last days of badness ' on Earth as described at 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13, before Jesus, as Prince of Peace will bring global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
The words from Jesus' mouth according to Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16 are 'executional words' used to rid the Earth of wickedness. The wicked will be gone forever according to Psalms 92:7; Revelation 11:18 B.
We may be entering those last days. Satan is the adversary no one really understands. He has and will deceive many until it is over.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
We may be entering those last days. Satan is the adversary no one really understands. He has and will deceive many until it is over.

Entering the last days of badness on Earth, or rather entering the soon coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth as described at Matthew 25:31-33,37.
 
Holy spirit spreads God's goodness? I would like to remind people who read the bible that the only good part of the god trinity was Jesus. God was vengeful, full of wrath and terrorized those who believed in him most. Even Jesus who was supposedly sent to die for humanity had to beg god while he was on the cross to forgive humanity. And this is why I believe Jesus is so important to Christians. If you remove the gospels from the bible. You are left with nothing but a trail of death and destruction leading to the end of the world. Btw I would like know if god loves life so much why does he constantly destroy? Satan never killed anyone in the bible why do you hate him so much for giving humanity the gift of knowledge.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Thank you for your reply.
At Acts 5 there I see we do Not read: 'the' Jesus, or 'the' God, but the word ' the ' used before God's spirit.
At Acts 13 'the holy spirit said'. We can view that as we speak of something being done ' In the Name of the Law '.
The Law is Not a person but it speaks in the sense that it has power.
Acts 15 God's powerful spirit was in agreement with those present. (kind of like they had the Law on their side)
Acts 16 God's powerful holy spirit held them back from speaking at that time. ( can be operative on all )

God and Jesus are always masculine in gender, whereas God's spirit is also neuter.
For example: the neuter word "IT" is used in connection to God's spirit at Numbers 11:17; Numbers 11:25.
The older King James versions also use the neuter word "ITSELF" in connection to God' spirit at Romans 8:16,26.
So, even as we speak in English referring to a ship as a "she", still the ship remains a neuter "it".
You don't have to accept my way of understanding things.
For the sake of giving you more here are a few more instances:
Acts 20:27-28 . . .. 28 Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed YOU overseers. . .
(Why doesn't it say God or Christ appointed these overseers? I find this odd, unless the HS of Christ is a person)
Acts 21:11 . . .“Thus says the holy spirit, ‘The man to whom this girdle belongs the Jews will bind in this manner in Jerusalem and deliver into the hands of people of the nations. . .
Acts 28:25 . . .“The holy spirit aptly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to YOUR forefathers,
Ephesians 4:30 . . .do not be grieving God’s holy spirit. . .
(You cannot grieve something that isn't a person; of course, here I speak as if I understand what is beyond me)
Hebrews 3:7 7 For this reason, just as the holy spirit says. . .
Hebrews 9:7-8 . . .. 8 Thus the holy spirit makes it plain. . .
------
If you read it otherwise than I - that is perfectly fine. I just cannot see the holy spirit as a non person though I was taught differently as a child. I admit, God's little finger (if he has one) contains more intelligence than I have. Thus if the HS is not a person, then it could still have individual intelligence. Perhaps this is the time for me to pray for understanding and wisdom. I admit my limitation in this. I can only read and try to understand what I read.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
You don't have to accept my way of understanding things.
------
If you read it otherwise than I - that is perfectly fine. I just cannot see the holy spirit as a non person though I was taught differently as a child. I admit, God's little finger (if he has one) contains more intelligence than I have. Thus if the HS is not a person, then it could still have individual intelligence. Perhaps this is the time for me to pray for understanding and wisdom. I admit my limitation in this. I can only read and try to understand what I read.

Your ^ above ^ mention of 'God's little finger' reminds me of the Scripture found at Luke 11:20 ' the finger of God '.
I find Luke connects Luke 11:13 B with Luke 11:20 that the ' finger of God ' is the same as the ' spirit of God '.
That seems to connect to Matthew 12:28 saying the spirit of God.
God's finger I find is Not a new Christian Scripture thought, but goes way back to the time of Exodus 31:18 B.
Isaiah 63:11 makes reference to Moses, and how Could Moses have a person within him.

Years back KJV and others used holy ghost instead of spirit, and that gave people the idea of ghost person.
Noah Webster replaced ghost with spirit because God's spirit is Not an apparition.
For example: Isaiah 44:3 where the Bible compares God's spirit to water.
God pours out his spirit. When God poured out His spirit at Acts the people were filled with God's spirit.
If a person, how could people be filled with a person, and how can a person be poured out.
I don't think anyone thinks the 'spirit of wisdom' mentioned at Exodus 28:3 is a person.
We don't hear anyone saying the 'ghost of wisdom' even if the same word is used.
The widow's son was filled with wisdom, etc. and Not filled with a person at 1 Kings 7:14.
So, to me the neuter word "it" used in connection to God's spirit at Numbers 11:17,25 is accurate.
God giving His good spirit to teach or instruct as mentioned at Nehemiah 9:20 I find is showing God's power to accomplish something. Like a power grid's power would be sending out power to accomplish something.
So, then I would be willing to say that God's finger is Not so little after all.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Your ^ above ^ mention of 'God's little finger' reminds me of the Scripture found at Luke 11:20 ' the finger of God '.
I find Luke connects Luke 11:13 B with Luke 11:20 that the ' finger of God ' is the same as the ' spirit of God '.
That seems to connect to Matthew 12:28 saying the spirit of God.
God's finger I find is Not a new Christian Scripture thought, but goes way back to the time of Exodus 31:18 B.
Isaiah 63:11 makes reference to Moses, and how Could Moses have a person within him.

Years back KJV and others used holy ghost instead of spirit, and that gave people the idea of ghost person.
Noah Webster replaced ghost with spirit because God's spirit is Not an apparition.
For example: Isaiah 44:3 where the Bible compares God's spirit to water.
God pours out his spirit. When God poured out His spirit at Acts the people were filled with God's spirit.
If a person, how could people be filled with a person, and how can a person be poured out.
I don't think anyone thinks the 'spirit of wisdom' mentioned at Exodus 28:3 is a person.
We don't hear anyone saying the 'ghost of wisdom' even if the same word is used.
The widow's son was filled with wisdom, etc. and Not filled with a person at 1 Kings 7:14.
So, to me the neuter word "it" used in connection to God's spirit at Numbers 11:17,25 is accurate.
God giving His good spirit to teach or instruct as mentioned at Nehemiah 9:20 I find is showing God's power to accomplish something. Like a power grid's power would be sending out power to accomplish something.
So, then I would be willing to say that God's finger is Not so little after all.
I love the scriptures you provided. Thank you. What you need to realize, if you refer back to my original post perhaps, is that God's general Holy Spirit. as I for this post's purpose state/d it, I take as an integral part of God as our own body members, and I do not see this as a person.

When it comes to Christ spirit, the Helper, God separated this out from his own HS, and sent it out in Christ's name. It was given an individuality, so to say. This is the one that I see operating as an individual. Each Saint received this spirit, this Helper, this Teacher.

If you consider Col 1:19: "...for in him all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell. . ." (Darby) - you have the same problem - namely, that in Christ the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily. What exactly that means that the 'Godhead dwells bodily' in Christ - is to me the same problem with the spirit of Christ. We are told that the Saints shall always, forever, have this Spirit of Christ with them.

As we also see, holy Christians is the temple of God in which God's spirit dwells - so that holy Christians have God's spirit dwelling in them. I have found in my life that the spirit of Christ teaches me things and put things I need to consider scripturally in front of my eyes. Christ spirit knows fully both what I think about and what scriptures this need.

My only agenda here is to go with what scripture indicates to me. I think the Helper is being shown as an individual. If you think the Helper is an it - that is fine with me. Still, 'it' has been separated from the general HS in purpose.

You seem to have a very good background in scriptures. That is fine to see.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I love the scriptures you provided. Thank you. What you need to realize, if you refer back to my original post perhaps, is that God's general Holy Spirit. as I for this post's purpose state/d it, I take as an integral part of God as our own body members, and I do not see this as a person.
When it comes to Christ spirit, the Helper, God separated this out from his own HS, and sent it out in Christ's name. It was given an individuality, so to say. This is the one that I see operating as an individual. Each Saint received this spirit, this Helper, this Teacher.
If you consider Col 1:19: "...for in him all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell. . ." (Darby) - you have the same problem - namely, that in Christ the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily. What exactly that means that the 'Godhead dwells bodily' in Christ - is to me the same problem with the spirit of Christ. We are told that the Saints shall always, forever, have this Spirit of Christ with them.
As we also see, holy Christians is the temple of God in which God's spirit dwells - so that holy Christians have God's spirit dwelling in them. I have found in my life that the spirit of Christ teaches me things and put things I need to consider scripturally in front of my eyes. Christ spirit knows fully both what I think about and what scriptures this need.
My only agenda here is to go with what scripture indicates to me. I think the Helper is being shown as an individual. If you think the Helper is an it - that is fine with me. Still, 'it' has been separated from the general HS in purpose.
You seem to have a very good background in scriptures. That is fine to see.

Speaking of dwelling, so to speak, any comments about God's spirit being in Job's nose at Job 27:3
 
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