Pagan influence on Christianity

Nakosis · Jul 6, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
Jews and Christians lived amongst Muslims and continue to do so, free to worship the One true God as they see fit.

Then little statues of the virgin Mary, the Cross and drinking the symbolic blood of God is ok?

Also then why not other folks as well? Wiccans, Druids, Nordic Pagans, Buddist etc...

Does God command war and destruction or is it people choosing not to obey God, that are causing the problems you mentioned?

God? No probably not. Just people claiming to go to war on God's behalf. The problem with folks claiming to have God's authority in the first place.

Like you said, if God spoke to you, are you going to rely on this personal message or the dictates of a self-proclaimed messenger of God whom you've never met?

Muslim-UK · Jul 6, 2017

Nakosis said:
Then little statues of the virgin Mary, the Cross and drinking the symbolic blood of God is ok?

I believe so in Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan, indonesia and some Arab states.

Nakosis said:
Also then why not other folks as well? Wiccans, Druids, Nordic Pagans, Buddist etc...

There are many Buddhists in some majority Muslim Countries, you will also find Druze around Syria/Lebanon.

Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly. Qur'an 60:8

Nakosis said:
God? No probably not. Just people claiming to go to war on God's behalf. The problem with folks claiming to have God's authority in the first place.

A recent example would be isis, but all the major Scholars labelled them misguided and not to be followed. The majority of their victims have been ordinary Muslims.

These people only give Religion a bad name.

Nakosis said:
Like you said, if God spoke to you, are you going to rely on this personal message or the dictates of a self-proclaimed messenger of God whom you've never met?

I guarantee if you study the man's life from authentic sources, written by Western Scholars, you will have no doubt he was 100% sincere and was a true Prophet of God.

Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum – The Sealed Nectar (Biography Of The Prophet)

Islam is nothing new, you can find mention of the Kaaba, Mecca and Islam in the Torah.

Nakosis · Jul 6, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
I believe so in Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan, indonesia and some Arab states.

There are many Buddhists in some majority Muslim Countries, you will also find Druze around Syria/Lebanon.

Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly. Qur'an 60:8

A recent example would be isis, but all the major Scholars labelled them misguided and not to be followed. The majority of their victims have been ordinary Muslims.

These people only give Religion a bad name.

I guarantee if you study the man's life from authentic sources, written by Western Scholars, you will have no doubt he was 100% sincere and was a true Prophet of God.

Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum – The Sealed Nectar (Biography Of The Prophet)

Islam is nothing new, you can find mention of the Kaaba, Mecca and Islam in the Torah.

Fine, according to you, or your religious view, folks can worship God as they see fit. Being a Muslim then is a matter of personal choice, not a requirement of God.

We should not then seek to impose our faith requirements on one another.

I feel a little put out that Rome decided my ancestors had to become Christian. You follow the teaching of Muhammad as you see fit however no one else has any requirement to do so.

As long as we go about treating each other fairly.

shunyadragon · Jul 6, 2017

The Ragin Pagan said:
No, not really. I'm no Hellenist, but this has never been brought up by any of them in either casual discussion or their rituals and worship. Your cited evidence of this is the guesswork and interpretation of scholars for their plays.

It is more than just plays, it is the culture and philosophy of Greeks expressed in plays just like all cultures. Your evading this and stone walling. I cited an academic reference from a book published by Oxford Press and it goes into more detail of this aspect of Greek culture, . . . and I will cite more.

I did not accuse you of being Hellenist, but it is Hellenist leaders, Paul and Saint Augustine in Christianity the supported inherited guilt based on Greek philosophy.

You are also neglecting the words of the philosophers that describe inherited virtues and the Fallen in their ancestors, which I will cite in future polls, which than is reflected in the plays.

For beginners:
From: Original sin - Wikipedia

"The doctrine of ancestral fault (προγονικὸν ἁμάρτημα progonikon hamartema), i.e. the sins of the forefathers leading to punishment of their descendants, was presented as a tradition of immemorial antiquity in ancient Greek religion by Celsus in his True Doctrine, a polemic attacking Christianity. Celsus is quoted as attributing to "a priest of Apollo or of Zeus" the saying that "the mills of the gods grind slowly, even to children's children, and to those who are born after them."

Augustus · Jul 7, 2017

Nakosis said:
I suppose we have to give credit to the Arab world for monotheism.

Why?

shunyadragon · Jul 7, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
Islam is nothing new, you can find mention of the Kaaba, Mecca and Islam in the Torah.

Disagree there is no mention in the Torah. There is an interpretation of prophecy for Mohammed and Islam in the Torah.

Muslim-UK · Jul 7, 2017

shunyadragon said:
Disagree there is no mention in the Torah. There is an interpretation of prophecy for Mohammed and Islam in the Torah.

I didn't mention Muhammad pbuh, though I'm sure he's likely mentioned in the Torah.

All Prophets submitted their will to ALLAH swt. In Arabic that would make their way of life ISLAM

Mecca and the Kaaba:

Blessed are those who dwell in your house; they are ever praising you. Blessed are those whose strength is in you,
whose hearts are set on pilgrimage. Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools. Psalms 84:4-6

"The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings: In it are signs manifest; (for example) the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith Allah stands not in need of any of his creatures. Qur'an, 3:96-97

Also see the video in post 133 showing Jews wear cube phylacteries on their heads and bind themselves 7 times.

shunyadragon · Jul 7, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
I didn't mention Muhammad pbuh, though I'm sure he's likely mentioned in the Torah.

All Prophets submitted their will to ALLAH swt. In Arabic that would make their way of life ISLAM

Mecca and the Kaaba:

Blessed are those who dwell in your house; they are ever praising you. Blessed are those whose strength is in you,
whose hearts are set on pilgrimage. Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools. Psalms 84:4-6

"The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings: In it are signs manifest; (for example) the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith Allah stands not in need of any of his creatures. Qur'an, 3:96-97

Also see the video in post 133 showing Jews wear cube phylacteries on their heads and bind themselves 7 times.

Highly interpretive, and still no mention of Islam.

Muslim-UK · Jul 7, 2017

shunyadragon said:
Highly interpretive, and still no mention of Islam.

Islam means peace through the surrender of one's will to God. All Prophets followed this. You don't find Prophets in the Torah saying, they were following Judaism, or Christianity in the NT.

Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one inclining toward truth, a Muslim [submitting to Allah ]. And he was not of the polytheists. Qur'an 3:67

Now recall in Psalms David pbuh mentions Pilgrimage to Baca, to the blessed house. Can you think of another place that sounds like Baca containing a house of Pilgrimage?

David gives further clues about the Ko'-ra custodians of this blessed house:

The name ko'-ra-its. Qorchi, , beno Qorach Korahites; Sons of Korah in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. ; in the King James Version appears also as Korhite, Kohathite, Kore. Is the tribe that are being left in charge of this House of God by King David

We know this by reading Exodus 6: 24 The sons of Korah were Assir, Elkanah and Abiasaph. These were the Korahite clans.

And when we read, 1 Chronicles 6:31

31 These are the men David put in charge of the music in the house of the LORD after the ark came to rest there.

32 They ministered with music before the tabernacle, the tent of meeting, until Solomon built the temple of the LORD in Jerusalem. They performed their duties according to the regulations laid down for them

33 Here are the men who served, together with their sons: From the Kohathites: Heman, the musician, the son of Joel, the son of Samuel,

34 the son of Elkanah the son of Jeroham, the son of Eliel, the son of Toah,

35 the son of Zuph, the son of Elkanah, the son of Mahath, the son of Amasai,

36 the son of Elkanah, the son of Joel, the son of Azariah, the son of Zephaniah,

37 the son of Tahath, the son of Assir, the son of Ebiasaph, the son of Korah,

When we read Number 26: 11 The line of Korah, however, did not die out. meaning they survived as the righteous will survive.

Hence it is clear the Ark came to rest in the House of the Lord prior to it being moved to Jerusalem by Solomon from above verses. Meaning the House of God was not in Jerusalem

And of course I'm sure you know, the Final Prophet of God was from the banu Queresh, (ko'-ra-its. Qorchi, , beno Qorach) Tribe of Arabia, specifically in and around Mecca.

We also know the Qur'an was revealed over a period of 23 years, a verse here and a verses there, a line here and a line there ....

Isaiah 28:9 “Whom shall he teach knowledge? And whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little and there a little.”

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to this people,

Here we see a prophet speaking a foreign tongue to whom revelation will come with a line here and a verse there. He would struggle to read.

Going to the Isaiah Scroll found among the Dead Sea Scrolls : http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah#28:1 I'll post the whole chapter:

1 Woe to the proud garland of the drunkards of Ephraim, and to the fading flower of its glorious beauty, which is on the head of the bloated valley of those overcome with wine!

2 See, the LORD has one who is powerful and strong. Like a hailstorm, a destroying tempest, like a storm of mighty overflowing waters and he will bring it forcefully to the ground.

3 The proud garland of the drunkards of Ephraim will be trampled underfoot.

4 And the fading flower of its glorious beauty, which is on the head of the bloated valley, will be like a first-ripe fig before the summer; 5 when someone sees it, he swallows it as soon as it is in his hand.

6 In that day the LORD of hosts will be a glorious crown and a beautiful diadem for the remnant of his people, and a spirit of justice to the one who sits in judgment, and strength to those who turn back the battle at the gate.

7 These reel with wine and stagger with strong drink. The priest and the prophet reel with strong drink, they are swallowed up with wine and stagger with strong drink; they err in vision and stumble in judgment.

8 For all the tables are covered with vomit and filth, so that no place is clean.

9 To whom will he teach knowledge, and to whom will he interpret the message? Those who are weaned from milk, and taken from the breast?

10 For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.

11 But by men of strange lips and with another tongue will he speak to this people, 12 to whom he said, This is the rest, give rest to him that is weary, and this is the refreshing; yet they would not listen.

13 Therefore the word of the LORD will be to them precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little-so that they may go, and fall backward, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.

14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scoffers, who rule this people that is in Jerusalem.

15 Because you have said, We have made a covenant with death, and we are in agreement with Sheol; when the overflowing scourge examines, it will not come to us; for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood we have hid ourselves.

16 Therefore thus says the LORD, Behold, I am laying in Zion a foundation stone, a tried stone, a precious cornerstone of sure foundation; whoever believes will not be in panic.

17 And I will make justice the line, and righteousness the plummet; and the hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters will overflow the hiding-place.

18 And your covenant with death will be annulled, and your agreement with Sheol will not stand; when the overflowing scourge passes through, then you will be trodden down by it.

19 As often as it passes through, it will take you; for morning by morning it will pass through, by day and by night-sheer terror to understand the message.

20 For the bed is too short for people to stretch themselves on it, and the covering to wrap themselves in it.

21 For the LORD will rise up on Mount Perazim; he will be angry in the valley of Gibeon, so that he may do his work, his strange work, and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

22 But as for you, do not be scoffers, lest your bonds be made strong; for I have heard a decree of destruction from the LORD of hosts, upon the whole earth.

23 Give ear, and hear my voice; listen, and hear my speech.

24 Does he who plows to sow plow continually? Does he continually open and harrow his ground?

25 When he has leveled its surface, does he not cast abroad the caraway, and scatter the cumin, and put in the wheat in rows, and the barley in the designated place, and the spelt as its borders?

26 For his God instructs him aright, and teaches him.

27 For caraway is not threshed with a sharp threshing instrument, neither is a cartwheel rolled over the cumin; but the caraway is beaten out with a staff, and the cumin with a rod.

28 It is ground, but one does not always thresh it; although his cart and his horses may scatter it, he does not grind it.

29 This also comes from the LORD of hosts, who is distinguished in counsel, and excellent in wisdom.

Let's start with identifying what happened to the descendants of Ephraim. I did a search and the following site came up. Endtimes Christian website: The Descendants of Esau Are Ephraim and Judah’s Arch-Enemy in the End Times - Hoshana Rabbah Blog

Is it possible some descendants of Ephraim ended up in Arabia in a valley dedicated to drunkenness and idolatry? Could the fading glory and bloated valley be possible references to a former house of God now dedicated to 360 idols? God then goes on to warn how the inhabitants will fall under foot, crushed in battle. verse 5 hints things might soon be restored to their former glory and be ripe for eating/accepting. verse 6, God will aid the few and help them push back against the enemies. He will aid his Prophet, the spirit of justice. 7 The people are drunk, neglecting God in favour of useless idols. 8 so much so, the house is fully adorned with them.

9 who will God raise to restore His glory? It will be ordinary people. 10 Who will he teach with a verse here and a verse there, a surah here and a surah there?

11 & 12 A man who will speak to his own people in a superior speech over a span of time, and yet though it will come slowly, it will baffle them making them proud and turning away.

14 men of Jerusalem, (Jews) take note of this message. Some accepted, most scoffed and rejected it.

15 God warns them, think not you are safe for you have deceived yourselves.

16 God will raise his foundations in Zion, which covers the land of Arabia. A House of worship with a special cornerstone.

17 the liars who hid the hiding place will see the waters overflow and expose the well of zam zam, not far from the House of God.

18 The previous covenant will be revoked
19,20,21 and 22 The new message will come with the strength of God behind it, spreading across the Earth.

23 Embrace the message.
24-28 You've been planting and waiting, this is the harvest so be happy and rejoice, though you may not like it. Sometimes things seem harsh, but they are to help you. Giving up dealing in interest, fasting, praying 5 times a day, fighting for God's cause etc 29 God knows best

It might not gel perfectly, but given what we know about how Islam established itself in Arabia, and how the Jews and Christians were told to embrace it and the ensuing strife, I think it's not a bad fit.

Nakosis · Jul 7, 2017

Augustus said:
Why?

Because of post #138

Augustus · Jul 7, 2017

Nakosis said:
Because of post #138

The Southern Levant would not be 'Arab' at that point.

The designation Arab really spread after the conquests and refers more to a linguistic group than an ethnic one. Even now many 'Arabs' in the Levant are Mediterranean people ethnically (and often culturally) similar to Greeks and many Turks.

Augustus · Jul 7, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
Mecca and the Kaaba:

Blessed are those who dwell in your house; they are ever praising you. Blessed are those whose strength is in you,
whose hearts are set on pilgrimage. Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools. Psalms 84:4-6

If you are interested, this is a thread where @Tumah explains (very persuasively imo) why that reading is highly flawed Mecca and Kaaba in the Bible !!!

It's a bit like when Muslims want to see Ptolemy's Macorba as being Mecca (despite it having a different name and being in a different place) to cover for the fact that a claimed place of massive importance doesn't seem to have been noticed by non-Arabs

Muslim-UK said:
Jews wear cube phylacteries on their heads and bind themselves 7 times.

Are you claiming that Jews wear 'mini-Kabbas' on their heads based on the Meccan sanctuary?

Muslim-UK · Jul 7, 2017

Augustus said:
Are you claiming that Jews wear 'mini-Kabbas' on their heads based on the Meccan sanctuary?

The Jewish Scholar in post 133 certainly seems to think so.

Nakosis · Jul 7, 2017

Augustus said:
The Southern Levant would not be 'Arab' at that point.

The designation Arab really spread after the conquests and refers more to a linguistic group than an ethnic one. Even now many 'Arabs' in the Levant are Mediterranean people ethnically (and often culturally) similar to Greeks and many Turks.

What about the Moabite in the Transjordan area? This seems a likely source of the mysterious tribe of Yahweh worshipers.

Augustus · Jul 7, 2017

Nakosis said:
What about the Moabite in the Transjordan area? This seems a likely source of the mysterious tribe of Yahweh worshipers.

No idea tbh.

They were probably Mediterranean people similar to the Israelites, Phoenecians, etc. There was really much more of a Mediterranean civilisation back then.

Augustus · Jul 7, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
All the Prophets visited Mecca and made similar pilgrimages

In your opinion, why did nobody mention this until the Islamic era and why do you think nobody made clear references to Mecca as an important trading and pilgrimage site pre-Islam?

Muslim-UK said:
The Jewish Scholar in post 133 certainly seems to think so.

Do you know (roughly) where in the video it is? Thanks.

Muslim-UK · Jul 7, 2017

Augustus said:
In your opinion, why did nobody mention this until the Islamic era and why do you think nobody made clear references to Mecca as an important trading and pilgrimage site pre-Islam?

Pilgrimage to Baca, Bakka is mentioned in the Bible. Who said Mecca was an important trading site? Sure Caravans brought goods there and did some trade, but it was better known as a site Pagan site of Idols. Don't forget a large amount of time had passed since the Pilgrimages of the Torah. Solomon pbuh had built the Temple, so the Jews had somewhere to make their own and allowed the Kaaba to fall into Paganism.

Augustus said:
Do you know (roughly) where in the video it is? Thanks.

Pagan influence on Christianity

The guy is an Islamophobe, and has a much longer video on YT where he freely spouts his hate.

Nakosis · Jul 7, 2017

Augustus said:
No idea tbh.

They were probably Mediterranean people similar to the Israelites, Phoenecians, etc. There was really much more of a Mediterranean civilisation back then.

Yes, it's a lot of work trying to look into it.

I assume folks create a narrative around what little information is available. So I can't really confirm or deny my statement about the Arabs at this point, but it's fair you called me out on it.

Muslim-UK · Jul 7, 2017

The History of Arabia goes back at least 2000 B.C.

history of Arabia

Augustus · Jul 7, 2017

Nakosis said:
Yes, it's a lot of work trying to look into it.

I assume folks create a narrative around what little information is available. So I can't really confirm or deny my statement about the Arabs at this point, but it's fair you called me out on it.

It is more likely that it came from a culturally similar group rather than some Hijazis, as people often 'borrowed' gods from others they came into contact with.

Muslim-UK said:
Who said Mecca was an important trading site?

Islamic tradition

Muslim-UK said:
Pilgrimage to Baca, Bakka is mentioned in the Bible. .. but it was better known as a site Pagan site of Idols.

Well, Baka is mentioned as a place people pass through on their way to Zion. It takes a lot of poetic licence to turn it into a reference to Mecca.

Aside from scripture though, why do you think that no historian mentioned it?

It was and was holy to all Arabs and supposedly so famous that Abraha invaded it in the 'Year of the Elephant' because it was more popular than his 'rival' Church in Sana (although the dates don't match, Arbraha was victorious in his campaign, and he didn't go to Mecca).

The region was full of literate people, other sites (and Kabaas) of Arab pilgrimage are mentioned, but nobody ever mentions it depite the fact that Arabs had formed a major part of both the Persian and Roman armies for centuries.

How can such an important place, close to the 'centre of the world', not be mentioned? Surely you would expect numerous explicit references as Arabia was hardly an isolated backwater.

Muslim-UK said:
Pagan influence on Christianity

The guy is an Islamophobe, and has a much longer video on YT where he freely spouts his hate.

Sorry, was meaning where in the video is it (5mins, 10 mins, etc.)

Pagan influence on Christianity

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