Paul said so!

Jayhawker Soule · Jun 20, 2017

Paul said so.
Paul is scripture.
2 Timothy 3:16,17 -- which some insist was written by Paul -- tells us: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God.and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."
Therefore, all of Paul "is given by inspiration of God.and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."
Therefore ...

^ what could possibly be wrong with that?

Augustus · Jun 20, 2017

Jayhawker Soule said:
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God.and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Is that like an ancient DMCA intellectual property notice? Fair usage?

Brickjectivity · Jun 20, 2017

Jayhawker Soule said:
Paul said so.

Paul is scripture.

2 Timothy 3:16,17 -- which some insist was written by Paul -- tells us: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God.and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Therefore, all of Paul "is given by inspiration of God.and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Therefore ...

^ what could possibly be wrong with that?

The word rendered 'Scripture' is the same as the word for 'Writing'. It is not limited to particular books, not to Paul's words or to Thucidides or to Buddha's. Consider this: There was a famous Christian (Irenaeus the disciple of John) who wrote a book Against Heresy without which we today would have little or no knowledge of a particular sect of gnosticism which he opposed. He said he wrote it because the best way to fight against a Heresy was simply to write down what it said. He did not fear that writing it would promote its spread. He believed as did Paul that all writing was profitable, given by inspiration of God. His opinion was to let the reader be the judge, and in harmony with him the writer of 2 Timothy 3:16 has declared all writing to be inspired by God. Its good to read and not just one book but many. Its just sense that Paul is stating, not a claim to be more inspired than other writers.

Jayhawker Soule · Jun 20, 2017

Brickjectivity said:
The word rendered 'Scripture' is the same as the word for 'Writing'. It is not limited to particular books, ...

Silly me; I was assuming that 2 Tim 3:16 was related to 2 Tim 3:15. My bad.

The Holy Bottom Burp · Jun 20, 2017

Jayhawker Soule said:
Paul said so.

Paul is scripture.

2 Timothy 3:16,17 -- which some insist was written by Paul -- tells us: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God.and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Therefore, all of Paul "is given by inspiration of God.and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Therefore ...

^ what could possibly be wrong with that?

Hey, come on now six of the thirteen canonical Pauline letters are thought not to be written by Paul by biblical scholars, that's damn near 50% forgery. Therefore, Paul probably never said that in the first place, so leave him alone, you bully!

Kemosloby · Jun 20, 2017

The other Apostles had no problem calling Pauls' writings scripture. Here we have Peter the Apostle calling it scripture. So, as long as it actually is scripture inspired by God, it's not wrong that Paul calls it scripture inspired by God.

2 Peter 3:16
Final Exhortations
…Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

MJFlores · Jun 20, 2017

Jayhawker Soule said:
Paul said so.

Paul is scripture.

2 Timothy 3:16,17 -- which some insist was written by Paul -- tells us: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God.and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Therefore, all of Paul "is given by inspiration of God.and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Therefore ...

^ what could possibly be wrong with that?

Examine the message, if it is true - not the person or who said it.

Is all the scripture and inspiration of God?
If one follow the scriptures would he attain righteousness?
If the message is correct, no matter who said it - then it must be good, isn't it?

Brickjectivity · Jun 20, 2017

Jayhawker Soule said:
Silly me; I was assuming that 2 Tim 3:16 was related to 2 Tim 3:15. My bad.

You're taking a big bite out of my sandwich. You aren't being silly, but you do see 3:16 ? It says "All" not just "The Holy," and it is thought that Paul has gnostic influences in things he says. James certainly seems to, so why not Paul who supposedly meets James and is of the same general persuasion. Why would he switch from saying 'Holy Scriptures' to 'All scripture' in your opinion if not to point out that all writings are inspired and not only the Holy Scriptures? Is Christianity not intended by Paul to be an expansion of Abraham's household? That certainly seems like his agenda. He believes that gentiles are now holy without becoming circumcised. Why wouldn't he think that all writings were inspired? So they are written by gentiles in whom the holy spirit could move at any time. So why can't they be inspired by God? So Paul points this out. So I point out that 2 Tim 3:15 and 3:16 work together with Paul's vision of an expanded holiness in the world that is no longer limited to just those who are circumcised.

idav · Jun 20, 2017

Jayhawker Soule said:
Paul said so.

Paul is scripture.

2 Timothy 3:16,17 -- which some insist was written by Paul -- tells us: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God.and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Therefore, all of Paul "is given by inspiration of God.and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Therefore ...

^ what could possibly be wrong with that?

He can't be talking about his own works if he is talking about scripture, he'd be referring to the Old Testament books cause I doubt he read the gospels.

Jayhawker Soule · Jun 20, 2017

Brickjectivity said:
You're taking a big bite out of my sandwich. You aren't being silly, but you do see 3:16 ? It says "All" not just "The Holy,"

So "all [writing] is given by inspiration of God," and the author was claiming, in his own contradictory way, an equivalency between the works of Paul and that of "All" other available texts? OK.

Jayhawker Soule · Jun 20, 2017

idav said:
... cause I doubt he read the gospels.

You "doubt"? Seriously?

wizanda · Jun 21, 2017

Jayhawker Soule said:
what could possibly be wrong with that?

It gets worse:

1 Corinthians 2:15 But he who is spiritual discerns all things, and he himself is judged by no one.

And with peter's statement (2 Peter 3:15-17), it means Paul becomes beyond correction, and even if an angel came to correct him, they're cursed in advance.

Galatians 1:8 But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you any “Gospel” other than that which we preached to you, let him be cursed.

12jtartar · Jun 21, 2017

Jayhawker Soule said:
Paul said so.

Paul is scripture.

2 Timothy 3:16,17 -- which some insist was written by Paul -- tells us: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God.and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Therefore, all of Paul "is given by inspiration of God.and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Therefore ...

^ what could possibly be wrong with that?

Jayhawker Soule,
I hope that you do not use a few Scriptures to prove a thought of yours, but reject Scripture if it disagrees with you.
All Scripture is related to all other Scripture, Intertextuality, and Scripture Explains Scripture. If a translation is found to contradict itself, you should recognize it as translatorese, because The Almighty God, Jehovah, is the author of the Bible, and when it was written, it was inerrant.
If you think laissez-faire attitude is pleasing to God, you are very incorrect. The whole reason for the Bible, and Christianity, is to teach everyone who will listen, The Way, as written in the Scriptures, Acts 9:2,19:9,23, Matthew 28:19,20, 1Timothy 2:1-7, 4:1-5,16, 2Timothy 2:1,2, 4:2-5. If people did not teach these things to others, how would people come to a knowledge of the truth?? The truth makes the difference between life and death, John 4:23,24, 2Thessalonians 2:7-15. 1Corinthians 9:16,17.
Agape!!!

rusra02 · Jun 21, 2017

If I was Satan or resister, I think I would try to plant doubts that the true God could author a book using human secretaries. I think I would do whatever I could to discredit the men who God used, in my role as slanderer or devil; because if people would examine the Bible for themselves, the evidence for divine authorship in the Holy Scriptures can clearly be seen.

Jayhawker Soule · Jun 21, 2017

12jtartar said:
Jayhawker Soule,
I hope that you do not use a few Scriptures to prove a thought of yours, but reject Scripture if it disagrees with you.

Rest assured that I don't use a few Scriptures to prove anything whatsoever.

12jtartar said:
All Scripture is related to all other Scripture, Intertextuality, and Scripture Explains Scripture.

I was pretty sure that @Brickjectivity was talking nonsense when claiming that 2 Timothy's 'Scripture' referred to every text ever written. Thanks for making it clear that 2 Timothy is referring to intertextuality. Still, I think that @Brickjectivity deserves some credit for pointing out that 2 Timothy 3:15 refers to "sacred writings," or, more correctly, the sacred writings that the reader has known from a child, while 3:16 refers to "all text."

I guess intertextuality and your guidance that "Scripture Explains Scripture" leads us to assume that 2 Timothy 3:15-16 is speaking of Jewish canon in one form or another.

12jtartar said:
If a translation is found to contradict itself, you should recognize it as translatorese, ...

I'm always on the lookout for translatorese.

12jtartar said:
..., because The Almighty God, Jehovah, is the author of the Bible, and when it was written, it was inerrant.

Including 2 Timothy? Help us out here: which translation of which verse of which book of which bible makes this claim and why should we think it accurate?

12jtartar said:
If you think laissez-faire attitude is pleasing to God, you are very incorrect.

Again? My bad.

12jtartar said:
The Way, as written in the Scriptures, Acts 9:2,19:9,23, Matthew 28:19,20, 1Timothy 2:1-7, 4:1-5,16, 2Timothy 2:1,2, 4:2-5. If people did not teach these things to others, how would people come to a knowledge of the truth?? The truth makes the difference between life and death, John 4:23,24, 2Thessalonians 2:7-15. 1Corinthians 9:16,17.

Remind us again why we can be certain that Paul, Luke, John, and Matthew are the purveyors of truth.

12jtartar said:
Agape!!!

L'shalom.

Brickjectivity · Jun 21, 2017

Jayhawker Soule said:
So "all [writing] is given by inspiration of God," and the author was claiming, in his own contradictory way, an equivalency between the works of Paul and that of "All" other available texts? OK.

Point taken, but this is a short letter. We can afford to look at the whole thing and what it is about. Its not about elevating Paul's speech to high status. This writer is giving advice on how to deal with combative opponents. He mentions evildoers, imposters, and accusers in his letter in the lead-up (2:23-26) to your verses of interest. He's first telling them not to argue heatedly but to calmly instruct those who have been primed and manipulated with accusations. Then I think he goes into why this is and where the opposition is coming from. He says to avoid 'Godless chatter' , but he predicts godless chatter will increase and become a widespread thing. So what is 'Godless chatter' to him? He describes godless chatter, which as it turns out is actually when people talk about godliness but don't do anything with it. He describes it as having a form of godliness but denying the power of godliness. So his idea of godless chatter is not talk about secular things but is a lot of religious talk with no action. This brings us full circle to his point in 2 Tim 3:15-16. His point is that the scripture is great but only if its used to equip you for righteous activity. Now, is it only Holy Scripture that can be used for that purpose or are all writings fair game? All writings can be used for that purpose.

I do not think I'm teaching you principles, J, that you don't already know. I'm just arguing my point, and also your thread has gotten me to look at this more closely. I'm learning. He's definitely not saying that his words are better or that only the Tanach is inspired. He's saying people must not exchange religious talk for religious duty, and he's predicting that most people will.

9-10ths_Penguin · Jun 21, 2017

rusra02 said:
If I was Satan or resister, I think I would try to plant doubts that the true God could author a book using human secretaries. I think I would do whatever I could to discredit the men who God used, in my role as slanderer or devil; because if people would examine the Bible for themselves, the evidence for divine authorship in the Holy Scriptures can clearly be seen.

Genesis 30:37-39:

37 But Jacob took fresh-cut branches from poplar, almond, and plane trees. He made white streaks by peeling them, making the white inner wood in the branches visible. 38 Then he set up the peeled branches in all the watering troughs where the flocks came to drink. He set up the branches in front of the flocks when they were in heat and came to drink. 39 When the sheep mated in front of the branches, they gave birth to young that were streaked or speckled or spotted.

"The evidence for divine authorship in the Holy Scriptures can clearly be seen."

Jayhawker Soule · Jun 22, 2017

Brickjectivity said:
Point taken, but this is a short letter. We can afford to look at the whole thing and what it is about. Its not about elevating Paul's speech to high status. This writer is giving advice on how to deal with combative opponents. He mentions evildoers, imposters, and accusers in his letter in the lead-up (2:23-26) to your verses of interest. He's first telling them not to argue heatedly but to calmly instruct those who have been primed and manipulated with accusations. Then I think he goes into why this is and where the opposition is coming from. He says to avoid 'Godless chatter' , but he predicts godless chatter will increase and become a widespread thing. So what is 'Godless chatter' to him? He describes godless chatter, which as it turns out is actually when people talk about godliness but don't do anything with it. He describes it as having a form of godliness but denying the power of godliness. So his idea of godless chatter is not talk about secular things but is a lot of religious talk with no action. This brings us full circle to his point in 2 Tim 3:15-16. His point is that the scripture is great but only if its used to equip you for righteous activity. Now, is it only Holy Scripture that can be used for that purpose or are all writings fair game? All writings can be used for that purpose.

I do not think I'm teaching you principles, J, that you don't already know. I'm just arguing my point, and also your thread has gotten me to look at this more closely. I'm learning. He's definitely not saying that his words are better or that only the Tanach is inspired. He's saying people must not exchange religious talk for religious duty, and he's predicting that most people will.

A couple of points:

Thank you for the well considered point.
In his excellent The History and Theology of the New Testament Writings, Udo Schnelle -- an authority on Paul and Deuteropaulinism -- suggests something quite different when he writes: "When in 2 Tim. 3.16 the Pastorals are described as inspired Scripture, this points to a process of collection and selection within developing early Christian literature."
In either event, to use 2 Timothy 3:15-17 to argue inerrancy is simply ignorant.

Thanks again.

rusra02 · Jun 23, 2017

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Genesis 30:37-39:

"The evidence for divine authorship in the Holy Scriptures can clearly be seen."

The Bible's report of Jacob's misguided efforts to cause the flock to produce animals with various colors does not discredit the Bible. Later, Jacob acknowledged it was Jehovah who caused the flocks of Laban to produce "striped, speckled, and spotty" animals. (Genesis 31:7-9) I am convinced the Bible has as it's Author the true God.

9-10ths_Penguin · Jun 23, 2017

rusra02 said:
The Bible's report of Jacob's misguided efforts to cause the flock to produce animals with various colors does not discredit the Bible. Later, Jacob acknowledged it was Jehovah who caused the flocks of Laban to produce "striped, speckled, and spotty" animals. (Genesis 31:7-9) I am convinced the Bible has as it's Author the true God.

If that one doesn't do it for you, we could look at the Bible's advice for treating infections:

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 14 - New English Translation

Do you think this shows evidence of divine authorship?

Paul said so!

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Being

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One Accepts All Religious Texts

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