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Can Christianity Adapt to Survive?

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
One final thing, and that is this issue of the CC being "corrupt" in its theology.

Here's John 3:16, which many Protestants refer to as "the Bible in a nutshell" and that which is necessary for "salvation": For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Now, did the CC ever not teach that? The answer is clearly no if anyone actually does the history.

So, how could the CC be "theologically corrupt" if it has always taught what is necessary for "salvation"? Logically, any such claim is bogus, but I, as well as many others growing up in Protestant churches, were told that lie, and the unfortunate reality is that some still believe it. But if I or someone else made any similar claim about their denomination, they would scream bloody murder. To put it another way, the "corruption" is in their own head.

Unless this thread returns back to the original topic, this will be my last post.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
If survival at any cost was the goal, yes, that's what they should do. But, since moral progress would be the price
The topic of the thread was "Can Christianity Adapt to Survive" not "Can Christianity Adapt to suit my moral and spiritual considerations".

Do you really want to return your church to its past?
There is a difference in progressing with Tradition to a fuller understanding and tossing Tradition to the wastebin.

Take salvation outside the Church. Understanding that God's grace which flows through the Church is not beholden to any human understanding, that the Church has the guarantee but God is Lord and may do as He pleases in regards to others is progress in coming towards the fullness of the truth; claiming that atheists can do good works to get to heaven is a removal of all tradition and revelation that came before that statement.

I fully support the former and unequivocally reject the latter.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
The topic of the thread was "Can Christianity Adapt to Survive" not "Can Christianity Adapt to suit my moral and spiritual considerations".
Of course not:, but the word "survive" wasn't meant to be limited to answering whether the traditionalists of the church could outlast the liberals. I would expect the traditionalists to stubbornly hang on, out of touch with the world, until they die off..

There is a difference in progressing with Tradition to a fuller understanding and tossing Tradition to the wastebin.
A "fuller understanding?" Isn't that what Pope Francis is offering?

Take salvation outside the Church. Understanding that God's grace which flows through the Church is not beholden to any human understanding, that the Church has the guarantee but God is Lord and may do as He pleases in regards to others is progress in coming towards the fullness of the truth; claiming that atheists can do good works to get to heaven is a removal of all tradition and revelation that came before that statement....I fully support the former and unequivocally reject the latter.
But it's not just us atheists that trouble you. Is it? You'd like to return to the position that acceptance of the Catholic doctrine is the only path to Heaven. Or, am I wrong?
 
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Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
But it's not just us atheists that trouble you. Is it? You'd like to return to the position that acceptance of the Catholic doctrine is the only path to Heaven. Or, am I wrong?
Not quite, Christian doctrine, but likely not in the way you think it means.

Take the case of a flock of sheep being herded to their shelter. A sheep may follow the path and his shepherd and be guaranteed they make it, a sheep may veer off the path and if they stay that way they may not make it or the shepherd may find and bring them to the shelter.

That is what I would mean by it. The shepherd isn't limited by the path.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Not quite, Christian doctrine, but likely not in the way you think it means.

Take the case of a flock of sheep being herded to their shelter. A sheep may follow the path and his shepherd and be guaranteed they make it, a sheep may veer off the path and if they stay that way they may not make it or the shepherd may find and bring them to the shelter.

That is what I would mean by it. The shepherd isn't limited by the path.
You lost me.
Is it not possible for you to just give me a straight answer?
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
God is not limited to the path... Now all I have to do is figure out what that means.
This is why I first used an analogy.

God is the shepherd, Christianity is the path that leads to the shelter. If you follow the path you will end up in the shelter. It is the only path that leads there. God can go get a sheep that isn't on the path and bring it there.

God can save people that are not on the only path to salvation.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I believe if the church adapts to sin then it becomes apostate.

I believe it can adapt a little bit to music and dress codes and has done so successfully in many congregations.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
A traditionalist is a person who supports the established customs and beliefs of his or her society or group, and does not want to change them. For example. within the Catholic Church, a group of traditionalists wants a return to positions as they were before the Second Vatican Council (1962–65). One of those positions was that Heaven was reserved for Catholics only.

As I see it, the idea of belonging to an elite group favored by God made a strong appeal to the arrogant side of human nature. And so, I suspect these Catholic traditionalists of being highly infected with arrogance.

But now, Pope Francis, a good and humble man, has said that even atheists might get to Heaven with good works. Wow, imagine that! The traditionalists must have had strokes when they heard that.

But let's suppose that Pope Francis's position will lead not just Catholics but all Christians into a new era of harmony with their brothers and sisters of all beliefs. What happens to the requirements for Salvation? Why would anyone need the Catholic church or any other Christian faith?

Well, it sounds like the Church will maintain that it is still our best hope for entry to Heaven based on good works because it gives great moral guidance. Now, this is an interesting claim because it wasn't that long ago that Pope John Paul II made over one hundred public apologies during his reign. He asked forgiveness for the sins of his predecessors (including for the sinful Crusades).

Bottom Line: The Catholic Church, like Christianity on the whole, is doing what it can to adapt and survive in a changing, more sophisticated, social environment. But if the idea of Heaven as a country club reserved for Christians isn't going to be received as credible anymore then they can't turn back. And if their claims to high-grade moral guidance can't be backed with evidence, what's left? What will they have to offer in order to move forward and survive?

Please post your comments.

I believe what Francis said might be construed that way but I am sure he was being very cagey without giving up the hen house to the fox.

I believe this was never a viable position and reveals how little the RC church understood about salvation.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Hopefully given enough time, it will be relegated back to its mythological roots as with all the other pantheon of ancient gods recorded throughout history where it rightfully belongs.

I believe we have the prophecies of the future and Jesus rules.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
I believe if the church adapts to sin then it becomes apostate.
Well obviously the Church isn't going to adapt to sin. I don't think you Christians know much about sin. For example, in the 50 states of the USA, the Christian majority at the ballot box has, over many years, created laws that make criminals of their neighbors whose acts have hurt no one ("victimless crimes"). Making those laws was morally wrong.
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
Well obviously the Church isn't going to adapt to sin. I don't think you Christians know much about sin. For example, in the 50 states of the USA, the Christian majority at the ballot box has, over many years, created laws that make criminals of their neighbors whose acts have hurt no one ("victimless crimes"). Making those laws was morally wrong.

I believe I doubt very much that you would qualify as a judge of what is moral.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
I believe I doubt very much that you would qualify as a judge of what is moral.
I'm human. We humans are all judges of what is moral. And the proof that those laws of which I spoke were/are immoral is that, as conscience emerges, they are being repealed one by one.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I believe we have the prophecies of the future and Jesus rules.
Sure. That's expected. I've had said roughly the same things decade's ago.

It's the lack of substance by which people notice, for which Christianity, aside from its popularity, has nothing particularly unique or special to offer compared to other Greek and Roman God's of mythological origin.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
I fully support the former and unequivocally reject the latter.

There are not two Catholic Churches, a pre Vatican II church and a post Vatican II church, but as professed in the Creed, One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. This Church has progressed through the centuries not in stagnation but always moving forward and to meet the sign of the times and remains the same teaching church it has always been.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
It is about time the Catholic church moved into the 21st century and chucked out its traditions, which have been so harmful over the centuries!
 
Probably the reason organized religion as Christianity is not being as successful is because the focus has not been on the truth displayed in the scriptures and in the life of Jesus. The goal of scripture and the teachings of Jesus was not to separate his own person as some special being with powers unattainable to everyone else. Neither was Jesus trying to use his life as a patch to fix our messed up life.
The scripture is about returning one to their original position by quickening the Christ (or the son of God) within oneself.
If we could here the voice within us instead of separate (like an Idol) from us, then we would see that most Christianity has lost the message, or it hasn't been revealed yet.
You can't put a new patch on an old garment.
You can't put a perfect life on an imperfect one. You must get a new perception, that being a new foundation of thought, the Christ within.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
It is about time the Catholic church moved into the 21st century and chucked out its traditions, which have been so harmful over the centuries!
Frankly, that could be said of almost all churches as basically all have a checkered past.
 
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