JustWondering
Jerk
I assume this isn't in the bible? Is there a source for this online where I can read more about it?
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Why would a god need middlemen?
- Thread starter JustWondering
- Start date
I assume this isn't in the bible? Is there a source for this online where I can read more about it?
JustWondering
Jerk
Most religions have moral teachings, besides, common sense and empathy is all that's required to create a moral code. You don't need a god for that.
Miracles often only appear in ancient stories that cannot be verified or are the result of mass hallucination. Not a reliable thing to base my beliefs on.
There is nothing that shows visions or other religious experiences originate from anyway besides the persons own mind. If people had visions and experiences that imparted information to them, that they couldn't otherwise have known without, for lack of a better term "supernatural assistance", I'd be convinced. Convinced that some phenomenon of some kind took place.
If I showed you examples of people from different faiths having visions or experiencing miracles caused by different gods would you dismiss them out of hand? If not would you start to question if your current beliefs are fabrications? If so, why are the same proofs for other religions that you use for your religion so easily dismissible?
JustWondering
Jerk
Most religions have moral teachings, besides, common sense and empathy is all that's required to create a moral code. You don't need a god for that.
Miracles often only appear in ancient stories that cannot be verified or are the result of mass hallucination. Not a reliable thing to base my beliefs on.
There is nothing that shows visions or other religious experiences originate from anyway besides the persons own mind. If people had visions and experiences that imparted information to them, that they couldn't otherwise have known without, for lack of a better term "supernatural assistance", I'd be convinced. Convinced that some phenomenon of some kind took place.
If I showed you examples of people from different faiths having visions or experiencing miracles caused by different gods would you dismiss them out of hand? If not would you start to question if your current beliefs are fabrications? If so, why are the same proofs for other religions that you use for your religion so easily dismissible?
Strange! I can believe something you said today and change my mind tomorrow (or the other way around). It is entirely my choice.
'Love your enemies! Turn the other cheek! Give all you have to the poor!' - nobody else says that. Only from someone extraordinary.
'Mass hallucination?' If a hundreds of people say they witnessed something, only a very a arrogant, conceited person would dismiss it as not reliable.
The visions I talked about at personal visions, nobody asked you to believe other peoples visions or experiences.
You sound very upset about something. I think when the Christ returns you may have a very difficult time - may be even a severe breakdown.
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
"The Torah's claim is that the entire people heard God speak at Mount Sinai, experiencing national revelation. God did not just appear to Moses in a private rendezvous; He appeared to everyone, some 3 million people. This claim is mentioned many times in the Torah.
[Moses told the Israelites]: 'Only beware for yourself and greatly beware for your soul, lest you forget the things that your eyes have beheld. Do not remove this memory from your heart all the days of your life. Teach your children and your children's children about the day that you stood before the Lord your God at Horev [Mount Sinai]...
God spoke to you from the midst of the fire, you were hearing the sound of words, but you were not seeing a form, only a sound. He told you of His covenant, instructing you to keep the Ten Commandments, and He inscribed them on two stone tablets.' (Deut.4:9-13)
'You have been shown in order to know that God, He is the Supreme Being. There is none besides Him. From heaven he let you hear His voice in order to teach you, and on earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words amid the fire.' (Deut. 4:32-36)
Moses called all of Israel and said to them: 'Hear, O Israel, the decrees and the ordinances that I speak in your ears today ― learn them, and be careful to perform them. The Lord your God sealed a covenant with us at Horev [Mount Sinai]. Not with our forefathers did God seal this covenant, but with us ― we who are here, all of us alive today. Face to face did God speak with you on the mountain from amid the fire.' (Deut. 5:1-4)
The Torah claims that the entire Jewish nation heard God speak at Sinai, an assertion that has been accepted as part of their nation's history for over 3,000 years."
Did God Speak at Sinai?
JustWondering
Jerk
Ok, prove it. Choose to be an atheist and stop believing what you currently believe. It should be easy right?
I don't want to - I have freewill, you can't make me.
JustWondering
Jerk
Extraordinarily bad advice, which you yourself haven't taken. If you have time to chat on a religious forum you have time to pawn your computer so you can give that money to some random homeless person.
It depends on what was witnessed. People are easier to get riled up than you think. If people say they witnessed something that was supernatural in nature I'm going to look for a scientific explanation for what they saw first.
Hindu milk miracle - Wikipedia
I have no doubt that people have visions. I do however doubt such visions originate outside those peoples minds. If peoples perceptions and minds were infallible we wouldn't need mental institutions. I had a friend in high school who heard voices. He takes medication for it now and is a lot more stable. If he lived in an early superstitious age people would have thought he was possessed and possibly tried drilling a hole in his head to get the spirits out. Isn't science and modern medicine wonderful?
No, I am not upset. Refusing to entertain your superstitious beliefs does not mean I'm upset it means I don't share your views. That was a very clumsy attempt at deflecting the conversion from things you'd rather not discuss further. That won't work on me.
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JustWondering
Jerk
Just change back after a day. You said people can choose what they believe (like switching a light switch on and off), so prove it. Choose to belief a different set of beliefs today and then choose to change back tomorrow.
Ergo, Abducting extra-terrestrials exist. And Elvis is still alive. As a bonus. Not to speak of Loch Ness, and phantoms in Scottish castles.
Good to know. i wonder why those crazy, and arrogant, scientists are stll looking for life outside our planet, when it is so clear that those abducting reports are so plausible given the numbers of reports.
Ciao
- viole
JustWondering
Jerk
But what god are you talking about? I'd have far less issue with someone claiming that the universe was created by SOMETHING than a theist who claims they KNOW what created everything as well as what this beings personality is like, and that it has very specific demands and plans for us. The former sounds like someone who you can have a reasonable discussion about such things with, the latter is likely a closed minded person who isn't interested in discussion but in handing you a flyer and trying to convert you. I don't have answers to the big questions and have the intellectual integrity not to latch onto the first claims by religion that catch my fancy. Nobody knows if god/s exist or what made the universe, period. I'm still waiting for people who make claims they have answers to these questions to provide evidence or even a good argument or two to back it up. I think I'll be waiting for a long time.
JustWondering
Jerk
I've heard the story, it is not about actual events, it's to teach children not to lie. If you are going to say the stories of the bible are just stories to teach people morals than we don't need to attend churches or worship the god in the bible stories because it's just stories, that god doesn't actually exist. Like parents who threaten their children to be good or Santa won't give them presents. Just fabrications invented to manipulate people into behaving a certain way.
We will soon know whether you are really as special and gifted as you think you are.
Call it the end of the world, The Rapture, the Second Coming, or anything else you want to call it.
People have fervently believed that they are so special and gifted that they know what God is going to do, in advance. They have consistently been wrong for many centuries.
Tom
JustWondering
Jerk
Hebrews 1:1-2 New International Version (NIV)
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
View attachment 18000
What happened to the message and the prophets? What happened to the Son of God - whom God appointed to be heir of all things and the reason why he made the universe?
Acts 7:52
Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him—
If the Holy God showed himself to unholy people, what do you think would happen to them in his holy presence? What would happen to people when even holy things are used in contempt? A good example would be the Israelites in the desert:
Leviticus 16:2
The Lord said to Moses: “Tell your brother Aaron that he is not to come whenever he chooses into the Most Holy Place behind the curtain in front of the atonement cover on the ark, or else he will die. For I will appear in the cloud over the atonement cover.
Numbers 4:15
“After Aaron and his sons have finished covering the holy furnishings and all the holy articles, and when the camp is ready to move, only then are the Kohathites to come and do the carrying. But they must not touch the holy things or they will die. The Kohathites are to carry those things that are in the tent of meeting.
Numbers 4:20
But the Kohathites must not go in to look at the holy things, even for a moment, or they will die.”
Leviticus 10:1-2 New International Version (NIV)
Aaron’s sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and they offered unauthorized fire before the Lord, contrary to his command. So fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord.
View attachment 18001
2 Samuel 6:3
They set the ark of God on a new cart and brought it from the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab, were guiding the new cart. When they came to the threshing floor of Nakon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. The Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down, and he died there beside the ark of God.
View attachment 18002
Leviticus 22:9
“‘The priests are to perform my service in such a way that they do not become guilty and die for treating it with contempt. I am the Lord, who makes them holy.
You didn't answer my question, you just made unsupported claims about your religion. Please stay on topic. In REALITY we don't know if the prophets in ancient bible mythology even actually existed and if they did, they could have been delusional or con artists. Secondly, why should anyone take ancient Jewish mythology more seriously than the mythology of other cultures?
JustWondering
Jerk
You consistently avoid answering questions I ask you. When you do you always phrase your posts in vague terms that make discussion pointless/impossible, you are not coming off as cute or clever. Requests for you to provide support for the continuous claims you make are completely ignored. So unless YOU start providing posts with more substance I will probably just put you on my ignore list instead of responding to you again. Problem solved.
My claim is that the universe was created by a God with a plan. That plan is based on choice and faith. Can you be open minded to that.
JustWondering
Jerk
How do you know the person who came up with all this didn't just make it all up? What are your standards for determining what unverifiable supernatural claims are legit and which unverifiable supernatural claims are bogus?
JustWondering
Jerk
You need to explain your position further. How did you come to this conclusion?
If you can't be open minded what is the point of explaining. This is the problem, I will start explaining and you will start looking for ways to disqualify what I am saying. You won't be open minded. I am satisfied with my view but am always open minded to others I only ask for the same and it is incredibly hard to get.