The Bible declares that Jesus is God

kjw47 said:

gtell

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I'm sorry, but I have no idea what that means!

kjw47 said:

Mo post was about those who are born again--The ONLY way one gets born again= Ephesians 4:22-24-- Strip off the old personality( practice of sin) and put on the new personality--Righteousness( saying no to sin to the best of ones ability) this is washing ones robe white--the only ones who are actually born again. One is not--born again because they say 3 lines of prayer and a mortal tells them they are born again--it is not truth. Then they ask for( demand) the tithe.

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So, the ONLY way one gets born again is by ones own works? How does one get "born of Spirit" by ones own works? What about these verses?

John 1:12-13 (ESV Strong's) 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (ESV Strong's) 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Rick B said:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

"It is not in Greek philosophical usage, however, that the background of John's thought and language should be sought. Yet, because of that usage, logos constituted a bridge-word by which people brought up in Greek philosophy, like Justin Martyr in the second century, found their way to Johannine Christianity.
The true background to John's thought and language is found not in Greek philosophy but in Hebrew revelation. The 'word of God' in the Old Testament denotes God in action, especially in creation, revelation and deliverance...The personal status which he ascribes to the Word is a matter of real existence; the relation which the Word bears to God is a personal relation; 'the Word was with God'...The Word of God is distinguished from God Himself, and yet exists in a close personal relation with him; moreover, the Word shares the very nature of God, for 'the Word was God'...('John intends that the whole of his gospel shall be read in the light of this verse.The deeds and the words of Jesus are the deeds and the words of God; if this be not true, the book is blasphemous'. C. K. Barrett)" F.F. Bruce The Gospel and Epistles of John pp 28-31

“And the Word was with God.” The language is pregnant. It is not merely coexistence with God that is asserted, as of two beings standing side by side, united in local relation, or even in a common conception. What is suggested is an active relation of intercourse. The distinct personality of the Word is therefore not obscurely intimated. From all eternity the Word has been with God as a fellow: He who in the very beginning already “was,” “was” also in communion with God. Though He was thus in some sense a second along with God, He was nevertheless not a seperate being from God: “And the Word was” –still the eternal “was” –“God.” In some sense distinguishable from God, He was in an equally true sense identical with God. There is but one eternal God; this eternal God, the Word is; in whatever sense we may distinguish Him from the God whom He is “with,” He is yet not another than this God, but Himself is this God. The predicate “God” occupies the position of emphasis in this great declaration, and is so placed in the sentence as to be thrown up in sharp contrast with the phrase “with God,” as if to prevent inadequate inferences as to the nature of the Word being drawn even momentarily from that phrase. John would have us realize that what the Word was in eternity was not merely God’s coeternal fellow, but the eternal God’s self." B.B. Warfield The Person and Work of Christ

"A similar ascription is more common in the Johannine writings, and for the most part incontestable. Jn. 1:1 says of the Pre-existent: kai theos en ho logos…The lack of the article, which is grammatically necessary in 1:1, is striking here, and reminds us of Philonic usage. The Logos who became flesh and revealed the invisible God was a divine being, God by nature. The man born blind has some sense of this when, after his healing, he falls down in believing adoration before Christ, who addresses him with the divine “I” (Jn. 9:38f). The final veil is removed, however, when the Risen Lord discloses Himself to Thomas and the astonished disciple exclaims: ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou (Jn. 20:28). In Jn. 1:1 we have Christology: He is God in Himself. Here we have the revelation of Christ: He is God for believers. Kittle's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament vol 3:105-106.

"And the Word was God (kai theos en ho logos). By exact and careful language John denied Sabellianism by not saying ho theos en ho logos. That would mean that all of God was expressed in ho logos and the terms would be interchangeable, each having the article. The subject is made plain by the article (ho logos) and the predicate without it (theos) just as in John 4:24 pneuma ho theos can only mean “God is spirit,” not “spirit is God.” So in 1 John 4:16 ho theos agape estin can only mean “God is love,” not “love is God” as a so-called Christian scientist would confusedly say. For the article with the predicate see Robertson, Grammar, pp. 767f. So in John 1:14 ho Logos sarx egeneto, “the Word became flesh,” not “the flesh became Word.” Luther argues that here John disposes of Arianism also because the Logos was eternally God, fellowship of the Father and Son, what Origen called the Eternal Generation of the Son (each necessary to the other). Thus in the Trinity we see personal fellowship on an equality. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, vol. 5, pp. 4-5.

"A word should be said concerning the use and non-use of the article in John 1:1, where a narrow path is safely followed by the author. “The Word was God.” It both God and Word were articular, they would be coextensive and equally distributed and so interchangeable. But the separate personality of the Logos is affirmed by the construction used and Sabellianism is denied. If God were articular and Logos non-articular, the affirmation would be that God was Logos, but not that the Logos was God. As it is, John asserts that in the Pre-incarnate state the Logos was God, though the Father was greater than the Son (John 14:28). The Logos became flesh (1:14), and not the Father. But the Incarnate Logos was really “God only Begotten in the bosom of the Father” (1:18 correct text)". A. T. Robertson, The Minister and His Greek New Testament, (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1977) pp. 67-68.

"To summarize: The phrase kai theos en ho logos is most literally translated as “and the Word was God.” (Robertson, Bruce). The reason that theos is anarthrous is both that it is the predicate nominative (Robertson, Dana and Mantey) and that it is demanded by the fact that if it had the article, it would be then interchangeable with logos, which is contextually impossible. (Robertson, Dana and Mantey, Bruce, Nicoll) Colwell’s rule also comes into play at this point. We have seen that the majority of scholarship sees the theos as indicating the nature of the Word, that He is God as to His nature. The noun form is here used, not the adjectival theios, which would be required to simply classify the Word as “god-like.”
Hence, John 1:1 teaches that the Word is eternal (the imperfect form of eimi, en), that He has always been in communion with God (pros ton theon), and hence is an individual and recognizable as such, and that, as to His essential nature, He is God. Anything less departs from the teaching of John, and is not Biblical." James R. White John 1:1 Meaning and Translation – Vintage

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Again opinion.

You have already been shown that this does not have to be translated that way.

We know the Greek Logos did not have that meaning.

The Encyclopedia article explained this.

And even Other CHRISTIAN groups do not agree with the Jesus as God idea.

And of course they have also done their research, and have their favorite theologians whom don't agree with yours.

We don't agree with your sources, and you don't agree with our sources and info, - so, - we are at an impasse.




*

djhwoodwerks said:

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what that means!



So, the ONLY way one gets born again is by ones own works? How does one get "born of Spirit" by ones own works? What about these verses?

John 1:12-13 (ESV Strong's) 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (ESV Strong's) 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

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Exactly--and when a mortal tells you, you are in Christ--does not make it true. Accomplishing Eph 4:22-24 makes it true.

The bible shares exactly who are the children of God or the child of the devil at 1 John 3--It says---Its impossible for a child of God to practice even 1 sin.

So that is saying all who practice even one sin, is not a child of God. Seems many blind guides out there lying.

Example--Joel Osteen stands on tv in front of thousands and lies right to all of them, telling them if they say 3 lines of prayer--you are born again=100% lie--He doesn't even know them, he has 0 clue if they have done Eph 4:22-24--but he did declare he is worth over 70 million $$$$) asking for the tithe after that lie.

kjw47 said:

Exactly--and when a mortal tells you, you are in Christ--does not make it true. Accomplishing Eph 4:22-24 makes it true.

The bible shares exactly who are the children of God or the child of the devil at 1 John 3--It says---Its impossible for a child of God to practice even 1 sin.

So that is saying all who practice even one sin, is not a child of God. Seems many blind guides out there lying.

Example--Joel Osteen stands on tv in front of thousands and lies right to all of them, telling them if they say 3 lines of prayer--you are born again=100% lie--He doesn't even know them, he has 0 clue if they have done Eph 4:22-24--but he did declare he is worth over 70 million $$$$) asking for the tithe after that lie.

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1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

What about all the 'sins' the evil Biblical god has committed?

JJ50 said:

What about all the 'sins' the evil Biblical god has committed?

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If the Scribes and Pharisees, who witnessed first hand Christ's life from birth to death, could find no sin in Him, what sin do you accuse Him of?

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”

48 The Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’ 53 Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’; 55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

kjw47 said:

Exactly--and when a mortal tells you, you are in Christ--does not make it true. Accomplishing Eph 4:22-24 makes it true.

The bible shares exactly who are the children of God or the child of the devil at 1 John 3--It says---Its impossible for a child of God to practice even 1 sin.

So that is saying all who practice even one sin, is not a child of God. Seems many blind guides out there lying.

Example--Joel Osteen stands on tv in front of thousands and lies right to all of them, telling them if they say 3 lines of prayer--you are born again=100% lie--He doesn't even know them, he has 0 clue if they have done Eph 4:22-24--but he did declare he is worth over 70 million $$$$) asking for the tithe after that lie.

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Are you confessing that you are not a child of God? Wait, you can't bee, because Jesus is nothing to you except a means by where YOUR death is accepted as YOUR sacrifice.

If you have a bad thought towards a person/s 3 times a week, you are practicing sin!

I will almost guarantee your beloved 'slave' is worth triple that!

Rick B said:

If the Scribes and Pharisees, who witnessed first hand Christ's life from birth to death, could find no sin in Him, what sin do you accuse Him of?

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”

48 The Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’ 53 Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’; 55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

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I wasn't referring to the very human Jesus, who obviously had flaws like the rest of us if the trashing of the temple, and frightening a load of pigs over a cliff was anything to by. I was talking about the god featured in the Bible who is a psycho if the deeds attributed to it had any basis in reality.

JJ50 said:

I wasn't referring to the very human Jesus, who obviously had flaws like the rest of us if the trashing of the temple, and frightening a load of pigs over a cliff was anything to by. I was talking about the god featured in the Bible who is a psycho if the deeds attributed to it had any basis in reality.

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What obvious flaws did Jesus have?

For those who have expressed that because Jesus is referred to as the "Son of God" and the "Son of man" He was not therefore God I offer this short rejoinder.

"Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name” (Jn. 20.30-31). The apostle John wrote his gospel with the expressed intention of convincing his readers to believe in Jesus Christ. Part of this belief is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. On the phrase “Son of God” James Buswell writes: “Christ is called ‘Son of God’ scores of times in the New Testament. I take the key passage on this subject to be John 5.18, On this account rather the Judeans sought to kill him because he called himself equal with God (Jn. 5.18). In Jewish usage the term ‘son of . . .’ did not generally imply any subordination, but rather equality and identity of nature. Thus Bar Kokba, who led the Jewish revolt 132-135 A. D. in the reign of Hadrian, was called by a name which means ‘Son of the star.’ It is supposed that he took this name to identify himself as the very star predicted in Numbers 24:17. The name Son of Consolation (Acts 4.36) doubtless means ‘The Consoler.’ ‘Sons of Thunder’ (Mark 3.17) probably means ‘Thunderous Men.’ ‘Son of Man’ especially as applied to Christ in Daniel 7:13 and constantly in the New Testament, essentially means ‘The Representative of Man.’ Thus for Christ to say, ‘I am the Son of God’ (Jn. 10.36) was understood by His contemporaries as identifying Himself as God, equal with the Father, in an unqualified sense” (Systematic Theology, p. 105).

The expression “Son of God” is used in the NT as a description of Christ’s deity. For example, in Jn. 5.17-18 Jesus says, “My Father is working until now and I Myself am working. For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.” The Jews understood that to be God’s Son was to be equal to God. Notice Jesus does not correct their reasoning, but presents a stunning defense of His claim in verses 19-47. Likewise, in Jn. 10.30-39 there occurs a similar situation where the Jews to whom Jesus speaks with understand His claim to be the Son of God as a direct claim to deity, and, as before, Jesus does not try to correct their reasoning, but again presents a defense of His claim."

Context of John 5: 9b-18
Now it was the Sabbath on that day. 10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.” 11 But he answered them, “He who made me well was the one who said to me, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk.’” 12 They asked him, “Who is the man who said to you, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk’?” 13 But the man who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had slipped away while there was a crowd in that place. 14 Afterward Jesus *found him in the temple and said to him, “Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you.” 15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. 16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.” 18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

IMPORTANCE OF THE DEITY OF CHRIST

"On this subject Boettner has well summarized: “The Deity of Christ is thus taught in Scripture so explicitly and repeatedly that the question is settled for all those who accept the Bible as the word of God. There can be no question but that Jesus Himself as He is portrayed in the New Testament records presented Himself as God incarnate. Nor is there any doubt but that the writers of the New Testament personally held this same high estimate of Him and worshiped Him as God, or that the Church in all ages in all its great branches, whether Roman Catholic, Greek Catholic, Lutheran, Reformed, Presbyterian, Episcopal, Methodist, Baptist, or Congregational, as its faith has been expressed through its creeds and hymns and devotional writings, has likewise conceived of Him. And throughout the ages the great mass of those who have read the New Testament have come to the same conclusion.

In view of this great mass of evidence we are completely unable to understand how any fair-minded person can rise up and say, as do the Unitarians and Modernists, that Christ was not Deity, or that He did not claim Deity. In fact, we must go farther and say that such opposition appears to be based on nothing other than blind opposition and a determination not to accept that evidence no matter how clear and strong it may be. Any denial of the Deity of Christ, together with the implication that He was merely a great teacher or prophet, gives one a viewpoint other than that from which the Scriptures are written and makes it impossible for him to comprehend the system of truth that is revealed in Scripture. Such denial throws one out of harmony with the great Source of wisdom and truth, which is God, and causes him to attempt to explain intellectually that which can only be discerned spiritually.

The pre-eminent importance of the doctrine of the Deity of Christ in the Christian system is shown by the fact that this is the test by which we are to distinguish between true and false prophets, between spirits which are of God and spirits which are not of God. The Apostle John, after giving the warning, ‘Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world,’ adds these words: ‘Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God; every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God, and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof we have heard that it cometh, and now it is in the world already,’ 1 John 4:1-3. Here we are plainly told that every one who acknowledges that Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and that every one who denies the Deity of Christ is antichrist. Regardless of how eloquent the speaker may be, how pleasing or magnetic his personality, how widespread his in influence, or even how sincere his motives, the prophet or preacher or teacher who denies the Deity of Christ is branded in Scripture as a false prophet or preacher or teacher. And to the same effect Paul says: ‘No man speaking in the Spirit of God saith, Jesus is anathema; and no man can say, Jesus is Lord, but in the Holy Spirit,’1 Cor. 12:3. Here Paul declares that only by the spiritual insight which the Holy Spirit gives as He regenerates a soul can that soul form a true judgment of the Deity of Christ. No one recognizes Christ as Lord and as his Lord unless he has been born again. The man who looks at Jesus only with his own unenlightened eyes sees in Him only a man, perhaps a great man with many lofty principles and ideals, yet a man who has claimed too much for Himself and who has committed blasphemy by calling himself the Son of God. But when the Holy Spirit comes into his life, renewing and enlightening him spiritually, he then sees himself a guilty, condemned sinner who merits nothing but God’s wrath and punishment. But he is also given to see, by the eye of faith, that Jesus is the Son of God, that He lived on this earth, that He was crucified for the sins of His people, that He arose from the grave, and that He now reigns from heaven. Never does a mortal man see the Lord Jesus thus, and never does he accept Him as his Lord, unless it is given him by the Holy Spirit. Thus Paul says that no person can acknowledge Jesus as Lord unless he has been enlightened by the Holy Spirit. And, incidentally, in these words he also tells us that the person who does thus acknowledge Jesus as Lord has been regenerated and is therefore assured of salvation." The Deity of Christ by Michael Bremmer

Rick B said:

What obvious flaws did Jesus have?

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As I said before trashing the Temple, and frightening pigs over a cliff when he was playing a silly game of exorcism hocus pocus, didn't show the guy up in a good light. There was nothing to suggest he compensated the farmer for the loss of his pigs. When he was a kid he took off without telling his parents where he was going and ended up in the Temple. If I had been his parents he would have be grounded for a very long time, for causing such anxiety. Jesus obviously had a charismatic personality so he could persuade the gullible that he was some sort of god. It appears his family and those that knew him best didn't rate him in that way!

JJ50 said:

As I said before trashing the Temple, and frightening pigs over a cliff when he was playing a silly game of exorcism hocus pocus, didn't show the guy up in a good light. There was nothing to suggest he compensated the farmer for the loss of his pigs. When he was a kid he took off without telling his parents where he was going and ended up in the Temple. If I had been his parents he would have be grounded for a very long time, for causing such anxiety. Jesus obviously had a charismatic personality so he could persuade the gullible that he was some sort of god. It appears his family and those that knew him best didn't rate him in that way!

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I see.

JJ50 said:

As I said before trashing the Temple,

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Hadn't the moneylenders already "trashed" it? Whose Temple was it anyways, and when you have dirt in your house do you kindly ask it to leave or do you sweep it away?

JJ50 said:

and frightening pigs over a cliff when he was playing a silly game of exorcism hocus pocus, didn't show the guy up in a good light. There was nothing to suggest he compensated the farmer for the loss of his pigs.

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1 Chronicle 29:13-14 Anything we have is through unmerited grace.

JJ50 said:

When he was a kid he took off without telling his parents where he was going and ended up in the Temple. If I had been his parents he would have be grounded for a very long time, for causing such anxiety.

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I believe He was following his Father’s orders. Besides, if an angel of the Lord appeared and told you that your wife was bearing His son, you most likely tend not to worry. If He could see Israel through the centuries, seeing his son into adulthood shouldn't be much of a hassle.

JJ50 said:

Jesus obviously had a charismatic personality so he could persuade the gullible that he was some sort of god. It appears his family and those that knew him best didn't rate him in that way!

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Then you witness the words spoken at Luke 4:24:

"Truly I tell you," he continued, "no prophet is accepted in his hometown.”

However, this is far and away from thread theme.

Rick B said:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

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Its the practice or willfull sin that will not be forgiven-Hebrews 10:26--Matthew 7
22-23 a practice of sin = a worker of iniquity( lawlessness)--the only ones doing the things mentioned in those verses are done by those told they are Christian, Jesus said-MANY- will hear those negative words at judgement time.
Not one is perfect--small sins, never the large ones by true followers --though their have been exceptions.
Jesus taught many x-- GO SIN NO MORE-he meant it--righteousness= a practice of not sinning to the best of ones abilities.

In John 14:1 The Bible Declares Jesus is God.

In John 14-17 we have the "Upper room discourse" between Jesus and His disciples. During this time, the night before His crucifixion, Jesus comforts His disciples, further reveals His oneness with the Father, explains the role of the Spirit and the Spirit's coming as another helper, relates how He Is the Vine and His followers are the branches, teaches the disciples’ relation to each other and the world, Jesus foretells His death and resurrection, and ends with Christ's "High Priestly Prayer" and the future glory of all who believe.

John 14:1 “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me
Μὴ ταρασσέσθω ὑμῶν ἡ καρδία· πιστεύετε εἰς τὸν θεόν, καὶ εἰς ἐμὲ πιστεύετε.
You believe in God also on Me believe

The Greek in this passage can be understood, in the last clause, as either both sections being imperative or the first imperative and the second indicative. Scholars go either way. Personally I agree more with both being imperative because the context implies its stronger possibility. Immediately prior to this Jesus states "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another." 13:34 And "Do not let your heart be troubled" 14:1a
However, no matter which you prefer the text is clear. The belief in Jesus Christ is to have the same quality as the belief in God the Father. Exactly on the same level requiring both being deity.

Just because the Bible claims something to be true doesn't mean it is. That book is far from infallible.

Brickjectivity said:

Let us attempt to steer back towards the topic of the declaration. There is clearly no declaration which makes Jesus more divine than you or I. You are using argument to imply the Jesus is God in your opinion, because there is no declaration to quote. You make the odd choice of quoting from John, the gospel which explicitly points out the divinity in all of Jesus disciples, and it is John, the gospel in which Jesus prays for us to be one with the Father and with himself as he and the Father are one. As much as he is the Father so can you be, according to Jesus prayer in chapter 17 of John. How then is it a declaration that Jesus is any more divine than any other saint? What do you believe about that?

About your last comment about God making the prayer. Did you know Jesus prayed to be spared from death according to the author of Hebrews? (Hebrews 5:7) Yet if Peter objects to Jesus death Jesus says to him "Get behind me, Satan!" (Matt 16:23) So when Peter objects it is from Satan, but when Jesus objects to his death the objection is from God? That is what you suggest when you say God is making the prayers that Jesus makes. We all wish to live, and we all pray to live. Mortals would make such a prayer to be kept alive, but God is already immortal and has no need to live. I think what we see here is a conflict between Jesus spiritual desire and his flesh.

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I believe the quotes are declarations. How could you see it otherwise?

I believe there are two reasons. !. Jesus is without sin. Even with the Paraclete, saints still have some sin. 2. If He were like us He would have a spirit that is not God and He would have had to force that spirit to relinquish control and that is not something that God does. We have the Paraclete by choice. He is never forced upon us.

I believe you answered your own question. The Spirit of God in Jesus has a plan to go to the cross and opposition to that plan comes from the enemy, Satan. The flesh does not want to die but it is not the enemy, Satan but is simply at odds with God's plan but under the sovereignty of the Spirit of God.

djhwoodwerks said:

"For the wages sin pays is death.--- thus all who died paid the wages of sin."

Romans 6:23 (ESV Strong's) 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You are so deceived, you don't even see it.

Read it a few times if you have to to understand what it is saying, and show us where that says, when you die you have paid the wage of sin, it doesn't say anything about death paying the wage of sin. The wage you EARN from sin, is death.

"THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH"

That says, YOU SIN, YOU DIE. It doesn't say, YOU DIE, YOU PAID THE WAGE OF SIN

You work, the wage YOU ARE paid is money. You sin, the wage YOU ARE paid is death

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I believe we can turn this around a little and say that one must be without sin to get eternal life. So it might be reasonable to say that temporal life (in which a person dies) allows sin.

kjw47 said:

The ones brought through Har-mageddon, have washed their robes white( not in perfection) to the utmost of their abilities say-NO to sin everytime they can. But have stopped doing these-1Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:17-19

These are who Jesus covers over their sin. They will never taste death.

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It is essential to go to the text of Scripture which is relevant to the subject.
Revelation 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

It is the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ on the cross ("blood of the Lamb") that is the means by which their sins are forgiven and their robes made white. Not self-effort or good works.

1 Cor. 9-11: 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
They were washed. Not they washed themselves. They were sanctified. they were justified. They were acted upon by Christ and the Spirit.

Gal. 5:17-19 The context of this passage is Paul's warning to the Galatian church against sinning, of which we all need to heed. To continue in unrepentant sin is a sign of not being born again. Christians do have besetting sins of which they honestly repent of and yet return to out of the weakness of the flesh. This war of the spirit against the flesh can last for a long time before it is finally won. The passage ends in this exhortation: 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

kjw47 said:

gtell

Mo post was about those who are born again--The ONLY way one gets born again= Ephesians 4:22-24-- Strip off the old personality( practice of sin) and put on the new personality--Righteousness( saying no to sin to the best of ones ability) this is washing ones robe white--the only ones who are actually born again. One is not--born again because they say 3 lines of prayer and a mortal tells them they are born again--it is not truth. Then they ask for( demand) the tithe.

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Eph.4:22-24 does not address regeneration (born-again). It is an exhortation to Godly living. Eph.1 deals with the cause and effect of regeneration and it is not in the will or actions of man.
Eph.1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

All of grace. Not of our effort.

kjw47 said:

Its the practice or willfull sin that will not be forgiven-Hebrews 10:26--Matthew 7
22-23 a practice of sin = a worker of iniquity( lawlessness)--the only ones doing the things mentioned in those verses are done by those told they are Christian, Jesus said-MANY- will hear those negative words at judgement time.
Not one is perfect--small sins, never the large ones by true followers --though their have been exceptions.
Jesus taught many x-- GO SIN NO MORE-he meant it--righteousness= a practice of not sinning to the best of ones abilities.

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Sin, no matter small or large, even one sin disqualifies one from heaven because it is a breaking of the Law of the Holy God. Only the imputed righteousness of Christ to His elect brings about salvation. That includes the complete forgiveness of all their sins past, present and future.

The practice of willful sin is a sign on being a lost sinner, even on who professes and practices the Christian faith. Professes not possesses. That is what Heb.10:26-31 is about.
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

1. As unto the words wherein the sin and state of such men is expressed, “If we sin wilfully,” he puts himself among them, as is his manner in comminations: both to show that there is no respect of persons in this matter, but those who have equally sinned shall be equally punished; and to take off all appearance of severity towards them, seeing he speaks nothing of this nature but on such suppositions as wherein, if he himself were concerned, he pronounceth it against himself also. “We sinning,” or, “if we sin ἑκουσίως “wilfully,” say we: our former translations, “willingly;” which we have now avoided, lest we should give countenance unto a supposition that there is no recovery after any voluntary sin. “If we sin wilfully;” that is, obstinately, maliciously, and with despite; which is the nature of the sin itself, as is declared verse 29: but the word doth not require, nor will scarce bear any such sense. “Willingly,” is of choice, without surprisal, compulsion, or fear; and this is all that the word will bear.

The season and circumstance which state the sin intended is, “after we have received the knowledge of the truth.” There is no question but that by “the truth,” the apostle intends the doctrine of the gospel; and the “receiving” of it is, upon the conviction of its being truth, to take on us the outward profession of it. Only there is an emphasis in that word, τὴν ἐπίγνωσιν. This word is not used anywhere to express the mere conceptions or notions of the mind about truth, but such an acknowledgment of it as ariseth from some sense of its power and excellency. This, therefore, is the description of the persons concerning whom this sin is supposed: They were such as unto whom the gospel had been preached; who, upon conviction of its truth, and sense of its power, had taken upon them the public profession of it. And this is all that is required to the constitution of this state. And what is so required may be reduced to one of these two heads:

(1.) The solemn dedication of themselves unto Christ in and by their baptism.
(2.) Their solemn joining themselves unto the church, and continuance in the duties of its worship, Acts 2:41-42.
On this opening of the words, it is evident what sin it is that is intended, against which this heavy doom is denounced; and that on these two considerations:
(1.) That the head of the precedent exhortation is, that we should “hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering,” Hebrews 10:23; and the means of continuing in that profession, Hebrews 10:24-25. Wherefore the sin against this exhortation is, the relinquishment and renouncing of the profession of the faith, with all acts and duties thereunto belonging.
(2.) The state opposite unto this sin, that which is contrary unto it, is “receiving the knowledge of the truth;” which what is required thereunto we have now declared. Wherefore the sin here intended, is plainly a relinquishment and renunciation of the truth of the gospel and the promises thereof, with all duties thereunto belonging, after we have been convinced of its truth, and avowed its power and excellency. There is no more required but that this be done ἑκοσοίως, “willingly;” as,
(1.) Not upon a sudden surprisal and temptation, as Peter denied Christ;
(2.) Not on those compulsions and fears which may work a present dissimulation, without an internal rejection of the gospel;
(3.) Not through darkness, ignorance making an impression for a season on the minds and reasonings of men: which things, though exceedingly evil and dangerous, may befall them who yet contract not the guilt of this crime.
But it is required thereunto, that men who thus sin, do it,
(1.) By choice, and of their own accord, from the internal pravity of their own minds, and an evil heart of unbelief to depart from the living God.
(2.) That they do it by and with the preference of another way of religion, and a resting therein, before or above the gospel.
(3.) That whereas there were two things which were the foundation of the profession of the gospel;
[1.] The blood of the covenant, or the blood of the sacrifice of Christ, with the atonement made thereby; and
[2.] The dispensation of the Spirit of grace; these they did openly renounce, and declared that there was nothing of God in them, as we shall see on verse 29. Such were they who fell off from the gospel unto Judaism in’those days. Such are they whom the apostle here describeth, as is evident in the context. I will say no more unto the sin at present, because I must treat of it under its aggravations on verse 29.

John Owen on Hebrews

Muffled said:

I believe there are two reasons. !. Jesus is without sin. Even with the Paraclete, saints still have some sin.

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Clearly Jesus is judged and put to death. Hebrews points out he's imperfect before his death. So are we according to the same writer.

Muffled said:

2. If He were like us He would have a spirit that is not God and He would have had to force that spirit to relinquish control and that is not something that God does. We have the Paraclete by choice. He is never forced upon us.

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Your argument is squishy and relies upon belief in ghosts, and I think you have to do that to support your position, and that means it is a weakened position. It is a position that depends upon taking demon possession superstitiously, and I cannot help you with that except to point out that in the Hellenist times all viruses and all invisible connections from political persuasions to the flu were all called demons. This was just common speech for medical issues and political issues, but using the term demon did not imply that a person believed in ghosts nor is there any reason to believe that Jesus would have except by taking things he says literally in odd ways.

Muffled said:

I believe you answered your own question. The Spirit of God in Jesus has a plan to go to the cross and opposition to that plan comes from the enemy, Satan. The flesh does not want to die but it is not the enemy, Satan but is simply at odds with God's plan but under the sovereignty of the Spirit of God.

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Your argument is buried by its literalism which causes the Bible to contradict itself. If the "Spirit of God in Jesus has a plan to go to the cross" and "Satan is simply at odds with God's plan" then where is Satan when Jesus prays to be spared from dying? Why then if he is God does Jesus pray to be saved from death? If both Satan and God cannot be in the same person, then Jesus prayed to be spared from death why? The author of Hebrews says Jesus is imperfect before he dies. That explains it neatly. James says that temptation comes from the sin nature within us. None of this squares with your literalism about Satan and demons.

Muffled said:

I believe the quotes are declarations. How could you see it otherwise?

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(NIV) Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ” (John 20:17) Note he says "To my God and your God."