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Can You Forgive Anything?

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Can I forgive anything? Sure. Will I forgive just anything? No. Why should I forgive those who do me harm and have no intentions of stopping?
It's evil, and hopeless.
If you ask me, belief is evil and hopeless. Why should I forgive it when so often it votes to strip me of my civil rights and liberties?
Strange. The Doors sang people are strange.
Uh...he didn't sing that people are strange, he said people are strange when you're a stranger. No one remembers your name because they're strange, they don't remember it because you're strange.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The Our Father prayer is probably the best known of all the Christian prayers. The words go,
"Our Father who art in heaven
Hallowed be thy name
Thy kingdom come
Thy will be done
On earth, as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread
And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trespass against us
And lead us not into temptation
But deliver us from evil
For thine is the kingdom, the power, and glory forever"

Thus, I ask can you forgive anything?

christian_forgiveness.png~original
What would forgiveness entails in terms of actual action?
If somebody breaks into my house I should not call the police and help them apprehend the culprit?
In what manner does my actions change between forgiving and not forgiving?
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
What would forgiveness entails in terms of actual action?
If somebody breaks into my house I should not call the police and help them apprehend the culprit?
In what manner does my actions change between forgiving and not forgiving?

Heh. I don't even know how to answer. It's like you missed common sense 101.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
How so?

Hitler ♥ eugenics that was inspired from Darwin.
He speaks in praise of Luther in Mein Kampf. Luther's "On the Jews and their Lies" became standard reading for Nazi party supporters and was quoted extensively by Nazi leaders throughout that era. They even scheduled Kristallnacht (which was modelled on how Luther argued the Jews should be treated) on Luther's birthday as a symbolic measure.

“The anti-Semitism of the new movement (Christian Social movement)
was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.”

[Adolf Hitler, “Mein Kampf”, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

BTW: it's ridiculous to argue that eugenics was inspired by Darwin. Darwin's theories argued that fitness would prevail naturally; even setting aside the twisted ideas of "fitness" used in eugenics programs, the idea that we need to make fitness happen through artificial means is the exact opposite of what evolutionary theory says.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Heh. I don't even know how to answer. It's like you missed common sense 101.
I have abandoned common sense as i do not find it useful.

My question: How does my actions change between me forgiving or not forgiving a person (like one who robs me). If the actions I take do not change, what is the utility of the concept of forgiveness?
 

Ricktheheretic

"Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law"
I believe in infinite forgiveness. I don't think god could be so cruel as to condemn a man for all eternity for what he did for a finite number of years. I personally would forgive even the worst criminals, because I don't see how vengeance makes life better for anyone.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
It's the common definition.
No, it isn't.

Those sound more like legal terms that have nothing to do with how you feel and more to do with the extent that the law refrains from punishing someone.
They're more associated with the concept of forgiveness, and forgiveness is much more than calming down after being upset. The law enshrines forgiveness in one way, but that doesn't make forgiveness only a legal term.

Forgiveness can't come about unless you have feelings of anger or resentment towards something. The whole point is that you shouldn't harbor those feelings because they cause further harm.
Not anger or resentment, necessarily; forgiveness comes out of being wronged, either directly or indirectly. People often get angry about being wronged, but we can still feel wronged without feeling angry about it.

Instead of practicing Ahimsa, you enter into and perpetuate violence and the cycle of suffering.
There's a Japanese expression that I agree with: "the killing sword is the life-giving sword." Sometimes, the way to the least violence overall is to use violence to stop someone from committing even more violence.

The question of whether you should get angry in the first place is a separate question with it's own complexities. Hitler is dead (more than 50 years dead). Are you still angry with him? Who's going to pay for your anger? If you found out Hitler had children would you want to hunt them down and kill them because of how you felt about Hitler?
Who's going to pay for your anger? Your next door neighbor? O sorry man, I was just thinking about how horrible Hitler was and the terrible genocide that occurred. I'm sorry I ran over your dog. Give it up man. Let it go.
Are you even trying to make sense?

Back up, stop assuming things about what I feel or believe, and try again.

The are healthy and unhealthy ways to express anger. Healthy: campaigning against Noe-Nazis; unhealthy: running over your neighbour's dog.

BTW: is that how you express anger when you have it? Do you end up lashing out with murderous rage at people and animals? Because if you do, you really ought to see someone to work on your coping skills.

But if not, you should have known better than to portray someone else that way.
Some people think "caring" means "getting angry". They are confused. You don't have to be angry to want to do the right thing. If you have to get angry to want to do the right thing, then something is wrong man.
How we feel, positive or negative, motivates us. If you're content with anything, you'll put up with anything.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
No, it isn't.
If we don't agree on the definition, then we are at an impasse. I cannot agree with you and you cannot agree with me.

Not anger or resentment, necessarily; forgiveness comes out of being wronged, either directly or indirectly. People often get angry about being wronged, but we can still feel wronged without feeling angry about it.
I think you need to post a definition for forgiveness so I can understand what you are talking about. Right now, you aren't making any sense to me. Forgiveness can't change the past. So forgiveness can't ever change that you were "wronged". In other words, forgiveness doesn't make past actions become "right". How does that even work?

There's a Japanese expression that I agree with: "the killing sword is the life-giving sword." Sometimes, the way to the least violence overall is to use violence to stop someone from committing even more violence.
I agree.

Are you even trying to make sense?
Back up, stop assuming things about what I feel or believe, and try again.
The are healthy and unhealthy ways to express anger. Healthy: campaigning against Noe-Nazis; unhealthy: running over your neighbour's dog.
BTW: is that how you express anger when you have it? Do you end up lashing out with murderous rage at people and animals? Because if you do, you really ought to see someone to work on your coping skills.
But if not, you should have known better than to portray someone else that way.
Anger and resentment lead to violence and suffering. Do you hate neo-Nazis?

How we feel, positive or negative, motivates us. If you're content with anything, you'll put up with anything.
Thank You.
There are many feelings positive or negative inside of us.
Anger and resentment are ones that can be forgiven.
Worry and concern aren't.
Are you motivated against neo-Nazis because of anger or resentment?
I am not angry or resentful towards you. In fact, I'm really enjoying this debate.
But, I do think you are wrong about what forgiveness is.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
I have abandoned common sense as i do not find it useful.

My question: How does my actions change between me forgiving or not forgiving a person (like one who robs me). If the actions I take do not change, what is the utility of the concept of forgiveness?

People's actions do change when they are motivated by anger or resentment (road rage for example). If you've never acted out of anger, then you are blessed. If you ever have acted out of anger, then you should understand that your actions were different because you were angry.

The ultimate utility of forgiveness comes not merely in terms of the actions you are inclined to, but in terms of your personal inner life.
 
The Our Father prayer is probably the best known of all the Christian prayers. The words go,
"Our Father who art in heaven
Hallowed be thy name
Thy kingdom come
Thy will be done
On earth, as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread
And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trespass against us
And lead us not into temptation
But deliver us from evil
For thine is the kingdom, the power, and glory forever"

Thus, I ask can you forgive anything?


I would say yes, as Jesus must have. I feel like if he had not totally forgiven his accusers then he would not been able to rise from the dead. Forgiveness is not a ticket to heaven, its a "separation point" from the past, its a clean slate for you and whoever you are forgiving. It doesn't mean wrong is OK or that it still may be judged it not repented of, but it lays a new foundation for right actions. Forgiveness is a must if you choose to advance in the beneficial use of the kingdom of heaven
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
I would say yes, as Jesus must have. I feel like if he had not totally forgiven his accusers then he would not been able to rise from the dead. Forgiveness is not a ticket to heaven, its a "separation point" from the past, its a clean slate for you and whoever you are forgiving. It doesn't mean wrong is OK or that it still may be judged it not repented of, but it lays a new foundation for right actions. Forgiveness is a must if you choose to advance in the beneficial use of the kingdom of heaven

The death of Jesus is a very telling point. My interpretation is it wasn't the physical anguish that he could not stand, but seeing all the sins of humankind such as that which we are suppose to see or a replay of our own lives we see during our own deaths.

As for Our Father prayer, it's the prayer that Jesus taught his disciples. The key is to be sincere. It's much easier to say it than to actually live it.
 
The death of Jesus is a very telling point. My interpretation is it wasn't the physical anguish that he could not stand, but seeing all the sins of humankind such as that which we are suppose to see or a replay of our own lives we see during our own deaths.

As for Our Father prayer, it's the prayer that Jesus taught his disciples. The key is to be sincere. It's much easier to say it than to actually live it.
Thanks. No doubt he became all, overcame all, and rose with all that will rise out of our own corruption with him. He is the Christ and he yearns to quicken in us as us. May we surrender to the cry of sonship. Forgiveness makes way for innocence, innocence removes the accuser thus bringing confidence in prayer. Blessings, Tony
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
The Our Father prayer is probably the best known of all the Christian prayers. The words go,
"Our Father who art in heaven
Hallowed be thy name
Thy kingdom come
Thy will be done
On earth, as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread
And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trespass against us
And lead us not into temptation
But deliver us from evil
For thine is the kingdom, the power, and glory forever"

Thus, I ask can you forgive anything?

christian_forgiveness.png~original


I can't.
 
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