May a christian explore hinduism, buddhism, paganism etc

Paul argues that Jesus fulfilled the entire old testament, which is also given as "The Law" in pauline scripture. Does that mean that now a christian can also look for other gods to get to know them? Because, if you peruse pagan life, they also have experiences of their gods. They get visions, answers to prayers, visitations, healings, etc. So these gods exist, but some christians claim they are only demons. Is that true? And if not, can a christian explore, for example, Zeus or Krishna, etc?

trablano said:

Paul argues that Jesus fulfilled the entire old testament, which is also given as "The Law" in pauline scripture. Does that mean that now a christian can also look for other gods to get to know them? Because, if you peruse pagan life, they also have experiences of their gods. They get visions, answers to prayers, visitations, healings, etc. So these gods exist, but some christians claim they are only demons. Is that true? And if not, can a christian explore, for example, Zeus or Krishna, etc?

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I see no harm in exploring the truth of other religions. Arguably, one of the biggest threats to world peace is religious bigotry and intolerance. Any efforts to break down such barriers are positive.

You might want to check out some of Pauls' writings, where he basically says it's ok to join into pagan type things as long as you don't actually believe them. If you believe in false gods you've done wrong. Paul put a warning on it, that you should not engage in pagan things that might cause someone else to stumble and believe in false gods.

So that's the problem is if someone else sees you doing it, even if you don't believe, it might cause them to believe and stumble.

1 Cor 8:10 For if someone with a weak conscience sees you, with all your knowledge, eating in an idol's temple, won't that person be emboldened to eat what is sacrificed to idols?

trablano said:

Paul argues that Jesus fulfilled the entire old testament, which is also given as "The Law" in pauline scripture. Does that mean that now a christian can also look for other gods to get to know them? Because, if you peruse pagan life, they also have experiences of their gods. They get visions, answers to prayers, visitations, healings, etc. So these gods exist, but some christians claim they are only demons. Is that true? And if not, can a christian explore, for example, Zeus or Krishna, etc?

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I think its with good intent but fallacious and leads to the opposite conclusion you intend. Your assumption about fulfillment (which I disagree with the way you are interpreting it) leads to the exclusion of anyone who does not say the right magick words. By this assumption and interpretation you place a shibboleth upon everyone else, an imposed exclusion shibboleth where they have to be able to believe the right things. This in turn boils down to having the 'Right' human teachers. Suddenly the Holy Spirit cannot go where it wills. Suddenly it is you or I determining where the Holy Spirit may go, a contradiction which shows the paradox resulting from using 'Fulfil' as if it means 'Complete' or 'Replace'. It leads away from Jesus concepts and towards some sort of half-Judaism. This reverses the entire idea central to the gospels of opening up the house of faith to gentiles. If by 'Fulfil' one were to recognize its (I suggest correct) meaning of 'Similar to' or 'Informed by' then you'd soon find yourself returning I think to a more reasonable interpretation. Things in the Bible make more sense then. It makes more sense across the board and recognizes that a promise is a promise. Fulfillment is not replacement, and the message is peace on Earth and goodwill toward not just those who have the right teachers and the correct understandings.

Brick, I don't quite understand you. What has being set free from the Law to do with having to say the right magick words? It's in the law where you find prescriptions of all kinds of things.

As it was, the jewish system was not working. It had no grace in it, because Moses brought only law and love and grace where brought by Jesus. And I would suggest the jewish system was not entirely honest anyway. How can a God of love start wars as we find them in the Torah and in the Tanach. So much suffering resulted from that war and I am thankful that now I can believe that God wants to protect us from wars in his will for us.

You say the bible is enough as a guide, but if you look in the world you can find it is not. The literal interpretation of the bible leads to a terrible exclusivism where only the hardline devoted loyalists to God can get salvation. The others can not. I have studied this. The bible has many good verses and ideas in it, but others are so wrong and cruel. If you accept them you only become cruel yourself.

My dad died 7 years ago as a staunch atheist. He was nevertheless a good man and we had much love for each other. If I go by legalistic christianity then my dad had no chance and suffers in hell now. If I go by open christianity he lives in Heaven along with everyone else and I can have some optimism. Do you not see that conservative christianity destroys optimism? And furthermore it invalidates every spirituality except its own. What the muslim feels in dhikr or what a hindu feels when he worships Shiwa or what an atheist thinks of the cosmos becomes entirely irrelvant. This was it becomes a despotic religion who has a dictator at the top in Jesus, not a Savior.

Hi Trablano ;

I think Christians should seek to understand multiple points of view and should try to view them honestly and clearly.

1) Regarding the concept that God may speak to non-christians and "pagans"
While I do not believe that there are multiple Gods of equal, but differing powers (that might be found in an overgeneralized and over simplified model of paganism), I do not see any reason why God or his spirit (inside the Judeo-Christian model) should not communicate with all honest individuals who seek to learn truth and are engaged in an honest spiritual journey to greater and greater spiritual truths.

2) Varying language and varying symbol sets
If I am correct that the spirit of God is able and does communicate to non-Christians, then it only makes sense the he would speak to them in a symbol set which THEY can understand.

For example, just as an angel/messenger from heaven might speak to shepherds in the field or to Jesus’ mother Mary, in their own language and in their own symbol set, or to Joseph in dreams as recorded in the New Testament Records, the same angel might speak to another individual in another language, and in another symbol set, including the symbol set found in non-Christian world views.

3) The egalitarian model of Communication with all the honest in heart despite their native bias
Thus, I like the rational and logical Christian model where the spirit of God is able and willing to speak to all individuals in the earth regardless of their native cultures, languages and their native religion. I like the egalitarian Christian Latter Day Saint model where that God is able and willing to speak to all individuals in all cultures and in all languages and in all symbol sets and that he honors the intent of hearts. I do not see a reason why God would not honor the agnostic who is honest in heart any less than a theistic who is honest in heart when both are equal in their desire to seek greater levels of truth.

4) Many religions share certain moral and historical characteristics with Christianity
Another historical principle at play is the concept of doctrinal “debris”. If, the early Judeo-Christians were correct, that Adam was taught concerning a future savior/messiah and taught moral doctrines then it makes sense that certain teachings would have spread out through his children into various lands and that remnants of these moral teachings and early traditions should be found among multiple religions in multiple geographic areas and in multiple versions having a greater and lessor degree of parallels.

Obviously my models are tentative and limited to my personal understanding. Good luck in coming to your own understanding and beliefs on these issues Trablano.

Clear
εισεειω

trablano said:

Paul argues that Jesus fulfilled the entire old testament, which is also given as "The Law" in pauline scripture. Does that mean that now a christian can also look for other gods to get to know them? Because, if you peruse pagan life, they also have experiences of their gods. They get visions, answers to prayers, visitations, healings, etc. So these gods exist, but some christians claim they are only demons. Is that true? And if not, can a christian explore, for example, Zeus or Krishna, etc?

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I like Paul's lengthy explanation about how everyone should be convinced by their own conscious what practices they wish to follow, so long as it is to them how they honor God. From Romans 14:

So, if nothing is "unclean", then if one can relate to God through say, Krishna, and veneration of Krishna brings them closer to God, and in their mind they understand that "all things are done to the Lord," how is this sin? How is holding forth Love, over and above any "doctrinal purity" not worshipping God? Doesn't the notion of "doctrinal uncleanness", contradict Paul saying "nothing is unclean in itself"?

If you worship other gods, it doesn't make sense to call yourself a Christian. The Bible and tradition teaches that these other "gods" are idols at best, demons at worst. (You could make an animist argument that some of them may be nature spirits but even then you shouldn't worship them.) Even the Greco-Roman elites (the philosophers, for example) were in the process of abandoning the pagan gods and moving towards a sort of monotheism when Christianity came on the scene. The common people were apparently fed up with them, too, seeing how quickly they converted to Christianity. We tend to have a romanticized image of pre-Christian Greece and Rome but it wasn't that pleasant. Same with the other pre-Christian cultures.

Buddhism has some worthy things, but its worldview doesn't fit a Christian one. It would be easier to combine Christianity and parts of Buddhism than Christianity and paganism, though.

Well I believe in other gods but they are smaller than Jehovah. So you could call me a henotheist, if you will. The other gods were only forbidden for the jews, and well I am not a jew. But the psalms are full of references to Jehovah as the God of gods, and that these other gods are simply divine beings with whom God associates and which he has put in charge of different cultures. It makes no sense denying them. Hindus and Indians and Hellenists and other pagans and buddhists have plenty of religious and spiritual experiences just like christianity. So I believe in religious progress and not in returning to the medievals where christians were here and the others were there and there was little contact between the cultures. We live in a big networked world and this reflects in my theology too.

trablano said:

Well I believe in other gods but they are smaller than Jehovah. So you could call me a henotheist, if you will. The other gods were only forbidden for the jews, and well I am not a jew. But the psalms are full of references to Jehovah as the God of gods, and that these other gods are simply divine beings with whom God associates and which he has put in charge of different cultures. It makes no sense denying them. Hindus and Indians and Hellenists and other pagans and buddhists have plenty of religious and spiritual experiences just like christianity. So I believe in religious progress and not in returning to the medievals where christians were here and the others were there and there was little contact between the cultures. We live in a big networked world and this reflects in my theology too.

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Sure, it took some time for true monotheism to develop among the Jews but even the verses that seem to reference other "gods" as actually being deities are belittling them and showing their powerlessness as compared to the true God. There's a number of verses in the OT and the NT that declare there being only one God: What Does the Bible Say About One God?

Like I said before, the options, Biblically, are that the other "gods" are idols at best and demons at worst. Christianity is monotheistic. You can call yourself what you please, but you have to ask if it adds up, if it checks out. Polytheism is not Christian and the Bible declares as such.

Maybe the question is what do you feel is lacking in Christ that you feel the need to chase after other gods? What do they have to offer you? Even you say that they are less powerful than the Creator, so why bother with them?

I go to other gods because this is more authentic. To give me a broader view of Heaven with more options. To justify the non-christian religions as well as the christian confessions. I don't want to be an ideologist. I belong to a faith, not to a lawbook. I'm not a jew believing in a literal Thora. We've been better than this already. The translated bibles do not offer as much as getting into the hebrew and into the multiple meanings of the text that appear then. The literal bible simply isn't right and true... and if it isn't, we're with Jesus who nailed it to the cross and introduced spiritual faith and worship.

trablano said:

Paul argues that Jesus fulfilled the entire old testament, which is also given as "The Law" in pauline scripture. Does that mean that now a christian can also look for other gods to get to know them? Because, if you peruse pagan life, they also have experiences of their gods. They get visions, answers to prayers, visitations, healings, etc. So these gods exist, but some christians claim they are only demons. Is that true? And if not, can a christian explore, for example, Zeus or Krishna, etc?

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We have to be careful here. There's a difference between the Law of Moses and the commandments of Christ. We Gentile Christians were exempt from following the Law of Moses, but we still have to obey Christ's commandments. And that includes worshiping only God. "And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God." (2 Corinthians 6:15-17)

Yes, we are exempt from following the Mosaic Law, but still we must keep free from sin. Idolatry is a sin. Serving other gods is a sin. "For all the gods of the Gentiles are devils", as it says in some translations of Psalm 96:5. The other two popular translations is that the gods of the Gentiles are either "idols" or "nothing". Also in Psalm 115:
4 Their idols are silver and gold,
The work of men’s hands.
5 They have mouths, but they do not speak;
Eyes they have, but they do not see;
6 They have ears, but they do not hear;
Noses they have, but they do not smell;
7 They have hands, but they do not handle;
Feet they have, but they do not walk;
Nor do they mutter through their throat.
8 Those who make them are like them;
So is everyone who trusts in them.

We have the Living God, Who hears us when we call to Him. He is always available to us. He created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. More importantly, we have a God Who became man and died to put our sins to death, and Who rose from the dead to give us new life. What need do we have to seek out other gods?

For me, I found it elucidating to study the myths and typologies of the old pagan gods and see how Christ fulfills those typologies. The old pagan religions were shadows, previews of what was to come in the Gospel. But now that we have Christ, Who is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and now that the Kingdom of God within us and we ourselves are temples of the Holy Spirit, what need is there to worship anything else?

Hello Shiranui,

I'm having my problems with the bible. The God it reveals to us isn't such a good God. Already in the first five books of the bible there is Genocide, Mass Killing of humans and animals through a worldwide Flood, an oppressive law that demanded capital punishment for nothings, etc. I cannot believe in a God on that basis. That's why I am questioning whether much of the bible is to be taken literally. And with that questioning, I also question whether the one god rule is to be taken literally too. If you browse through the documented spiritual experiences of mankind, you find everything from jewish and christian experiences to muslim ones, hindu ones, shamanistic ones, pagan ones etc. That's why I am not solely a christian. I examine everything and shun nothing really. When I still believed in the evangelical brand of christianity, I was supposed to consider lost and doomed to hell more than half of mankind, just for belonging to other religions or for being atheists. I cannot accept this either. That's why I think spirituality is different and we really belong to good and kind albeit not almighty spirit beings coming close to what we call gods. I suppose one could consider me New Age for that, and so be it. It's my understanding of faith and religion.

trablano said:

Hello Shiranui,

I'm having my problems with the bible. The God it reveals to us isn't such a good God. Already in the first five books of the bible there is Genocide,

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As far as the history of the invasion of Canaan by the Israelite tribes is concerned, I will note that we so far have precious little archaeological or anthropological evidence to suggest that the story of the Exodus and arrival of the Holy Land ever happened as described in the Bible. It's been hypothesized that the Israelites were among the Hyksos or the Sea Peoples which invaded Lower Egypt in its weakened state sometime around the 1200's BC or thereabouts, but given that evidence on either of these groups is scant, we have no way of knowing for sure.

It does bear mentioning that the Israelites were much the same as the peoples around them--staking their claim to lands and fighting violently to protect what's theirs and expand their territory. God had to work with what He had, and He had to communicate with them in a way that they understood. To a Bronze-age Middle Easterner of any stripe, you knew the gods were happy with you if you had lots of money, good crops, a good home, and many children. You knew the gods were angry with you if you got sick, if foreign powers invaded your country, if your crops failed, if droughts came and if civil war was common. The Israelites had much the same worldview, and so God worked with that until the people of Israel became more sensitive to spiritual realities. Modern-day Jews (I'm quite sure) have a radically different way of knowing where they stand with God as opposed to Israelites living around 900 BC. Was it pretty? No. Does God still communicate with people that way today? Maybe, only if they truly, truly need it. If you look at the history in the Bible, we see God slowly softening, appealing more to conscience and to the covenant He made with His people than threatening Israel's and Israelites' livelihood. He is like a father Who is strict with His children while they are young and only understand reward and punishment, but as the children grow older and develop a moral compass, He is able to relax and operate with them according to their higher moral reasoning, which did not exist before. Whereas previously He would have to put the kids in the time-out corner, take away the sippy cup and the snack and the trip to the park to make them realize the wrong that they did, now it's simply enough to say "I'm not mad at you, I'm just disappointed. I raised you better, didn't I?" to effect the same level of compunction.

Mass Killing of humans and animals through a worldwide Flood,

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As far as the killing of all humanity in the Flood is concerned, it is mentioned in the Bible that evil was on men's minds and hearts continually--i.e. they were the worst possible people imaginable, stabbing each other in the backs (probably often literally), engaging in whatever sins you care to name, murdering, stealing, raping, pillaging, etc. It basically left God with the option to hit the reset button, because the people weren't going to change their ways no matter what. In a way, giving mortality to man is even something of a mercy of God--it means that even if we are only involved with sin, our sin will still have an end, and we will not go on sinning forever.

an oppressive law that demanded capital punishment for nothings, etc.

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A legal code like this was not too far removed from other legal systems of the day. God gave the Israelites a system of laws which they could understand and accept as making sense. 21st-century American freedoms and republican democracy would have been utterly alien to them.

I cannot believe in a God on that basis. That's why I am questioning whether much of the bible is to be taken literally.

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The early history? Sure. By all means, get into Biblical scholarship and see how the Bible was put together and by whom. That will tell you a far greater deal about how the Biblical authors viewed and related to God, which will help you understand what He is really like and how He has acted in the world throughout history.

And with that questioning, I also question whether the one god rule is to be taken literally too. If you browse through the documented spiritual experiences of mankind, you find everything from jewish and christian experiences to muslim ones, hindu ones, shamanistic ones, pagan ones etc.

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I cannot comment on other religions' spiritual experiences, so I have nothing to offer here.

When I still believed in the evangelical brand of christianity, I was supposed to consider lost and doomed to hell more than half of mankind, just for belonging to other religions or for being atheists. I cannot accept this either.

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Nor can I. In the Orthodox Church, two common proverbs are "The Holy Spirit blows where He wills" and "We know where the Church is; we don't know where she isn't". That is to say, God is perfectly capable and willing to save those who aren't part of His Church on this earth, in this life. We cannot know who will be saved or damned; those who are outside the Church, God will judge, not us (1 Corinthians 5:13). I think we will find that many non-Christians will find themselves counted among the righteous at the Last Judgement, for having followed their God-given conscience and done what is good (Romans 2:14-16), and to them Jesus will say, "Well done, good and faithful servant" (Matthew 25:21).

That's why I think spirituality is different and we really belong to good and kind albeit not almighty spirit beings coming close to what we call gods. I suppose one could consider me New Age for that, and so be it. It's my understanding of faith and religion.

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I think getting bogged down with worries of "Who will be saved, and who will be damned?" and "Why did this happen?" does hinder true spirituality.

From what I understand (from having had a Hindu teacher), Hinduism isn't something you can convert to. You have to be born one. So if a Christian was born to a Hindu family, they could explore Hinduism.

But yes, Christians can be interested in and syncretized with other religions. Just look at me

I believe that there is only one god, but that this god is seen in different ways to different people.

It doesn't make any sense to me that people would worships god(s) that don't exist. This supreme being answers everyones prayers no matter who they pray to or think god is.

I know I am in the minority of Christians that feel this way. But it's what makes the most sense to me.